Ultimate Rabbit Colors for Dummies Thread

[Susie570]

Argh!! I got my genetic letter stuff wrong then

I meant Extension and non-Extension

 

[Dood]

Since they are on different colour loci they do not effect each other

A_ Es_ is a steel
A_ E_ is a chestnut
A_ ej_ is a harli
A_ ee is a fawn

at_ Es_ is a steel otter
at_ E_ is an otter
at_ ej_ is a harli otter
at_ ee is a torted otter (AKA fox)

aa Es_ is a self steel
aa E_ is a self
aa ej_ is a torted harli
aa ee is a tort

 

[Susie570]

Since they are on different colour loci they do not effect each other

I meant to ask about Extension and non-extension (that's what I was reading about)

In other words, all agouti rabbits are non-e, right?
But are all non-e rabbits agouti?
(sorry for the confusion)

 

[alforddm]

I redid my color matrix and added images. I remember you saying that pictures helped. I hope this helps some. I don't have images for all colors. I thought Steel would be easy but I couldn't find a good image. Maybe Zass has one?

I stole most of the images out of the gallery here at rabbit talk. If anyone has a problem with their image being used just let me know and I'll find another one to use.

 

[twr]

Argh!! I got my genetic letter stuff wrong then

I don't think you did.

(EDIT: I meant E to be Extention and ee to be non-extension... sorry... *facepalm*)

E_ is (Full/Normal) Extension, and ee is non-extension.

In other words, all agouti rabbits are non-e, right?
But are all non-e rabbits agouti?
(sorry for the confusion)

Still no to both.

A rabbit that shows the agouti pattern is (among other things) always A_E_ (agouti and full extension), so it is not "non-extension" (excuse the double negative). A tort is aaee (self and non-extension), so it is non-extension but is not agouti.

I'm assuming by "non-e" you meant "non-extension". If not, I'm the one confused and the above is irrelevant.

I'm wondering if perhaps you are getting confused by the many different ways the same term can be used. Agouti can be:

1. The name of a gene. "The agouti gene has three alleles, agouti (symbol A), tan (symbol a[sup]t[/sup]) and self/non-agouti (symbol a)."*
2. The name of an allele of that gene. "The agouti gene has three alleles, agouti (symbol A), tan (symbol at) and self/non-agouti (symbol a)."*
3. The specific appearance of a wild rabbit. This appearance requires the presence of the agouti allele in the agouti gene.
4. A colour or pattern which has visual similarities to that of a wild rabbit and requires the presence of the agouti allele in the agouti gene. "Chinchilla (or steel) is an agouti pattern".
5. A colour or pattern which is at first glance very different to that of a wild rabbit but also requires the presence of the agouti allele in the agouti gene. "A fawn might look like an orange-coloured self but actually it is an agouti.", "All fawns are agouti".
6. A colour or pattern which has visual similarities to that of a wild rabbit but is not due to the presence of the agouti allele in the agouti gene. "The agouti eye-circles mean this is a tort-otter (at_ee), not a tort (aaee)."
7. Any rabbit known to have an agouti allele. "My REW is secretly an agouti".

*Although "allele" is strictly correct, most people don't use the term and use "gene" for both. I feel bad whichever I use - the first is obscure and may be seen as pedantic, the second is imprecise in a way that can lead to confusion. On this forum it seems to be common to use "gene locus" for meaning 1 and "gene" for meaning 2, which seems like a practical compromise.

Some of these may be regarded as incorrect usage, but I think I have come across all these cases in practice. One could write similar lists for extension, non-extension,self, etc.

For images for a particular genetic code I recommend the rabbitcolors site.

 

[Susie570]

Oh wow, thanks for clearing that up. Sort of. From the article I was reading on extension vs non, I guess I got confused because extension is supposed to mean that the color 'extends' all the way from the base of the hair shaft to the end. But I guess I didn't understand what they were saying. Back to the drawing board. :lol:

 

[twr]

In the genetics literature I have, the gene E is called "Extension of black". It helps control the coloured pattern created along the length of each hair. The allele E is called "Normal extension" and needs an agouti allele at the agouti locus in order to function normally. It creates a black tip to the hair (of a particular length) followed by an orange-coloured mid-band (again of a particular width) with the remainder of the hair (down to the skin) grey. This grey undercolour occurs because although the "Extension of black" gene has switched the colour to black, a poorly understood mechanism has reduced the colour intensity so some of the whiteness of the hair shows through. The allele ES (steel) causes the black colour to extend further along the hair, reducing the width of the mid band. In some cases ES (ie the steel allele of the extension gene) can cause the black colour to extend over the whole length of the hair. Perhaps this is what was being described?

 

[Rainey]

I've been trying to follow this thread, but have to admit that my eyes still just glaze over when I try to read the various explanations. A few terms begin to make sense with repetition. I have a really basic question about color as it applies to my meat mutts. I started with 2 does that were sold to me as NZWs and a buck that I bought as a blue silver fox. I was surprised last year, our first season, that for all 5 of our litters all the kits looked black at birth. As they furred out some were really black, some more some kind of grey and some had golden brown tipped hairs. The ones we kept for breeding developed silvering as they matured. When I thought about it, I figured that REW is albino and so recessive and that is why none of the kits were REW. Is it right that we'd only get that if somewhere in the bucks background there had been a REW?
This year we're breeding 3 of the does born last year and the first 2 litters the kits, instead of being all black to start with, are some pink skinned and some black and some in between. None have furred out yet. Will the pink ones have white fur? Can someone explain to a color dummy why last year's kits were all black and this year's mixed? Do REWs carry genes for other color or will any colors we ever get have to come from the SF buck as long as we continue to breed with kits from the original trio?
Sorry if this is too dumbed down even for a colors for dummies thread.

 

[Dood]

All rabbits have the same colour genes, including REW (and himilayans and BEW) the difference with these 3 colours is their white colour genes hide the other 11+ colour genes and we cannot guess what they are unless she have infomation on any coloured kits they've produced

All the coloured kits fathered by your REW buck secretly carry this gene, because it is recessive to their mothers colour gene it is not evident in their coats.

When breed to another carrier of this gene the two "match up" and make a white rabbit

Hope this helps

 

[Susie570]

I've been trying to follow this thread, but have to admit that my eyes still just glaze over when I try to read the various explanations. A few terms begin to make sense with repetition.

Don't feel bad.
My ultimate goal with the thread is to go back and edit the opening post as I learn solid rules about colors and can them 'pass them along' in more simple terms.

It might be a fool's errand, but I can be pretty determined.
I never fail to be humbled at how patient and helpful the folks on this board are with their explanations, some of which I've forced them to repeat many times in different ways.

It takes time for this stuff to sink in and I swear, the minute I think it HAS sunk in... I realize I'm still about to drown. <br /><br /> __________ Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:54 pm __________ <br /><br /> Here is the statement from the article that c caused my confusion

The E/e gene controls whether the basic color on the rabbit (black, blue, chocolate, or lilac) is extended all of the way to the end of the hair shaft or whether the basic color stops and another finishes the hair shaft (such as the orange color on the back of a black tortoiseshell). When a rabbit has full extension, it tends to look the same color all over, such as with a blue rabbit. When there is non-extension, such as with a black tortoiseshell, the rabbit takes on a shaded look since the shorter hairs on the belly, guard hairs, feet and muzzle get only the basic color (they are not long enough to get the other color that finishes off the longer hairs).

 

[Rainey]

All rabbits have the same colour genes, including REW (and himilayans and BEW) the difference with these 3 colours is their white colour genes hide the other 11+ colour genes and we cannot guess what they are unless she have infomation on any coloured kits they've produced

All the coloured kits fathered by your REW buck secretly carry this gene, because it is recessive to their mothers colour gene it is not evident in their coats.

When breed to another carrier of this gene the two "match up" and make a white rabbit

Hope this helps

The buck is a SF--it was the original does that were NZW and now they've been replaced by the daughters of the better one. Those does are being bred back to the SF buck. I think what you're saying is that I won't see REWs in the litters until/unless I eventually replace the SF buck with one from these breedings. That buck would carry the gene for white from the original doe. Even though the rabbits I'd be breeding at that point would not be white, they could produce white kits?
And what can you tell about the eventual color when furred out from the color of the kits at birth?

Again--sorry if these questions are too basic (non-scientific) for this thread. They're not anything I need to know for my rabbit-raising purposes. Just curiosity

 

[Dood]

Syberchick70
That statement seems to be discussing self rabbits and not agouti rabbits

The full extension gene in agouti gives the typical ring pattern of dark band, light band, dark band along the length of the fur.

Non-extension in agouti rabbits reduces the dark band (hence the term "non extension") and by default extends the light band and crowds out the dark band on the end of the fur and makes chestnut rabbits look orange/fawn/red and chinchilla rabbits frosty/ermine

__________ Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:26 am __________

Rainey
Correct, if your SF buck does not secretly carry a REW gene then you won't get any whites

If you keep his coloured son from one of the REW does, the son will carry this gene and when bred to a coloured doe who carries REW (or a REW) you will get white kits

 

[Joanie]

Hello,

I am new here in the forum and no native speaker. Therefore, i ask for forgiveness for mine bad in english and if i write a little bit wrong, so that there are hopefully no misunderstandings.
I have some theoretical genetic knowledge with the colours of the rabbits, but only a little practical experiences. Therefore, this subject is very important for me.
I find it great if you want to gather here the description of the single colours. But to me is with read struck that it is very difficult to gather the single information about the single colours from many contributions. Please, is not angry or misunderstand, but i have a request. For me and maybe also for others it would be the biggest help if at the end of following informations could be written down.

1. Exact description of every single colour with banding of the hair, undercolor, belly side ...
2. How the animal looks as a young animal and how as an adult animal, there are there differences
3. How one can distinguish this colour from the similar colours, for example, siam from sallander or chocolate tort from black tort ...
4. Photos of all colours and her specific features are helpful

Many thanks for yours a lot of trouble.

Dear Greetings Joanie

 

[Rainey]

All rabbits have the same colour genes, including REW (and himilayans and BEW) the difference with these 3 colours is their white colour genes hide the other 11+ colour genes and we cannot guess what they are unless she have infomation on any coloured kits they've produced

The white comes from the C-locus and is the most recessive option there? What is carried at the other 4 loci is hidden, but a REW could carry anything in those loci and it would only become evident when bred to a rabbit with something else in the C-locus which would be dominant over the white? So with the rabbits bred to be REW, the C-locus is the only one for which of which anything is known?

 

[Susie570]

Syberchick70
That statement seems to be discussing self rabbits and not agouti rabbits

The full extension gene in agouti gives the typical ring pattern of dark band, light band, dark band along the length of the fur.

Non-extension in agouti rabbits reduces the dark band (hence the term "non extension") and by default extends the light band and crowds out the dark band on the end of the fur and makes chestnut rabbits look orange/fawn/red and chinchilla rabbits frosty/ermine

THAT explains it... THANK YOU!! lol

After reading the article, I thought that all full extension coats were self coats *facepalm* <br /><br /> __________ Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:44 pm __________ <br /><br />

1. Exact description of every single colour with banding of the hair, undercolor, belly side ...
2. How the animal looks as a young animal and how as an adult animal, there are there differences
3. How one can distinguish this colour from the similar colours, for example, siam from sallander or chocolate tort from black tort ...
4. Photos of all colours and her specific features are helpful

Many thanks for yours a lot of trouble.

Dear Greetings Joanie

That is my intention, except I had not planned to include descriptions of how they look as kits. That would be a good goal to have.

This post will take time to complete... it may NEVER be complete But I'm continuing to work on it!

 

[alforddm]

Hello,

1. Exact description of every single colour with banding of the hair, undercolor, belly side ...

I'm not sure that you understand what you are asking with this. A list with every coat color combination would be 3,628,800 entries long. That is just listing "known" color mutations and does not include fur type.

 

[Susie570]

Hello,

1. Exact description of every single colour with banding of the hair, undercolor, belly side ...

I'm not sure that you understand what you are asking with this. A list with every coat color combination would be 3,628,800 entries long. That is just listing "known" color mutations and does not include fur type.

My plan is simply to include a very simple, clear explanation of the basic coat color combination... that will have to suffice

 

[alforddm]

Well, I was wrong anyway lol it wouldn't be quite that long. I was thinking every single gene combination which would include things like Dd which don't alter the color. It would still be pretty long though :lol:

 

[Joanie]

@ alforddm
@Syberchick70

Excuse me, i know that it is to be provided quite a lot of work for all colours an exact description.
But it would be a worthwhile job which are interested absolutely to many people in the genetics of the rabbits would help.
One must not make everything all at once, one has time for it, one can start with the easy colours and work the way up then forward.
A good idea would be maybe to be opened for every colour own tread, it is clear and everybody is able to do itself about the colour widely read which interests him.
About the searching function of the forum everybody can find the single colour descriptions.
If one makes everything in a tread, it becomes very long and unclear and i do not know whether later somebody reads so many sides.
These are only thoughts of me which you can take as a suggestion. If somebody has better proposals, this is no problem.
I think that to provide the idea from syberchick70 such a description of the single colours is very good. But I also think that one must make this description maybe in the right form, with it them useful is for everybody.

:shock: :lol: :roll:

 

[alforddm]

Excuse me, i know that it is to be provided quite a lot of work for all colours an exact description.
But it would be a worthwhile job which are interested absolutely to many people in the genetics of the rabbits would help.
One must not make everything all at once, one has time for it, one can start with the easy colours and work the way up then forward.

This is why it is important to learn the genetics and how they interact and different genes change the appearance. You end up memorizing less and have an understanding of how things interact. If all you do is memorize the different colors and how they appear you don't really understand what happens when you breed two different colors together. As some on rabbittalk said before (forgive me I forgot who)....It's like learning to multiply double digits instead of memorizing all possible combinations.