Ultimate Rabbit Colors for Dummies Thread

[Zinnia]

You can tell silver from steel without knowing the parents. Steel changes color on the bands of the hair. Silver causes full white hairs in between normal colored hairs. You just have to look at individual hairs.

Can you elaborate on this? Should Steels have muted bands? How does the color change on the hair shaft? I'm asking because my high rufus Chocolate based Agouti Steel kits have the nicest color definition in their bands. I wasn't expecting that.

 

[Dood]

Steels are only visual in agouti based rabbits (self hides steel) so they have ring pattern/ bands but have a wider black band (or chocolate in your case) that crowds out the yellow band.

Sometimes the black band is so wide it removes all other colours on the fur shaft and mimics a self rabbit

 

[twr]

Thanks for the various responses. I certainly don't mind being challenged. If I'm wrong on something I expect to be called on it.

As far as the black vs brown eumelanins. The part of your statement I had problems with was "three coloured pigments". I feel that this is technically incorrect. I do not have a problem with explaining it as brown and black eumelanin.

I think I have to back down on this. I've not been able to find papers that use the term pigment in the way I tried to. In any case, the main idea I was trying to get across was that although there are only two types of pigment in rabbits, one of them comes in two different colours.

I'm not exactly sure that even saying brown or black eumelanins is completely correct as there are mutations in TYRP1 in humans that result in very "blond" hair in otherwise dark populations (OCA3).

In my first post I was careful to say "in rabbits".

You guys have gone WAY beyond color genetics simplified.

My first post (trying to address some specific points on the thread topic) was an attempt to be simple (give-or-take the long names for melanin types). My second post (as a response to alforddm and dood) wasn't.

 

[cmfarm]

What is the difference between Steele and Agouti?

 

[alforddm]

Steel (ES) is an allele at Extension (the E locus). Agouti banding (A) is an allele at the Agouti locus (A Locus). To express visually Steel (ES) must be present with A (agouti banding).

The A allele causes the "bands" in rabbit fur. The Steel allele (ES) moves the bands from the middle of the hair shaft to the tip of the hair shaft making the hairs "tipped" instead of "banded". Because steel moves the agouti banding, if the rabbit is self (aa), it has no agouti band for steel to affect thus resulting in a solid black rabbit. It is also possible for the Steel allele to move the agouti bands completely off the hair shaft making a Steel rabbit (A- ES-) mimic a self rabbit (aa E-). This is why steel is so hard to work with in a breeding program.

 

[Zinnia]

Steel (ES) is an allele at Extension (the E locus). Agouti banding (A) is an allele at the Agouti locus (A Locus). To express visually Steel (ES) must be present with A (agouti banding).

The A allele causes the "bands" in rabbit fur. The Steel allele (ES) moves the bands from the middle of the hair shaft to the tip of the hair shaft making the hairs "tipped" instead of "banded". Because steel moves the agouti banding, if the rabbit is self (aa), it has no agouti band for steel to affect thus resulting in a solid black rabbit. It is also possible for the Steel allele to move the agouti bands completely off the hair shaft making a Steel rabbit (A- ES-) mimic a self rabbit (aa E-). This is why steel is so hard to work with in a breeding program.

I have two such rabbits I'm working with right now... Self appearance proven to be Agouti Steel. :x

With at least a dozen kits with the Steel gene in my herd right now, I'm seeing a vast difference in the way Steel presents itself. Rufus, wide band, chinchilla... all these factors make the Steel gene display itself differently in Agouti rabbits. I'll be taking more photos soon and adding them to my Steel thread... just waiting on two more litters with the Steel parents...

 

[Susie570]

Here's another request for clarification.

I know that a rabbit can be EITHER Self or Agouti.
Once you've established that aspect, the rabbit's coat can be either Solid or Broken, right?
So, you can have a Solid Self or a Solid Agouti. You can have a Broken Self or Broken Agouti?
Is there another coat pattern that does not fall under Solid or Broken? I understand that Charlie/False Charlie and Booted are both types of Broken. Are there other types of Broken?

Are there certain coat patterns that ONLY fall under either Self or Agouti, Solid or Broken? I think I know a few, but I'm unsure.

 

[alforddm]

I'm not sure I'm understanding exactly what your asking.

Any base color can be either broken or solid. There are also the Dutch and Vienna white patterns.

There is also the otter (at) at agouti. So, it would be more correct to say that a rabbit can be agouti, tan, or self.

 

[Zass]

There is also the otter (at) at agouti. So, it would be more correct to say that a rabbit can be agouti, tan, or self.

That is correct alforddm. I think breeders often lump tan (also called otter and martin) in with agouti, because it tends to behave similarly when paired with other genes. (black, blue, chocolate or lilac, and chinchilla variants of those colors (often called silvered, but it's not genetically si silvering or silver tip steel), and the more obscure pairing like harli tan, steeled otter, etc)

 

[Susie570]

I'm not sure I'm understanding exactly what your asking.

Any base color can be either broken or solid.

That's part of what I was confirming.

There are also the Dutch and Vienna white patterns.

I know what a Dutch pattern looks like, what is the description of a Vienna pattern?
Are these considered 'white' patterns because it's the shape of the white on the rabbit?

There is also the otter (at) at agouti. So, it would be more correct to say that a rabbit can be agouti, tan, or self.

So 'Tan' is not just a color? When I hear Tan, I think of.... light brown, kind of a cream color. Are you saying that you cannot have a cream colored agouti rabbit, or a Self cream colored rabbit?

I appreciate everyone's patience with me

 

[Zass]

So 'Tan' is not just a color? When I hear Tan, I think of.... light brown, kind of a cream color. Are you saying that you cannot have a cream colored agouti rabbit, or a Self cream colored rabbit?

I appreciate everyone's patience with me

"Cream" is a dilute non-extension agouti. A_ B_ C_ dd ee
So, no, you can't have a self cream. The same rabbit made self instead of agouti would be a blue tort. aa B_ C_ dd ee (AKA, dilute non-extension self)

Any color can be overlaid by the various white patterns. Even si silvering shows up over anything.
I'm not sure I fully understand dutch, and vienna is highly variable. It puts almost random white marks on a rabbit, or sometimes none, and two copies produced blue eyed white rabbits.

Blue eyes white and red eyed white rabbits are still genetically colored animals, but the color is hidden by two copies of a recessive gene. .

 

[alforddm]

I know what a Dutch pattern looks like, what is the description of a Vienna pattern?
Are these considered 'white' patterns because it's the shape of the white on the rabbit?

They are called white patterns because they add white. Maybe White Spotting Pattern is better? They are simply mutations that disrupt the development of pigment in certain areas. They tend to follow certain "pattern" so that a trained eye can tell them apart. For example telling a Dutch from a Broken by just looking. There is some over lap to all patterns and it is possible for a rabbit to have more than one. For example a rabbit can be both Broken and Dutch.

I'm not going to pretend I can give a good description of Vienna...Maybe Dood? It is the cause of the "blue eyed white" phenotype when a rabbit has two copies of the mutation.

So 'Tan' is not just a color? When I hear Tan, I think of.... light brown, kind of a cream color. Are you saying that you cannot have a cream colored agouti rabbit, or a Self cream colored rabbit?

I probably should have said "otter" rather than tan.
This is an image of a otter or Tan patterned rabbit. It is caused by the "at" allele at the Agouti Locus.

 

[Zass]

The red belly on that Tan is also caused by wideband and rufus. (the same genes that turn orange into red)

The otter pattern without those genes would have tan lined white markings
As seen in these mini rex: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/299911656410234512/
and the at(otter) pattern on a chinchilla rabbit has pure white markings.
http://www.thenaturetrail.com/grand-cha ... ten-arson/

 

[Susie570]

So 'Tan' is not just a color? When I hear Tan, I think of.... light brown, kind of a cream color. Are you saying that you cannot have a cream colored agouti rabbit, or a Self cream colored rabbit?

I appreciate everyone's patience with me

"Cream" is a dilute non-extension agouti. A_ B_ C_ dd ee

Ok. I keep seeing 'non-extension' and I don't understand what that means. Is it something you can see, visually? :shock:

What is the non-dilute color of Cream? Can the non-dilute color be either Self or Agouti?
Can the dilute version of that color be Self? <br /><br /> __________ Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:57 pm __________ <br /><br /> Erk!! Just ignore me asking questions that have already been answered!!!
Thanks!!

 

[Zass]

So 'Tan' is not just a color? When I hear Tan, I think of.... light brown, kind of a cream color. Are you saying that you cannot have a cream colored agouti rabbit, or a Self cream colored rabbit?

I appreciate everyone's patience with me

"Cream" is a dilute non-extension agouti. A_ B_ C_ dd ee

Ok. I keep seeing 'non-extension' and I don't understand what that means. Is it something you can see, visually? :shock:

What is the non-dilute color of Cream? Can the non-dilute color be either Self or Agouti?
Can the dilute version of that color be Self?

__________ Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:57 pm __________

Erk!! Just ignore me asking questions that have already been answered!!!
Thanks!!

I believe the non-extension questions were answered by alforddm at the start.

I'll try again though

Agouti + non-extension creates cream, orange, red, fawn depending on breed.

Self + non-extension creates torts....mostly.

 

[Susie570]

So, no, you can't have a self cream. The same rabbit made self instead of agouti would be a blue tort.

Ok, I know what Blue is. What does Tort mean? I've always thought it mean 'tortoiseshell', like in cats... but that seems to be called 'Harlequin' in rabbits (I've seen it called Harlequin in cats too).

Any color can be overlaid by the various white patterns. Even si silvering shows up over anything.
I'm not sure I fully understand dutch, and vienna is highly variable. It puts almost random white marks on a rabbit, or sometimes none, and two copies produced blue eyed white rabbits.

Blue eyes white and red eyed white rabbits are still genetically colored animals, but the color is hidden by two copies of a recessive gene. .

Ok, got that... it makes sense. When I see people talk about REW and BEW, that means Red Eyed White and Blue Eyed White, correct? And to qualify as either of those, the rabbit must not have any color on it's body? Am I wrong to think that REW and BEW rabbits tend to have genetic defects, such as being deaf? That doesn't seem to make sense to me though, since there are entire herds of these critters being bred. Or am I thinking of something else? <br /><br /> __________ Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:04 pm __________ <br /><br />

I believe the non-extension questions were answered by alforddm at the start.

I'll try again though

Agouti + non-extension creates cream, orange, red, fawn depending on breed.

Self + non-extension creates torts....mostly.

Sorry!! I do go back and look, but I forget. This thread is long and complicated, but I'm getting it figured out.

 

[Zass]

Fawn and cream are the same color in some breeds, and different in others. In some they are both dilute(blue) non-extension colors, but in flemish fawn is not dilute, and instead it's the same genotype as orange is in other breeds.

 

[Susie570]

I probably should have said "otter" rather than tan.
This is an image of a otter or Tan patterned rabbit. It is caused by the "at" allele at the Agouti Locus.

Ok. Tan and Otter are interchangeable?

It basically looks like that's a black rabbit with (brownish) coloring where white would normally be, in almost a Dutch pattern.

If a rabbit is Tan/Otter, can it be in combination with ANY other color, or only specific ones?

It looks like the (brownish) areas fade from a reddish brown to a light brown. Is that typical of a Tan/Otter rabbit? Or can it be just a consistent color of (tan) where the tan is present?

"Wideband" - does that mean the agouti pattern is, basically stretched out across the coat instead of just showing up in the individual hairs?

__________ Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:15 pm __________

The red belly on that Tan is also caused by wideband and rufus. (the same genes that turn orange into red)

The otter pattern without those genes would have tan lined white markings
As seen in these mini rex: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/299911656410234512/
and the at(otter) pattern on a chinchilla rabbit has pure white markings.
http://www.thenaturetrail.com/grand-cha ... ten-arson/

Ooo! I missed that - going to look!

__________ Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:29 pm __________

So, no, you can't have a self cream. The same rabbit made self instead of agouti would be a blue tort. aa B_ C_ dd ee (AKA, dilute non-extension self)

I promise I'm not trying to be contentious, just trying to understand!! What colors are these bunnies?

Now, I understand that different breeds have different names for different colors, but these rabbits all look like 'self cream' to me Even the little bunny that looks mostly white, has faint cream shading around its mouth, nose and ears (Otter?)

Edit: Actually, that bottom picture I can see dark shading in the coat (agouti?) I would guess the roots of the hairs are dark and they grow lighter toward the tips? (still not sure what color that would be though)

 

[Zass]

Now your asking us to ID a rabbit' s color based on one pic. You know we can't do that with all colors
:razz:

I can't ID that white one because I can not see the eye well. If it's dark it's probably a really lightly marked frosty or ermine. (non-extension chinchilla)

The one labeled cream is definitely a cream.

With non-extension in the mix it can be harder to ID self or agouti based (cream or tort) visually.
If I could see the belly and undersides of the ears I would have a better idea...

 

[Dood]

The bottom two are agouti and non-extension which mimics self fawn/orange/red if they also have a white cream belly and no white eye rings then they are also wideband and look even more like a self orange.

The non extension gene increases the yellow pigment in the fur shaft and crowds out the black pigment band so much so they no longer have noticeable black in the fur (basically the opposite effect of steel (also on the E-locus) which crowds out the yellow pigment)

The tan gene "at" on the A-locus creates tans, otters, marten and fox colours

Tan the colour is always wideband

Otter the colour is always not wideband