Silver fox advice...more..haha (pics buried)

[AnnClaire]

Senior weight at 5 months? Yeah, breed that back into your lines!

As for posing, you did a good job ... when photographing for sale rabbits, a neutral background works best, then I like to get a posed shot facing left, one from the top down, and one from the rear ...

Your side pose is good, keep the ears tipped up and out of the way to show the shoulders (rise) and when you set the back feet, be sure they are parallel ... yeah right, there are FOUR feet to try to get in the right position, so sometimes it is like a rabbit rodeo Your front feet look pretty close, so you are on the money there

His face could use a bit more silvering, but that and shoulders and fur are what we are all working on constantly LOL

When I post for sale, here is the sequence of poses/photos I show: http://s647.photobucket.com/user/calvar ... For%20Sale

 

[Zass]

So...what am I looking at from the back? I mean...I took about a 100 pics of my jr rabbit's behind, and they all look rather different...if that's even possible to imagine.

I restrained myself from just posting his "best butt shot" to ask about what I was really trying to capture on camera

OK, I restrained for a few seconds....here's the best butt shot(in my opinion) I was able to get.

I'm worried abut his fur quality, and hindquarter more than anything.

 

[skysthelimit]

What about the fur quality worries you? He's still young and not at senior prime yet.

He looks like he has a nice wide rear, no pinched hips or anything. He does not look hollow, but with the longer haired breeds, that's another thing I would have to run my hands over his rear to tell. Even at five mos and 9lbs, he could use some finish, so if he was a little hollow, time would fill that in.

I would keep a close eye, thought. With that weight at such a young age, he could go overweight. If you are showing this guy, or thinking of registering him, do it as soon as possible. My friend has a Rex buck, GC eligible, and went over before she had the op to register him.

 

[Zass]

I have had to put him on a diet

I am pleased about it though, because it means less feed from now on.
He free fed between 1 and 1.5 cups of 16% protein feed daily for his rapid growth age. (between 12 and 22 weeks)
I should have reduced his feed at 20 weeks. He has gotten a bit chubby. I was letting him overeat out of curiosity, wondering exactly how BIG he planned on getting.

The fur doesn't standup quite as much as I would like. Perhaps lacking density? It might fill out more as he ages.
I won't mind if he stays lightly silvered, so long as it's even with no white spots. If I wanted tons of silver I would have just gone with Argent rabbits instead of silverfox. lol actually it's not the SILVER that I wanted out of these guys, it's the FOX. Haha, the length, density, and standup fur, and good growth was the selling point for me.

I'm curious as to who everyone expects spectacular dressouts from these guys though. Fur is heavy, longer denser fur is heavier, they are going to lose out a bit compared to lighter furred breeds on that account alone.


I really could care less about heritage or bloodlines or type so long as I produced rabbits who make great pelts. BUT I don't want to breed what everyone else considers to be junk either(since heavy culling is a natural part of raising meat rabbits, I might as well work towards SOP), so I wanted to learn more about how to judge my own stock. It looks like I really did get lucky with what I have, now that I have a basis of comparison to what others are selling.
I could sell one of my nicer buns with confidence now, with a disclosure about the mixed color lines and hidden genes. I might not have GC bloodlines, but I'm not producing total junk either.

So far I've just attended open or 4-h shows. State Collage PA has a few every year, and isn't too far to drive. Next time I'm there I'll have to get more involved with the other silver fox people. They come from all over the state.
You should see my 5 year old carrying one of these big bunnehs to the judging table

 

[skysthelimit]

I free feed till 4-6 mos. or when they get close to senior weight. I don't think he needs a diet. It only matters if you show him or want to register him.

As AnneC said, fur is something everyone is always working on. Too short, it doesn't stand up well, or lacks density; perhaps, but he's only 5 mos, hardly sr prime in coat, not considered a finished rabbit (finish as in mature and in prime condition). The breed varies in silvering even across litters, it's just one of those things. A preference, and at the judges discretion.

Silver Fox were bred to dress out at 60% of live weight, fur not even a consideration. Ideally, they should hold their own with growth rate, litter size, dress out with any NZ or Cal, the only draw back is the non white fur. If the dress out is not good, cull for it. Remember bone has more to do with weight. Big bones, more weight, less meat.

 

[Zass]

I free feed till 4-6 mos. or when they get close to senior weight. I don't think he needs a diet. It only matters if you show him or want to register him.

As AnneC said, fur is something everyone is always working on. Too short, it doesn't stand up well, or lacks density; perhaps, but he's only 5 mos, hardly sr prime in coat, not considered a finished rabbit (finish as in mature and in prime condition). The breed varies in silvering even across litters, it's just one of those things. A preference, and at the judges discretion.

Silver Fox were bred to dress out at 60% of live weight, fur not even a consideration. Ideally, they should hold their own with growth rate, litter size, dress out with any NZ or Cal, the only draw back is the non white fur. If the dress out is not good, cull for it. Remember bone has more to do with weight. Big bones, more weight, less meat.

Normally, I free feed at those ages too, but bucks aren't supposed to have dewlaps.
He's starting to get one...kind of a red flag to me.

Now if dress-out measures bone and not pelt weight, how exactly do I prepare and weigh a carcass to measure that?
Skin it, gut it, remove head, weigh it, and then debone the entire thing and weigh it again?

 

[3mina]

Dress out ratio is live weight versus carcass weight, it not the same as meat to bone ratio which is the amount of meat on a carcass versus the amount of bone under it. To get meat to bone ratio you debone the carcass and weigh both.

 

[skysthelimit]

Dewlaps are not necessarily a sign of over weight. My normal weight Rex does (never bred) and some of the Rex bucks have them. But they are hereditary, and a fault.

 

[Zass]

Dewlaps are not necessarily a sign of over weight. My normal weight Rex does (never bred) and some of the Rex bucks have them. But they are hereditary, and a fault.

I won't discount the possibility, but he really just looks chubby to me

Too much oats and Boss would be my guess. He's such a nice kid, and just loves to nibble treats from my hand. If he has fat on him I'm confident he can finish out his growth even on reduced feed. I don't mind if he goes oversize, so long as he isn't fat.
If I can't show him, no problem, we will just take his kids, or sisters.
I don't see a whole lot of SF breeders that are struggling with TOO large of rabbits. Keeping up the size seems to be a bigger issue.

 

[skysthelimit]

They do. It's just not as common. It's one of those things, it's easier to breed down than to breed up. I can't figure out why I would ever keep a small but typey buck, though I have benn told to do so on more than one occasion. Doesn't seem wise.

 

[3mina]

Sass, what does his spine feel like? That's the easiest way to tell whether he's fat or not

 

[phillinley]

They do. It's just not as common. It's one of those things, it's easier to breed down than to breed up. I can't figure out why I would ever keep a small but typey buck, though I have benn told to do so on more than one occasion. Doesn't seem wise.

Small or lean? Our main breeding bucks for chocolate and black were both at senior weight when they were being shown, but now that they're retired they are slightly below SOP minimums but they are in great health and have no issues when breeding. We keep them leaner so they don't build up the fat and can still produce as breeders.

 

[skysthelimit]

They do. It's just not as common. It's one of those things, it's easier to breed down than to breed up. I can't figure out why I would ever keep a small but typey buck, though I have benn told to do so on more than one occasion. Doesn't seem wise.

Small or lean? Our main breeding bucks for chocolate and black were both at senior weight when they were being shown, but now that they're retired they are slightly below SOP minimums but they are in great health and have no issues when breeding. We keep them leaner so they don't build up the fat and can still produce as breeders.

Small, as in doesn't make senior weight. I had a doe that never got more than 7lbs at a year old. I culled her, and was asked why did I do that. I could not understand why anyone would ask me why. I just spend three years culling my entire Rex herd twice because I had nothing to show, nothing made senior weight. I don't even deal with it now, if they are not senior weight in time for senior prime, I cull. They are suppose to be meat rabbits after all.

Bucks I don't really monitor after they reach senior weight. I really haven't weighed anyone that is over a year old. But then that's how my Rex breeder got in trouble with an overweight buck They are on a pretty strict eating schedule and not treats. Does, are free fed when the kits are free fed, and I really have to watch them.

Now I do have one JW and one Rex that have legs and need to be registered, so I have to watch their weight, but neither one are near the end limit of the standard.<br /><br />__________ Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:15 pm __________<br /><br />The SF doe had 8 live kits today. They look lilac. I'll confirm in a few days, but it looks like I've got some chocolate in the line. Not sure how I feel about that, I don't know if I like chocolates or not. I am completely in love with the blues though.

 

[Zass]

They do. It's just not as common. It's one of those things, it's easier to breed down than to breed up. I can't figure out why I would ever keep a small but typey buck, though I have benn told to do so on more than one occasion. Doesn't seem wise.

Small or lean? Our main breeding bucks for chocolate and black were both at senior weight when they were being shown, but now that they're retired they are slightly below SOP minimums but they are in great health and have no issues when breeding. We keep them leaner so they don't build up the fat and can still produce as breeders.

Small, as in doesn't make senior weight. I had a doe that never got more than 7lbs at a year old. I culled her, and was asked why did I do that. I could not understand why anyone would ask me why. I just spend three years culling my entire Rex herd twice because I had nothing to show, nothing made senior weight. I don't even deal with it now, if they are not senior weight in time for senior prime, I cull. They are suppose to be meat rabbits after all.

Bucks I don't really monitor after they reach senior weight. I really haven't weighed anyone that is over a year old. But then that's how my Rex breeder got in trouble with an overweight buck They are on a pretty strict eating schedule and not treats. Does, are free fed when the kits are free fed, and I really have to watch them.

Now I do have one JW and one Rex that have legs and need to be registered, so I have to watch their weight, but neither one are near the end limit of the standard.

__________ Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:15 pm __________

The SF doe had 8 live kits today. They look lilac. I'll confirm in a few days, but it looks like I've got some chocolate in the line. Not sure how I feel about that, I don't know if I like chocolates or not. I am completely in love with the blues though.

I love both chocolate, blue, and lilac (this is where you can tell I'm not a show breeder), but it seems chocolate SF aren't anywhere near DARK BROWN enough for my taste. Too light of a shade. Most look like...stale chocolate, haha. I'll make sure to work towards nice dark chocolates when I finally get some.

I crossed that jr buck back with his mother to see if she had anything hidden I aught to know about. I know it's only 50% chance that the buck inherited recessives from her to begin with, but it's worth a shot.(especially when you raise for meat and have no problems eating the whole litter) She came from a chocolate doe too, so if he has it, it should turn up as well, that is, assuming he's going to produce me anything at this age. He's a very enthusiastic breeder, so I have hope.
As far as the spine goes, what am I feeling for? I can still feel the spine (it's not totally buried in fat), but it's not bumpy or prominent in any way.

 

[phillinley]

I love both chocolate, blue, and lilac (this is where you can tell I'm not a show breeder), but it seems chocolate SF aren't anywhere near DARK BROWN enough for my taste. Too light of a shade. Most look like...stale chocolate, haha. I'll make sure to work towards nice dark chocolates when I finally get some.

You have to breed the chocolates back to the blacks every couple of generations or you will lose that dark brown coat that it calls for. That's probably where you are seeing those light chocolates, or they are chocolates that are too heavily silvered and that's a whole different problem that can be solved by breeding them to a lighter silvered rabbit.

 

[3mina]

You want gentle bumps, spiky bumps mean underweight and not being able to feel anything means your rabbit is overweight.

 

[skysthelimit]

I love both chocolate, blue, and lilac (this is where you can tell I'm not a show breeder)

I think most people do. Show breeder seem very eager to get the two colors passed. I have color issues, across breeds and animals. I don't like solid black animals. Silver Fox (and the Angoras) do not look solid black. I don't like white. I like patterns.

 

[Zass]

I love both chocolate, blue, and lilac (this is where you can tell I'm not a show breeder)

I think most people do. Show breeder seem very eager to get the two colors passed. I have color issues, across breeds and animals. I don't like solid black animals. Silver Fox (and the Angoras) do not look solid black. I don't like white. I like patterns.

lol, my math is wrong...haha both chocolate blue...and lilac? Sounds like bunny math, 1+1=14
and "trios" of 4 are common for people suffering from rabbitosos, right :razz:

 

[Frecs]

I love both chocolate, blue, and lilac (this is where you can tell I'm not a show breeder)

I think most people do. Show breeder seem very eager to get the two colors passed. I have color issues, across breeds and animals. I don't like solid black animals. Silver Fox (and the Angoras) do not look solid black. I don't like white. I like patterns.

I'm one of the weirdo minority...I like my Silver Foxes black...I did save one really nice blue doe...but the blacks are my fav. I do not like the chocolate or lilac.

Now, with my French Angora dreams...I would love a rainbow of colors with those!

 

[skysthelimit]

Definitely not a weirdo minority, judging from the SF FB page.

If seems lots of people want the three colors, even if they don't plan to raise them.

I like all things dilute. And as much as I want the Choc gene in the Rex herd, it's not to make chocos, but Amber and Lynx.