Silver fox advice...more..haha (pics buried)

[phillinley]

If you're in NE PA, Jo Mladjenovich is in Maryland. She's one of the directors of the Silver Fox club and she knows her stuff and is a very good mentor for Fox if you needed one.

As far as facebook goes, I use it only for the rabbit groups using our rabbitry name. My facebook account has no personal information nor location information, it is just for communication purposes with the breed groups. I hate the fact that they do most of their business on their instead of a public forum, but that's where pretty much all the breed clubs hangout so it's good to keep in contact.

As far as people testing for steel, heavy test breeders I know of who might do that would be Clyde and Sandi Green or Jeff Douglas (I'm not sure if that's their actual name for Douglas because it's a rabbit only facebook account.)

That is excellent advice.

I'm in north east PA. The closest breeders on that map are around Cleveland or Buffalo. 2.5 hours away. I have tried contacting breeders from their webpages in those areas, and had no luck so far getting anyone to reply. Might not have been persistent enough.

I'd have to make a facebook account just for this, if that's really the only way to get in touch.

I'll be honest though, I don't want my name or location on facebook. It's way too much of an invasion of privacy to me.

What are the chances that most breeders have ever tested their buns for steel? I'm willing to put money on it entering the lines along with the rew, so if I'm picky about that I'll have higher chances of finding what I'm looking for in a fox.

In the end, I'm a butcher and a tanner/furrier, I really do prefer rabbits with colors. I'm seeing a huge pickup in that market. Something like the keyword of this generation being "sustainable" and because rabbits are eaten and produce virtually no pollution, people tend no to be as shy of it as they are of most furbearing animals.

Showing to me is just a fun afternoon to spend with the kids, not a primary concern. I'm a little scared of people's show stock being neurotic, having slow growth or having poor litters/milk supply/mothering ability, you know, things judges can't see.

 

[skysthelimit]

I would not scrap the doe with the white spot, depending on where the white spot is.
If she had it when you got her, I would pluck it and put some Bag balm on it (or whatever is bunny safe) to see if it is a scar that will grow back black. Then I would breed her and she if she passes it on.

I just culled an entire line of Rex with white spots and toes, but ONLY because she had three litters like that, and I have so many, and I can afford to get rid of those that are unshowable. I needed the meat anyway, so they were the first to go. I did try to breed it out first.

With the Fox, I have V shaped white spots on the nose and white toes, that's a totally different thing. I culled the others because it's a drain on resources, I have a lot of rabbits. I kept a pair and I'm test breeding them. I generally keep most rabbits till 4-6 mos because I want the pelts. I've seen white spots on the body go away, but never the ones on the face and toes.

As far as temperament, I have taken kits/rabbits out of the cage, and they never returned. I cannot stand a poor tempered rabbit. Yes they are prey animals, but at some point, someone besides me has to handle them, so they have to be accepting of people. Especially kits I've handled since birth. I've taken rabbits to school, and lots of kids handle them, so if the bun loses it's mind when I take it out the cage it's history. I can't begin to understand why anyone one would put up with it, if you are putting rabbits on the table, they should not be skittish, they should be used to being handled.

 

[WildWolf]

... I've seen white spots on the body go away, but never the ones on the face and toes.

As far as temperament, I have taken kits/rabbits out of the cage, and they never returned. I cannot stand a poor tempered rabbit. Yes they are prey animals, but at some point, someone besides me has to handle them, so they have to be accepting of people. Especially kits I've handled since birth. I've taken rabbits to school, and lots of kids handle them, so if the bun loses it's mind when I take it out the cage it's history. I can't begin to understand why anyone one would put up with it, if you are putting rabbits on the table, they should not be skittish, they should be used to being handled.

I've had the opposite experience with my SF's. My doe had a white spot on her forehead when she was born. Within a year (I do not know the exact timing), it was gone completely. Also, all 3 of my SF are the sweetest and most docile rabbits I've met. My doe comes up to me every time I visit her, and insists on me petting her forehead. My 2 bucks are extremely curious and tolerant of me holding them. None of my 3 adult rabbits were handled a lot when young- they were handled, just not every day. They still turned out to be extremely friendly. I think that both issues- white spots and temperament- just depend on the lineage.

 

[skysthelimit]

A white spot on the nose? Usually doesn't go away. A white spot body, top of the head included in body, in the fur, is sometimes a good indication of heavy silvering. Sf should not be a hard to handle breed. Considering the mixed breeding that has introduced the color issues might be responsible for that.

 

[Southbound_SF]

I, too, have seen a small white spot on the forehead go away with time & molting, but since it's still genetically there it does show up in offspring. Sometimes these spots are bigger and don't go away with time. That's why I prefer not to breed or sell rabbits born with forehead spots - I know they'll turn up again. But it's true that a rabbit born with a small spot will not always remain unshowable.

SB

 

[Zass]

My "rabbit in question" has some white on her rear-end area and back legs, 3 small spots, each smaller than a ladybug. Toes or head spots would have been a sure a no-go for me. don't want that popping up later. She's lightly silvered, all but those spots. Ears seem a touch too long and a bit more pointed than my rabbits. I couldn't even say at this point if she has a junk body type or not, since she's so underweight and still growing. I'll get pics of her up later, when I've put some weight on her.
It is possible she was nipped a few times by the other buns. Dunno how long they were kept together. She's pretty young still though, I guess I'll grow her out and see what she turns into.
*places "rabbit in question" in the big outside pen, you know, the place where the occasional rabbit I'm unsure if I want to keep goes, sorta like rabbit limbo*

On another note...if satins were introduced for color at some point, does that mean satinized throwbacks are possible in those lines, or does anyone know what other genes got introduced with the chocolate that I'll need to look out for?

Thanks for all the good advice everyone, I've learned a lot! (feel free to add more)

 

[DogCatMom]

As far as facebook goes, I use it only for the rabbit groups using our rabbitry name. My facebook account has no personal information nor location information, it is just for communication purposes with the breed groups. I hate the fact that they do most of their business on their instead of a public forum, but that's where pretty much all the breed clubs hangout so it's good to keep in contact.

That explains why I couldn't find *any discussion forums* on Angoras or Flemish when I was looking for a rabbit in August and September. The one Angora "forum" I found was almost devoid of participants. It seemed very odd to me; there are forums for everything, so why not those kinds of rabbits? They had to be *somewhere*.... Finally, I contacted a couple of breeders through their public blogs.

I'm not on Facebook either, Zass. My personal life isn't available for someone else to make money from. :angry: It's just so...wrong.

If ARBA wants to encourage public participation and new membership (but with the recent kerfuffle, maybe they don't?), the breed forums need to be, well, public.

/threadjack/

 

[phillinley]

If ARBA wants to encourage public participation and new membership (but with the recent kerfuffle, maybe they don't?), the breed forums need to be, well, public.

/threadjack/

The ARBA has nothing to do with how the breed clubs conduct their business. It's not 'official' groups but it's where they do the most of their breed club talking.

 

[DogCatMom]

If ARBA wants to encourage public participation and new membership (but with the recent kerfuffle, maybe they don't?), the breed forums need to be, well, public.

/threadjack/

The ARBA has nothing to do with how the breed clubs conduct their business. It's not 'official' groups but it's where they do the most of their breed club talking.

Is there a public ARBA forum?

 

[phillinley]

Is there a public ARBA forum?

Nope, that would be nice. But if there was one, I'm sure it would get DOS'ed and that's probably one of the reasons there isn't one.

 

[skysthelimit]

On another note...if satins were introduced for color at some point, does that mean satinized throwbacks are possible in those lines, or does anyone know what other genes got introduced with the chocolate that I'll need to look out for?

Thanks for all the good advice everyone, I've learned a lot! (feel free to add more)

I can't say, but SF are pretty shiny themselves, so I don't think being satinized would make much of a difference in the appearance of the fur, unless the diameter of the guard hairs is changed somehow.
The problem is, who knows what other genes were introduced with the chocolates? Self chocolate can still hide quite a few things, and people have gotten torts and shades in their SF.

 

[WildWolf]

A white spot on the nose? Usually doesn't go away. A white spot body, top of the head included in body, in the fur, is sometimes a good indication of heavy silvering. Sf should not be a hard to handle breed. Considering the mixed breeding that has introduced the color issues might be responsible for that.

Sorry skysthelimit, I believe I misunderstood you. I did not realize that the bad tempered rabbits were mixed, and I didn't realize you included the forehead as in the body.

... That's why I prefer not to breed or sell rabbits born with forehead spots - I know they'll turn up again. But it's true that a rabbit born with a small spot will not always remain unshowable.

Yes, my doe had a white spot, and she outgrew it. However, one of her kits also has a white spot...

...I can't say, but SF are pretty shiny themselves, so I don't think being satinized would make much of a difference in the appearance of the fur, unless the diameter of the guard hairs is changed somehow.
The problem is, who knows what other genes were introduced with the chocolates? Self chocolate can still hide quite a few things, and people have gotten torts and shades in their SF.

That's a good point... One of my bucks has some Starck's rabbit lineage, and this year Starck's rabbits found out that they carry the harlequin and wool gene. My buck has very unusual fur- it's slightly longer, and a whole lot more soft and plush. It still stands up. However, I can't tell whether that is just good fur quality, or some weird gene showing itself. (And I'm not trying to pick on Starck's rabbitry or anything. I'm pretty sure that they were not the ones that introduced the weird genes).

I personally would love it if my buck had the wool gene- I would love breeding wooly SF for fiber and meat! Of course, I wouldn't try to pass it off as a rare breed or a purebred, and I would be honest about what's in them, and I would keep my wooly line separate from my normal line as much as possible. I think that those who buy wool really don't care if the rabbit is purebred, as long as it produces pretty wool. At least, that's my opinion.

I'd also be interested to know if there can be satinized SF's show up! Could someone describe satin fur? I've never seen or felt one.

 

[skysthelimit]

I'm not even sure how to describe it, but what makes it shiny is the diameter of the guard hairs are thinner than normal fur and hollow, and that causes the light to pass through it in a way that the reflection of light makes it iridescent. I think that's the word I'm looking for. I wish I could earburn people like Ravelry so SatinsRule or OtterSatin could describe it more accurately.
I would have been a Satin breeder, if the fella who promised me Satins twice had followed up instead I got the Rex.

At the same show with the over Silvered Fox, the judge dinged quite a few Fox for having hairs too short, with the fur not really standing up. Longer is not a problem (to an extent), as long as it is not wool, and stands up. He recommended breeding FA with Fox, to increase the length of fur. I can only assume at some point that was done, which is why there are Wooly Fox somewhere.
With my Angora program decimated, and my barn on QT, I bred the FA to the Silver Fox. No plans to breed the kits back to the Fox, but to the Angora, but I will be surprised if I get anything Wooly in the first gen. It's hard to imagine a Wooly Fox actually having as much wool as an Angora, enough to sell it as a wooler. I will also find out very quickly if the SF have steel, as we assume the black FA may actually be a steel, or at least a steel carrier.

 

[Zass]

With my Angora program decimated, and my barn on QT, I bred the FA to the Silver Fox. No plans to breed the kits back to the Fox, but to the Angora, but I will be surprised if I get anything Wooly in the first gen. It's hard to imagine a Wooly Fox actually having as much wool as an Angora, enough to sell it as a wooler. I will also find out very quickly if the SF have steel, as we assume the black FA may actually be a steel, or at least a steel carrier.

I love to see the fur from those kits. I've sold plenty of FA cross pelts, they didn't have the density, or the length, but they do have a very soft wispy texture that's uncommon, and of course, they produce rainbow litters. Never bred one to a silver fox though.

 

[skysthelimit]

Yeah, it was either that or the Rex, Jersey Woolies would drastically reduce the size, and the Rex have a gene that shortens the guard hairs, definitely not want I want in a breed that has more guard hairs than English.

 

[Zass]

Steel is so annoying dominant, it wouldn't have to be carrier to show if your foxes had it. Just any visible agouti would be best (agouti are confirmed non-carriers) Since it only takes one copy of the gene to turn a perfectly good agouti into a gold tipped steel (or an opal into a gold tipped blue steel)
ARGH, Steel rabbits are beautiful, but MAN, is it annoying when it turns up where it shouldn't be! It's going to cost me at least a year to clean it out of my rabbitry. Worse if my best growing kits happen to be steels.

 

[skysthelimit]

Steel is so annoying dominant, it wouldn't have to be carrier to show if your foxes had it. Just any visible agouti would be best (agouti are confirmed non-carriers) Since it only takes one copy of the gene to turn a perfectly good agouti into a gold tipped steel (or an opal into a gold tipped blue steel)
ARGH, Steel rabbits are beautiful, but MAN, is it annoying when it turns up where it shouldn't be! It's going to cost me at least a year to clean it out of my rabbitry. Worse if my best growing kits happen to be steels.

No Agoutis, he's a black, so I assume he is a carrier because of mislabeled colors in the ped. Better yet, it's even possible that the is not really a black, but genetically a super steel. It will take another cross for another time to confirm, as my only agoutis are Rex. He may also carry non extension and white.

 

[Zass]

I think my fox buck is a super steel, he's got those darned REW foxes on both sides of his ped, and hasn't thrown me any agouti kits at all when crossed to one. In theory I should have gotten a 50-50 ratio.
Now, my doe is probably clean, of steel at least, so I'll guess my massive jr buck probably has only one copy.
I'm going to have to say, seeing what has popped up in others "foxes" that I'm glad it's ONLY something so
"obvious" as steel and REW, and nothing worse. I probably aught to do a backcross with that jr buck of mine, to turn up anything hidden the doe might have.

 

[skysthelimit]

I can deal with blue eyes. Not very fond of Torts in any breed.

 

[Zass]

Tort fox...reminds me of the description of the Alaskan red fox rabbits I've read online actually. More so then a rex kind of red. I've seen actual Alaskan foxes(not rabbits) for sale with dark ears, muzzle and lots of frost.

It would take a really good tort color though, like a cinnamon, to pull it off.