Ultimate Rabbit Colors for Dummies Thread

[Susie570]

Now your asking us to ID a rabbit' s color based on one pic. You know we can't do that with all colors
:razz:

I can't ID that white one because I can not see the eye well. If it's dark it's probably a really lightly marked frosty or ermine. (non-extension chinchilla)

The one labeled cream is definitely a cream.

With non-extension in the mix it can be harder to ID self or agouti based (cream or tort) visually.
If I could see the belly and undersides of the ears I would have a better idea...

LOL I know, I know... I'm asking a lot!!
This is the only way I can really learn about this stuff though, so I'm glad you folks are such good sports about it. If you get annoyed, just ignore me (well, maybe just in this thread!! lol)

Thank you

__________ Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:13 pm __________

The bottom two are agouti and non-extension which mimics self fawn/orange/red if they also have a white cream belly and no white eye rings then they are also wideband and look even more like a self orange.

OK, so... although there is no such thing as a Self Orange/Fawn/Red, they can LOOK like it due to the agouti pattern with non-extension. Did I get that right??

The non extension gene increases the yellow pigment in the fur shaft and crowds out the black pigment band so much so they no longer have noticeable black in the fur (basically the opposite effect of steel (also on the E-locus) which crowds out the yellow pigment)

Then Non-Extension is the opposite of Chinchilla? Chinchilla REMOVES the yellow pigment, Non-Extension INCREASES the yellow pigment (weird, one would think that 'non-extension' would have a cute name, like Chinchilla does!) lol

The tan gene "at" on the A-locus creates tans, otters, marten and fox colours

Tan the colour is always wideband

Otter the colour is always not wideband

When you say 'wideband', do you mean that the agouti pattern is spread out over the entire surface of the rabbit?
So that picture posted of the brown & black rabbit, is 'Tan Wideband'?
And 'Otter' would be more... 'contained' sections of the brownish color?

What constitutes a Marten or Fox?

I've seen Silver Martens, and that seems to be both a breed and a color. <br /><br /> __________ Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:54 pm __________ <br /><br /> I guess I got annoying!!! :lol: :lol:

 

[Zass]

fox is tort-otter A non-extension tan (or otter if you prefer) patterned rabbit.

 

[Dood]

Then Non-Extension is the opposite of Chinchilla? Chinchilla REMOVES the yellow pigment, Non-Extension INCREASES the yellow pigment (weird, one would think that 'non-extension' would have a cute name, like Chinchilla does!) lol

I never mentioned chinchilla :shrug:

Non extension is on the E-locus and EXTENDS the yellow pigment BAND in the fur shaft.

Chinchilla is on the C-locus and genetically removes 3 of the 4 yellow pigments and basically makes a brown and black rabbit become a white and black rabbit

The wideband gene on the Wi-locus increases the yellow pigment BAND in agouti based rabbits and crowds out the white/cream bands seen on the belly of agouti based rabbits.

 

[alforddm]

OK, so... although there is no such thing as a Self Orange/Fawn/Red, they can LOOK like it due to the agouti pattern with non-extension. Did I get that right??

Well, they can "look" red but they aren't self. A true self (aa) with the recessive allele at extension (I really don't like the term non-extension) will be a tort.

Then Non-Extension is the opposite of Chinchilla? Chinchilla REMOVES the yellow pigment, Non-Extension INCREASES the yellow pigment (weird, one would think that 'non-extension' would have a cute name, like Chinchilla does!) lol

The recessive allele at extension ("e" aka non-extension bleh :lol: ) has nothing to do with chinchilla and does not totally remove black pigment (look at a tort rabbit). Just think of it as a different expression. You need to go back and study that table and post that I wrote with the Agouti and Extension genes. You're never really going to understand what is happening until you understand those two genes. After you understand those two genes, Everything else comes together fairly easy.

 

[Zass]

agouti + chinchilla + non-extension creates a frosty, also called ermine in the US.
A_ B_ Cchd_ D_ ee

self + chinchilla + non-extension creates a sallander.

aa B_ Cchd_ D_ ee


You can google those for pics.

 

[Susie570]

fox is tort-otter A non-extension tan (or otter if you prefer) patterned rabbit.

Ok, thanks - I don't think anyone ever told me what 'Tort' means?

__________ Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:29 pm __________

Then Non-Extension is the opposite of Chinchilla? Chinchilla REMOVES the yellow pigment, Non-Extension INCREASES the yellow pigment (weird, one would think that 'non-extension' would have a cute name, like Chinchilla does!) lol

I never mentioned chinchilla :shrug:

Non extension is on the E-locus and EXTENDS the yellow pigment BAND in the fur shaft.

Chinchilla is on the C-locus and genetically removes 3 of the 4 yellow pigments and basically makes a brown and black rabbit become a white and black rabbit

The wideband gene on the Wi-locus increases the yellow pigment BAND in agouti based rabbits and crowds out the white/cream bands seen on the belly of agouti based rabbits.

Oh... derrrr... lol sorry for my confusion. So, genetically it's different, but visually it basically does the opposite thing?
It sounds like it at least

__________ Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:31 pm __________

The recessive allele at extension ("e" aka non-extension bleh :lol: ) has nothing to do with chinchilla and does not totally remove black pigment (look at a tort rabbit). Just think of it as a different expression. You need to go back and study that table and post that I wrote with the Agouti and Extension genes. You're never really going to understand what is happening until you understand those two genes. After you understand those two genes, Everything else comes together fairly easy.

Thank you, I'm trying!!! <br /><br /> __________ Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:31 pm __________ <br /><br />

agouti + chinchilla + non-extension creates a frosty, also called ermine in the US.
A_ B_ Cchd_ D_ ee

self + chinchilla + non-extension creates a sallander.

aa B_ Cchd_ D_ ee


You can google those for pics.

Excellent! Thank you

 

[alforddm]

I just wanted to add that I really do understand that it's a difficult subject. Sometimes it just takes rereading and rereading and rereading until something finally clicks.

 

[Susie570]

I just wanted to add that I really do understand that it's a difficult subject. Sometimes it just takes rereading and rereading and rereading until something finally clicks.

That is certainly true... makes me feel dumb.

But, sometimes you just read something said a certain way and it makes sense, as you said. I'm actually starting to 'get' some of it... I think!

 

[Zass]

I think, trying to learn all the colors separately is like trying to memorize the answer to every possible multiplication problem that can be created between 5 different numbers, instead of learning how to multiply.

Once you learn the basic genes, you would get a good idea of how they interact.

For starters lets get a chestnut agouti:

A_B_C_D_E_ he's in the bathroom due to a nail injury.


Now, lets change it into an opal that is, a blue agouti:

A_ B_ C_ dd E_


See, all we did was double up the recessive d instead of the dominant D_ which pretty much just means Not Blue or Not Dilute. Those two little recessive ds together create the blue variant of any color.

Remember the sallander and frostys I mentioned earlier? They both come in black, blue, chocolate, and lilac variants as well. In order to get the blue(dilute) variants, all you have to do is swap the D_ the in genotype I listed with dd


Lilac is also a dilute shade BTW. It's any color that also has both recessive shades
chocolate and dilute
_ _ bb _ _ dd _ _

So a lilac agouti (lynx) would be

A_ bb C_ dd E_



Unfortunately, I've yet to produce a chocolate agouti that isn't steeled. So I don't have an image,

 

[Susie570]

Once you learn the basic genes, you would get a good idea of how they interact.

For starters lets get a chestnut

Now, lets change it into an opal that is, a blue agouti:

See, all we did was double up the recessive d instead of the dominant D_ which pretty much just means Not Blue or Not Dilute. Those two little recessive ds together create the blue variant of any color.

Remember the sallander and frostys I mentioned earlier? They both come in black, blue, chocolate, and lilac variants as well. In order to get the blue(dilute) variants, all you have to do is swap the D_ the in genotype I listed with dd


Lilac is also a dilute shade BTW. It's any color that also has both recessive shades
chocolate and dilute
_ _ bb _ _ dd _ _

So a lilac agouti (lynx) would be

A_ bb C_ dd E_



Unfortunately, I've yet to produce a chocolate agouti that isn't steeled. So I don't have an image,

That's very helpful! Thank you! And Zomg... those two fat little kits are to die for... soooo cute!

 

[EnglishSpot]

I've been following this thread quietly since my ignorance is huge, but I would like to thank Zass for the above picture comment & explanation of what changing a dominate D to a recessive dd will do to a rabbit. I understand there are many more variations of the color scheme if you used a self instead of an agouti (it's like mathematical squaring or rabbit math) but that particular post was ground breaking for me, particularly since she color coded the gene sequence to the color expression!!

Honestly more picture tutorials like that and my ignorance will be severely lessoned (pun intended).

 

[Dood]

I started out with this website - http://www.nockrabbits.com/shaded.html

It also has real rabbit pictures if you click the genotype

 

[Susie570]

I've been following this thread quietly since my ignorance is huge, but I would like to thank Zass for the above picture comment & explanation of what changing a dominate D to a recessive dd will do to a rabbit. I understand there are many more variations of the color scheme if you used a self instead of an agouti (it's like mathematical squaring or rabbit math) but that particular post was ground breaking for me, particularly since she color coded the gene sequence to the color expression!!

Honestly more picture tutorials like that and my ignorance will be severely lessoned (pun intended).

I agree, EnglishSpot!! It was a great post!

__________ Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:53 pm __________

I started out with this website - http://www.nockrabbits.com/shaded.html

It also has real rabbit pictures if you click the genotype

That is a GREAT link!!! Thank you, Dood!! <br /><br /> __________ Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:46 am __________ <br /><br /> Ok, I keep asking people what 'tort' means and although I saw it in a genetic chart, I still couldn't figure out what a tort looks like.

I think I may have finally found the answer. This page has some (hopefully) good basic descriptions of colors.
http://exoticpets.about.com/cs/rabbits/ ... colors.htm

So, is this what is meant by 'tort':Tortoise: orange with black, blue, chocolate or lilac ?

 

[Dood]

Sorta

Black torts should have nice dark points with an orange saddle but modifiers can reduce the black a lot (see picture)

A blue tort will be a bluish orangish points with a lighter orange cream body

Chocolate tort often look like a wideband fawns

Lilac torts often look like wideband creams

This website has some pictures of torts for comparison - http://www.sleepyhollowrabbitry.com/genetics.html

The word "tort" is used to describe self and non extension in other colours ie "torted harlequin" is a self harlequin instead of an agouti harlequin which is the showable colour

Or "torted otter" is a otter that is non extension instead of full extension

 

[alforddm]

Or "torted otter" is a otter that is non extension instead of full extension

Wouldn't a "torted otter" be the tan/otter/martin allele at Agouti with "non extension" (the recessive allele at Extension)?

 

[Dood]

Or "torted otter" is a otter that is non extension instead of full extension

Wouldn't a "torted otter" be the tan/otter/martin allele at Agouti with "non extension" (the recessive allele at Extension)?

Yes - genetically = at_ __ __ __ ee

 

[Susie570]

This website has some pictures of torts for comparison - http://www.sleepyhollowrabbitry.com/genetics.html

The word "tort" is used to describe self and non extension in other colours ie "torted harlequin" is a self harlequin instead of an agouti harlequin which is the showable colour

Or "torted otter" is a otter that is non extension instead of full extension

That website has great pictures! I think I can recognize a tort now. Only thing is, don't they look similar to a sable?

 

[Dood]

The dark black torts can look somewhat like a sable but sables are a dark chocolate brown or coffee colour and never black and orange

 

[Susie570]

I was just reading up on E and ee and I think I get it... but does that mean all agouti rabbits are ee? Does that also mean that all ee rabbits are agouti?

(EDIT: I meant E to be Extention and ee to be non-extension... sorry... *facepalm*)

 

[alforddm]

I was just reading up on E and ee and I think I get it... but does that mean all agouti rabbits are ee? Does that also mean that all ee rabbits are agouti?

Neither, Rabbits can be E or ee with or without agouti. E A is chesnut. E aa is self. ee A is red or orange. ee aa is tort.