Ultimate Rabbit Colors for Dummies Thread

[Susie570]

Thanks for the informative thread, unfortunately, I am still as confused as ever.
So the terms, lt brown, dark brown, white, off white, black, reddish, gray, mixed, and tannish reddish blackish brown are not acceptable?

It's going to be WAAY more informative, and easy to understand, when I get finished. Stay posted! I'm learning as I'm going along, and trying to translate everything for the layperson, who may have little to no interest in breeding and genetics.

 

[twr]

I hope this helps...

A hair follicle is the pocket in the skin that holds the hair root.
Don't call a hair a follicle, call it a hair.

The "default" colour of hair is white. To get coloured hair you have to add a pigment. Rabbits in general can produce three coloured pigments (red phaeomelanin, brown eumelanin and black eumelanin) but each individual rabbit can produce at most two of these (red phaeomelanin plus either brown eumelanin or black eumelanin). So some of the colour variation is due to switching between the available pigments and the rest is due to the amount of pigment and how it is distributed in the hair (spread evenly or clumped together).

I've seen 'dense' and 'dark' used as the opposite of dilute (ie non-dilute) but I don't recommend it. I think it is clearer to just say 'not dilute'.

I beleive Lutino (aka pink-eyed dilution aka p) removes eumelanin while leaving phaeomelanin more-or-less untouched. But it is a little obscure and not at all related to chinchilla, so making a connection between the two would be misleading.

I found it far easier to get to grips with what all the known colour genes are and what they do (at least in principle) than to get a handle on the huge array of arbitrary names inconsistently applied to the resulting colours (which are much more variable you might expect from the genetic model). I'm not sure whether you are trying to cover one or the other or both. If you are trying to cover the genetics then I think the earlier suggestion to start with the wild type agouti pattern was a good one.

Explaining things simply and clearly is actually very difficult. I don't claim to be any good at it. Your goal is much more ambitious than you might think. Good luck.

aaejej=?

 

[Susie570]

It DOES help, twr. All of the posts are helpful, but I'm trying to sift through and clarify as much as possible. I will change the 'follicle' reference to 'hair'.

I realize this is ambitious. That's never stopped me before.

 

[alforddm]

The "default" colour of hair is white. To get coloured hair you have to add a pigment. Rabbits in general can produce three coloured pigments (red phaeomelanin, brown eumelanin and black eumelanin) but each individual rabbit can produce at most two of these (red phaeomelanin plus either brown eumelanin or black eumelanin). So some of the colour variation is due to switching between the available pigments and the rest is due to the amount of pigment and how it is distributed in the hair (spread evenly or clumped together).

The default is not white. It is ALWAYS color. White only occurs when something is broken (ie by a mutation). Also, there are not three default pigments there are only two eumelanin and pheomelanin. Brown is caused by a mutation that alters the shape of the eumelanin (black) pigment granules so that they reflect light differently. It does not however, make it a separate type of pigment. It is still eumelanin.

 

[Dood]

To clarify I believe TWR meant that fur without any pigment looks white, not that REW or BEW rabbits were the default genotype.

And I think twr was referring to "brown" eumelanin as in the sepia colour seen in black based sables and not "brown" as in chocolate which is immature/defective black eumelanin.

twr was refering to chocolate which I would not consider a different pigment as it is a immature/defective form of eumelanin but we can agree to disagree

 

[twr]

The default is not white. It is ALWAYS color. White only occurs when something is broken (ie by a mutation). Also, there are not three default pigments there are only two eumelanin and pheomelanin. Brown is caused by a mutation that alters the shape of the eumelanin (black) pigment granules so that they reflect light differently. It does not however, make it a separate type of pigment. It is still eumelanin.

My first draft (before the board ate it) said something more like "Unpigmented hair is white", which I assume would have caused no disagreement. By "default" I was thinking of reducing a hair to its bare essentials, and from that point of view, pigment is an optional extra. I assume you're objecting because "default" in the context of hair colour is more usually used to describe the wild-type pigment system as defaulting to make eumelanin, which is a fair point.

On eumelanin I hope we're both agreed that black and brown are both eumelanins, and are chemically very similar but also subtly different. I was thinking that because they are different colours it would be normal to refer to them as different (albeit very closely related) pigments. Perhaps there is some precise technical definition of "pigment" that I'm unaware of that makes this wrong but I think this is just a different choice of emphasis. I'm emphasising their difference and you are emphasizing their similarity. If you are thinking that the difference in colour is purely down to the shape of the melanosomes (brown rounder than black if I remember correctly) then I disagree, but I suspect we are both over the edge of what is known for certain and I'd have to go check my references before seriously arguing the point.

I've just seen Doods post. I think my response to that is:
Yes, that's what I was thinking.
No, I was referring to "brown" as in chocolate, the abnormal variant of black eumelanin that results from loss of function of TYRP1. So maybe I'm in a minority on that one.

 

[alforddm]

My first draft (before the board ate it) said something more like "Unpigmented hair is white", which I assume would have caused no disagreement. By "default" I was thinking of reducing a hair to its bare essentials, and from that point of view, pigment is an optional extra. I assume you're objecting because "default" in the context of hair colour is more usually used to describe the wild-type pigment system as defaulting to make eumelanin, which is a fair point

Yes, that was most of my objection. It is a bit deeper than that, however, because I feel that by taking this approach it makes it harder to explain how "white" rabbits (or any white mammals) have "hidden" color genes.

As far as the black vs brown eumelanins. The part of your statement I had problems with was

three coloured pigments

. I feel that this is technically incorrect. I do not have a problem with explaining it as brown and black eumelanin. A few papers for support

the brownish black eumelanin and the reddish yellow pheomelanin. (Source http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2071942) and From "Characterization of the dog Agouti gene and a nonagouti mutation in German Shepherd Dogs." there is are two pigment types found in mammalian hair: eumelanin (brown/black) and pheomelanin (yellow/red).

I'm not exactly sure that even saying brown or black eumelanins is completely correct as there are mutations in TYRP1 in humans that result in very "blond" hair in otherwise dark populations (OCA3). Since TYRP1 mutations are only known to affect eumelanin it would be interesting to study the pigment structure in those affected. However, as far as I know such a study has not been done.

EDIT:
I just wanted to add that I enjoy reading your posts and I realize that you are a very knowledgeable person (and probably much more articulate that I). I hope I'm not coming across as argumentative and that you understand what I'm trying to say.

 

[Zass]

twr :welcome: to rt!


As to the conversation....
You guys have gone WAY beyond color genetics simplified.

Still, I find the who thing rather fascinating, and am enjoying seeing the alternative opinions presented.

opcorn:

 

[Susie570]

My first draft (before the board ate it) said something more like "Unpigmented hair is white", which I assume would have caused no disagreement. By "default" I was thinking of reducing a hair to its bare essentials, and from that point of view, pigment is an optional extra.

I understood what you meant, although I can see why one might object to the way you stated it.

The rest of it is still confusing, but I'm getting there. I fear I'll have a degree in rabbit genetics before I'm through. <br /><br /> __________ Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:19 pm __________ <br /><br />

As to the conversation....
You guys have gone WAY beyond color genetics simplified.

Still, I find the who thing rather fascinating, and am enjoying seeing the alternative opinions presented.

opcorn:

Indeed, Zass! Which is why I'm making it my goal to go back and edit and re-edit my OP with correct, but simplified information. I believe it CAN be done and I aim to try. If Quantum physics can be simplified, so can rabbit colors!!! It's always impressive to see these folks delve into the exact science of genetics, but the average person starts to slowly back away when the 'alphabet soup' starts coming out.

 

[Zass]

By the time you are finished, I fear you will find the letter codes we use to describe genotypes to be the easiest way to understand all the colors. (the colors make a whole lot more sense when you know how they play off of each other)

Particularly when you run into how many colors have different names and sometimes totally different phenotypes across breeds.


For example, what exactly is a fawn???

 

[Susie570]

That's probably true, Zass, but I think it's possible to break most of it down without all of that. I guess I'll find out.

Imean, the simplification may not be perfect explanations, but hopefully will be good enough for the average layperson with a pet rabbit to read through and say ' oh! That's what color my bunny is!' And be satisfied with it.

 

[Zass]

I've been over on facebook trying to explain to people how a silver tipped steel colored mutt isn't likely to be part silver fox, or silver the breed, because neither breed should even have the genes to throw a silver tipped steel in a first generation cross (though a sf possibly could, if it's from one of the rew carrying lines).

It's really only coincidence that both silvered and silver tip steel can look black flecked with white. Even more confusing for people when they are both pushed into the ticked category, despite being genetically very different.

One is a chinchilla with steel, and the other is a self black with silvering
A_ B_Cchd D_ Es_
VS
aa B_ C_D_ E_ sisi

Also, visually, an orange and a chocolate tort can be very very close. I may have initially thought my chocolate torts to be orange, if I didn't understand that it is impossible to get orange from a black and tort.

Orange
A_B_C_D_ee

chocolate tort
aa bb C_ D_ ee

Pet owners aren't about to learn all that, and it's fine if they aren't really 100% sure what color their rabbit is, since us breeders still frequently have to ask who it's parent's were before we can ID it with confidence :razz:

 

[akane]

You can describe a color and you can explain why that color differs but I don't think you can convey what offspring come from and what parents make various colors without going in to the genotype. You just can't get the relationship between the colors by description only. The arba already has a phenotype description of every color in a breed and you can find many groupings by phenotypes. I hate it. It makes no sense when you are trying to breed the rabbits and pay attention to color without understanding the gene designations. Then there are the wool breeds which look different and have completely different naming systems for some color groups. The debate of the pearl colors caused confusion for awhile. As one site describes it the length of the hair changes the effect of the color because all the pigment is stretched over a longer area in wool breeds or condensed in a shorter area if you have rex coats.

 

[JenerationX]

I found this today.... it's got some great pic examples of kits, juniors, seniors of a lot of colors. It helped seeing some of the similar colors next to each other.

http://wildriverrabbitry.weebly.com/sha ... guide.html

 

[Susie570]

One is a chinchilla with steel, and the other is a self black with silvering

Also, visually, an orange and a chocolate tort can be very very close.

Pet owners aren't about to learn all that, and it's fine if they aren't really 100% sure what color their rabbit is, since us breeders still frequently have to ask who it's parent's were before we can ID it with confidence :razz:

You're exactly right about pet owners not wanting to learn all of that and the way I would handle that is something like this: A chinchilla with steel and a self black with silvering look the same to the naked eye. [Description][Picture] The only way to know the difference, for sure, is to know the colors of the parents, or by breeding them. If your rabbit looks like this, you have no way to know what it's parents look like and you have no intention to breed it for a certain color, feel free to call it either one.

After all of the basic colors and patterns have been addressed, I will provide some links to the genetic info for those who want to get deeper into it.

__________ Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:13 am __________

Here is a question: Stuff like 'silvering', (which I guess is also 'ticking'), would that be considered a coat pattern, or an accent to a coat pattern? If it's an accent, can you folks think of other accents to coat patterns? <br /><br /> __________ Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:25 am __________ <br /><br /> As a side note, I also want to include the acronyms commonly used on this site where possible. I find a lot of them confusing, but I think I get it figured out eventually.

 

[Dood]

True Silvering is on Si-locus (Silvering) and manifests as random fur follicles stopping production of pigment and turning white, the rabbits develops more of these white hairs with each shed and by 8 years old might be mostly white.

The term "Silver tipped steel" is just a fancy way of saying chinchilla or sable steel rabbits and is controlled by the E-locus (to get the steel gene) and C-locus (to get chin or shaded) rabbits

Agouti/self on the A-locus is not a colour but a pattern - specifically a "ring pattern", or lack of one, that creates different concentrations of colour along the fur shaft. All 4 genes on the E-locus control the colour in the ring pattern bands, or lack of in the case of self based rabbits (ie torts, sable points) as well as the wideband gene (W-locus)

 

[Susie570]

As you all know, this is a LOT of information to sift through and organize. It's going to take me a while to update everything AND get it as correct as possible I'm working on it in between my 'for pay' projects, which have to take priority of course!! Thanks for everyone's participation, cooperation and patience!

 

[akane]

You can tell silver from steel without knowing the parents. Steel changes color on the bands of the hair. Silver causes full white hairs in between normal colored hairs. You just have to look at individual hairs.

 

[Susie570]

You can tell silver from steel without knowing the parents. Steel changes color on the bands of the hair. Silver causes full white hairs in between normal colored hairs. You just have to look at individual hairs.

Nice Tip!!!

 

[Zass]

The one that was posted didn't look anything like a silvered rabbit. None of you guys would have questioned it for a second. STS have a silver color where silvered rabbits just have white hairs.
Camera flash sometimes makes the silver hairs look white, but a well marked STS has visible agouti marks. This one had them. It was plain as day.