Silver fox advice...more..haha (pics buried)

[Zass]

Seems like we have a lot of fox people on here, which is really cool, because it's the breed I've fallen in love with.
Been through some troubles with them, as my first breed. I had people sell me mutts claiming they were foxes back when I didn't know a thing about rabbits.(culled) I've had a crazy neurotic doe that I paid more for then any other(grand champion lines), who went spastic every time she SAW a human being. (culled, because she kept injuring herself in terror when I was feeding her or replacing the water bottle)

I finally have gotten lucky, I think, and have a good pair of rabbits to work with.
AG fox lines like I've mentioned on the bucks side, and the doe has twin willows, I think, and cute buns, going back to mostly collins rabbits. He carries blue, REW and steel though.
and her dams a chocolate. I've heard something about there being an issue with newly introduced chocolate. I'd like to hear more about that. What's the issue, and when is considered newly introduced?

My kits are nice and clean with even silvering and no white spots at least, and I've had some excellent growth rates and dress outs. They are friendly and docile enough for my 5 year old to show. I haven't had the kits to any shows yet(except for 4-H), but I plan on attending some next summer.


I'm really interested in producing the best rabbits I can. Not just for show traits (since I primarily raise for meat), but for temperament and fecundity as well. I only have about 7 holes for permanent rabbits, and foxes very rare where I'm at. I personally only have the one pair, the nice buck they produced, and the new girl with no ped. (and a lovely litter that will be ready next week, mostly does, and nice looking , I think)

I guess I just wanted to start up a discussion about foxes in general. And what you guys thought of the steel and REW. Should I breed it out, or is it OK to sell rabbits that carry this? I have no problems telling breeders that these things have popped up when the buck was crossed with my mutts. (the REW foxes are on pedigree, I've read that they used those in the lines because of the growth their kits produced)

Also, I've recently picked up a little doe who has some white spots on her. She's unpedigreed and underweight due to being a pasture rabbit. But has a wonderful plush coat and cuddly fox temperament, she came from a large litter.(my current doe only seems to be able to give me 6) I'm pretty sure the parents were from Ohio.
Should I even risk seeing what she throws? My first plan is to cross her with my mutt buck to turn up hidden recessives (he's an agouti who carries dilute, chocolate, and rew, it should turn up steel as well). After that. who knows? Is a more or less genetically clean fox with white spots better than one that looks better but carries rew and steel? My understanding is that most breeders won't know if their foxes have steel unless they just happened too cross to an agouti for meat mutts. I'm willing to place bets on the fact that there are lots of breeders of fox right now who have no clue their rabbits have steel.

Also, for those who have white spots on their foxes, when do the white spots show up? I mean, can you see them in the nestbox, or would I have to watch for them later. I'd hate to sell a rabbit at 8 weeks, only to have the buyer call me back later and ask where the white came from.

What should I sell such rabbits for? I have NO problems with sending most of what I produce to freezer camp, but I'd hate to destroy all of these rabbits when it was so hard, and took so long for ME to find silver fox of at least this quality.
It's all a rather big deal to me, since silver fox are so rare and tend to go for about $50 each, and I want to make darn sure I'm selling foxes that are actually worth that before sticking that kind of price tag on a bunny.

 

[Dood]

I would use the better fur quality, nicely bodied, more reproductive and good tempered Fox that carry non SOP genes as a tool to improve stock.

I think that as long as you disclose to buyers that they are carriers, and make a note of this on the pedigree, its okay but your final plan should be to eventually cull them out.

I am doing this with my AmChins. Slowly (as I wont comprimise production qualities for colour) my stock is getting more show worthy and I test breed to a steel mutt buck who carries self and REW and have managed to get the REW out my replacement does. Next I will work on removing self and finally the non-extension. By then I'll need a new buck and may try and get a fawn Flemish cross to see if I get any frosties instead of using my sisters magpie mini lop

 

[phillinley]

You don't breed it out, you just get rid of rabbits who produce white spotted kits. There is no better than the other between white spots vs the white/steel. They both will give out kits that will be unshowable, and you're just making new showers have a terrible time of it if you sell them those rabbits. The white silver fox will never be a variety, anyone who tells you otherwise is misinformed or has already heard the standards committee's statement on it and choose to ignore it. So breeding for white to develop it as a show breed is a waste of time.

If you have a history of chocolate in the background, make sure the you aren't selling as heritage fox. There are many breeders who set a distinct line of black/blue only (barring the weirdness of the 60-80s outcrosses that are so far back you can't even worry about), and a distinct line for the choc/lilac carriers.

As for what to sell and not to sell, we only sell silver fox that we ourselves would put on the table continuously. We get some fox that we raise out to juniors that still just don't cut it. We have a doe we're giving away who only as a meat rabbit, because although she is show quality (no dq's) and could win a leg against other poor foxes, her type is just not what you want in a silver fox. We could sell that rabbit to someone else to show, but that's not fair to a new breeder who doesn't know any better. That's the advice I would give to sales. Who are you selling it to? If it's a meat raiser, you're interested in good growout rates, good maternal behavior, who cares about the color. If you are selling for a shower, think about whether this rabbit can actually perform on the show table for your purchaser or will the rabbit be a bane to them with what it produces in the nestbox for the next couple of years.

 

[Zass]

OK, so I'll assume with all the colors on my peds, the blue, REW(and the newly discovered hidden steel)+ the chocolate on the other side, I can safely say that these are NOT heritage foxes. I might as well market them as meat and fur type foxes only.

I'll be honest, as a pelt tanner, I'm in love with color, I certainly wouldn't want to lose it. Most of my break even margin comes from the sale of pelts. So I might as well be happy that I have non-heritage rabbits, cause I'd probably just ruin them working towards colors anyway.
We show our rabbits for fun whenever we get the chance, to learn about type and conformation, and what good rabbits need to look like, but selling for show isn't necessary.(It's just the question every 4-h kids asks, "Can they be shown?" what should I answer with? There is usually NO ONE else within several hours of here advertising silver fox for sale, so I can't just direct them to the nearest place, I don't even know a place within driving distance(5 hours) that I would buy rabbits from,not saying they don't exist, but I've been looking for 2 years now)
Also, since everyone who doe have foxes in my state seems to focus on the show type, what's the going price on good meat type foxes?

 

[phillinley]

Also, since everyone who has foxes around me seems to focus on the show type, what's the going price on good meat type foxes?

I wouldn't know on that one since we give away our meat non-show rabbits for free.

As far as the 4-h kids go. Ask them what they are using their rabbit for. If it's just to show one time at 4-H, then sure that's fine as long as the phenotype of a silver fox is there, just warn them if they ever change their mind they might have problems with conformation in the litters.

 

[Zass]

Also, since everyone who has foxes around me seems to focus on the show type, what's the going price on good meat type foxes?

I wouldn't know on that one since we give away our meat non-show rabbits for free.

Mine are far too valuable on the dinner table to give any away for free!

 

[phillinley]

Mine are far too valuable on the dinner table dinner table to give any away for free!

Since we don't eat ours we don't have that quandary. I'm not saying you should give them away, just that I wouldn't be a good gauge of it, since I give most of our stock away.

 

[skysthelimit]

Unless you are absolutely sure that the rabbit will never be bred, never sell anything you would not want to keep yourself. Somehow, it will wind up back in the pool.

Several members, including myself, have gotten rabbits from CL, for meat breeding purposes, and decided we wanted to show, or just breed, and wound up with something that should not be bred.
I cull anything that would not be showable, or would produce DQ kits, even if I'm selling for meat. My meat herd is my show herd, and so they still have to meet the SOP for their respective breeds.


Chocolates are being worked on diligently by M. Collins. The problem with it is Satins were used to introduce the color, and with that, comes a host of recessive color genes that ride on the back of that chocolates. People are heatedly for or against. I don't find them attractive, but if people want them, let them have them. I do believe they will eventually pass, and with them, perhaps lilac. I am eagerly waiting for Blue to pass this year though.
White spots are easy, you can see those at birth most of the time, and I would cull those at birth, but I want the meat, and sometimes the pelt depending on where and how the spots(s) appear.

As far as I can tell, meat type fox price are the same as show type fox, it's pretty rare that anyone has fox that aren't showing, they're just that rare here. Can't really help there, because I haven't bought any meat only buns in a few years now.

 

[Zass]

It's easy to cull...culls are delicious. It's sharing the fox that I'm concerned with.

 

[phillinley]

Unless you are absolutely sure that the rabbit will never be bred, never sell anything you would not want to keep yourself. Somehow, it will wind up back in the pool.

Several members, including myself, have gotten rabbits from CL, for meat breeding purposes, and decided we wanted to show, or just breed, and wound up with something that should not be bred.

Well if I tell someone they aren't show quality, and I'm only giving it out as a meat rabbit, and they decide to show it anyway, I'm not going be too sad about someone getting bad show kits because they stubbornly refused to heed the information I gave them about the rabbits they are receiving.

We have lots of people in our area who are looking to raise rabbits for personal consumption. A lot of them have trouble paying to get good meat on the table. I've got some excellent buns who can serve that purpose, and I'll continue to give those out to people who need them to start up a meat program at home.

 

[skysthelimit]

Unless you are absolutely sure that the rabbit will never be bred, never sell anything you would not want to keep yourself. Somehow, it will wind up back in the pool.

Several members, including myself, have gotten rabbits from CL, for meat breeding purposes, and decided we wanted to show, or just breed, and wound up with something that should not be bred.

Well if I tell someone they aren't show quality, and I'm only giving it out as a meat rabbit, and they decide to show it anyway, I'm not going be too sad about someone getting bad show kits because they stubbornly refused to heed the information I gave them about the rabbits they are receiving.

We have lots of people in our area who are looking to raise rabbits for personal consumption. A lot of them have trouble paying to get good meat on the table. I've got some excellent buns who can serve that purpose, and I'll continue to give those out to people who need them to start up a meat program at home.

I'm talking about DQ's like white spots, that will find there way into the gene pool. Not necessarily conformational defects, or not the perfect bun, unless they are serious enough to take away fro the purpose of the Fox, meat and pelts.

BUT, if anyone gets anything from me, if would have been something that was good enough that I would have bred it, not something I would have culled myself. I offer my second string, not my culls. No one will ever get a Fox with a white spot, a blue eye or white carrier (knowingly) from me, for any reason, with the exception of test breeding ones herd. With a litter of 8-10, and being able to keep only 1-2, there is no reason I can't find something more useful for that person.

I sell met buns, I don't sell culls.

 

[Mickey328]

We breed only for meat. I never say "never" in regard to showing, but it's something in which we have no interest at this point. After deciding on a heritage breed, I narrowed it down to Am Blues and SF. Ultimately, I chose SF because, while not common, there are a few available locally. Last January, I attended a show and purchased a buck and 2 does, all juniors. The buck is a blue and the does were blacks, good types, excellent fur, size and temperament (although a bit skittish, not an aggressive hair on their bodies). Both does "caught" on the first mating. Unfortunately, I found one with 2 dead kits on the wire and the doe dead in the nest box. I've no idea what happened The other produced just 3 kits, 2 of which survived...a black buck and a blue doe. I was disappointed with the breeding, to say the least. About 2 months ago, I put the remaining doe in with the buck. Also put in a little mutt I'd acquired. A month later...nothing from the SF but danged if the tiny little doe (3 lbs to the buck's 10) produced 7 perfectly healthy kits and is an excellent mother.

I have interest locally in the black SF buck, and am asking $30 for him. He's actually quite calm and a very sweet rabbit; I'm only selling him cuz I fell in love with him, dont' want to eat him and don't need another buck at this point. Although I'd have preferred to have both SF does to be black, I'm keeping the blue doe to replace the one that died. The mutts are destined for the table. I wouldn't even consider selling them other than for food. While the kits are quite friendly and have excellent temperaments, I've no idea yet how they'll grow out. The SF genes seem strong...of the 7, 3 are black and 4 are blue. They're just over a month old now so I'll start weaning them off over the next week or two; they're all eating and drinking well.

There doesn't seem to be a market for meat rabbits here in northern Colorado, but people are interested in raising their own and SF are findable, although not common. I paid $35 each for the does when I bought them and $40 for the buck. Since there were only the 2 breeders at the show, I'm not sure how those prices compare, but I suspect that's about the going rate around here.

 

[WildWolf]

Just wanted to point out: I have a SF doe who was born with a white spot on her forehead, and now she has no spot at all. Also, she just threw 1 with a spot on its forehead and 1 with a barely noticeable white speck on its forehead.

I personally don't show. I think that there's nothing wrong with keeping those non SOP traits, as long as you always tell the person buying your SF about the recessive genes. And don't sell your choclate/lilac SFs as heritage.

About price... I paid $35 for a nice, big, meat SF (but that was in WI), and $40 for my other 2 SF (but that was half price because I was a new SF breeder). I think it just depends on the nearby market.

My experience with SF has been wonderful. All 3 of mine are very sweet and friendly, and my doe has raised her kits very well. Good luck with yours!

 

[phillinley]

I'm talking about DQ's like white spots, that will find there way into the gene pool. Not necessarily conformational defects, or not the perfect bun, unless they are serious enough to take away fro the purpose of the Fox, meat and pelts.

If I have a buyer just interested in raising meat rabbits for their own use and I tell them they have a white spot, they will ask:
Does it affect the taste?
No.
Does it affect the growth rate?
No.
Does it affect them raising kits?
No.
Then who cares. I'll take it.


Health is the only thing that concerns me when giving out a rabbit for meat purposes. If I have a kid who shows up at an arba show a year or two down the line who has rabbits with mismatched toenails and says he bought them from someone who I know I sold SF fox to just for meat raising, I'll set the kid up with a brand new trio without those defects for free. I don't change the way I give out rabbits because the minority might abuse the system at the expense of the majority who really want quality meat for their table. But I will fix it when that minority does try to sell them as show rabbits.

 

[Dood]

I think the problem is in calling them 'Silver Fox'

I breed mutts and purebred AmChins, I lump my purebred AmChins that carry self, REW and non extension into the mutt category or as Chinchilla crosses. Anyone who wants production breeding stock, many of which are chinchilla coloured, could care less but the rare person wants pure blood and doesn't want surprises in the nest box and to these I sell pedigreed AmChins who's parents have been test bred and who DON'T carry anything they shouldn't. These are the ones I consider deserving of the title "American Chinchilla"

 

[skysthelimit]

I'm talking about DQ's like white spots, that will find there way into the gene pool. Not necessarily conformational defects, or not the perfect bun, unless they are serious enough to take away fro the purpose of the Fox, meat and pelts.

If I have a buyer just interested in raising meat rabbits for their own use and I tell them they have a white spot, they will ask:
Does it affect the taste?
No.
Does it affect the growth rate?
No.
Does it affect them raising kits?
No.
Then who cares. I'll take it.


Health is the only thing that concerns me when giving out a rabbit for meat purposes. If I have a kid who shows up at an arba show a year or two down the line who has rabbits with mismatched toenails and says he bought them from someone who I know I sold SF fox to just for meat raising, I'll set the kid up with a brand new trio without those defects for free. I don't change the way I give out rabbits because the minority might abuse the system at the expense of the majority who really want quality meat for their table. But I will fix it when that minority does try to sell them as show rabbits.

Then we will agree to disagree, but I will not put anything out there that I would not want to breed. I have enough kits to choose from that I don't have to, and enough uses for culls for them to be born and die here.<br /><br />__________ Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:12 pm __________<br /><br />

I think the problem is in calling them 'Silver Fox'

I breed mutts and purebred AmChins, I lump my purebred AmChins that carry self, REW and non extension into the mutt category or as Chinchilla crosses. Anyone who wants production breeding stock, many of which are chinchilla coloured, could care less but the rare person wants pure blood and doesn't want surprises in the nest box and to these I sell pedigreed AmChins who's parents have been test bred and who DON'T carry anything they shouldn't. These are the ones I consider deserving of the title "American Chinchilla"

Pretty much. Being as rare a breed as they are, someone thinking they finally found some, and then breeding and getting REW, or Tort, or whatever, not making weight, kindling issues, that would be a disappointment. I can be as picky as I possibly can, I stand by what I do, and I ask others to do the same. People will do as they please, but I will still make the request.

 

[phillinley]

I can be as picky as I possibly can, I stand by what I do, and I ask others to do the same. People will do as they please, but I will still make the request.

I absolutely stand by what I sell (well, give away mostly). I'm selling you a non-showable meat rabbit. I stand buy that. If you sell someone a show quality silver fox and they breed it with an American Chinchilla and they pass it off as a silver fox from your lines is that your fault? No. That's no different than selling someone a non-showable meat rabbit and passing it off as showable. Give out truthful information about what you are trying to sell, educate the buyer as much as possible, and that's all you can do. Dishonest people will distort what you sell them regardless how good or bad the rabbit is.

We have sold one purebred showable SF blue that we later discovered had a mismatched toenail (very hard to tell, only one judge of the three that weekend who saw it spotted it). Buyer was instantly refunded and is being given another SF blue for free. She also kept the mismatched bun anyway because she thought it would be an excellent meat producer. Some people see the value of certain rabbits as producers and don't croak them the moment they look at them funny.

 

[Zass]

I think the problem is in calling them 'Silver Fox'

That's an interesting point. Siver fox being as rare as they are, unless someone happens to leave near someone who owns such untainted sock, it can be REALLY hard to find a rabbit deserving of that title. In two years of constant searching (within a 5 hours drive of my location, that is) the only animal I've met that might fit those qualifications was so insane that I had to put her down myself. Since I do breed for meat and fur more than anything, I think I'll settle for a rabbit that preforms the function I need of it, and cull for sop while I'm at it. No problem to not breed or sell the doe with the white spots (I'll add her to my mix breed program, I still want to see dilute agouti colors on foxy coats, and don't think white spots will hurt my market for them any)
If I pick one up from someone else I can only hope it will be out of cleaner stock.
I'm not scrapping the line with the hidden steel cause they are the only quality rabbits with silvered fur and foxy coats that meet breed sop I've been able to find. Who knows? maybe I'll successfully root out the impure genes and end up with rabbits worth selling as quality silver fox a dozen years down the road.
They have to preform as meat and fur animals first though, with good tempers and large litters, because it wasn't purity that made me fall in love with the fox, it was their versatility and personality.

 

[phillinley]

. In two years of constant searching (within a 5 hours drive of my location, that is) the only animal I've met that might fit those qualifications was so insane that I had to put her down myself.

Then you might not be looking in the right places. Here's a breeder map that is just a scratching on the surface of breeders:
https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&m ... 0bd8a0dfe6
You'll see a large empty section in Iowa and Illinois, there's about 8 breeders in there that show SF against us, so the list is far from complete. I would estimate maybe half of the people who went to nationals are even on that list.
The Silver Fox group has been turned to secret on accident. Give either us or skyisthelimit your facebook name and we can add you to the list. You post you need Silver Fox there and your location and you will definitely be able to find people with good stock in your region.
Timing is also an issue. A lot of the top showers breed twice a year, right now to get ready for nationals, and in spring to get ready for the convention. Currently there are a lot of great silver fox that are for sale that are going to convention who are juniors or 6-8's. This is the time to strike for that great stock. You will be buying stock that the breeders themselves found good enough to enter at convention. Even if you can't make it to Harrisburg for the convention, as long as you live a couple hours from I-80 or I-70 somewhere along the way in PA, you can meet up with people returning from con and pre-buy the best rabbits for you before they show.

Given your location, you are probably going to have the best SF selection you will ever have. Don't miss the opportunity. Also don't fall for this incredibly rare term (perhaps in your area, but not throughout the country). ALBC's criteria is incredibly flawed. They have been jumping in numbers greatly over the last couple of years. They are on the verge of leaving Franco Rios' rare breed list and with current convention numbers will do so after the next SOP (the list is determined every five years coinciding with each new Standard of Perfection update).

 

[Zass]

That is excellent advice.

I'm in north east PA. The closest breeders on that map are around Cleveland or Buffalo. 2.5 hours away. I have tried contacting breeders from their webpages in those areas, and had no luck so far getting anyone to reply. Might not have been persistent enough.

I'd have to make a facebook account just for this, if that's really the only way to get in touch.

I'll be honest though, I don't want my name or location on facebook. It's way too much of an invasion of privacy to me.

What are the chances that most breeders have ever tested their buns for steel? I'm willing to put money on it entering the lines along with the rew, so if I'm picky about that I'll have higher chances of finding what I'm looking for in a fox.

In the end, I'm a butcher and a tanner/furrier, I really do prefer rabbits with colors. I'm seeing a huge pickup in that market. Something like the keyword of this generation being "sustainable" and because rabbits are eaten and produce virtually no pollution, people tend no to be as shy of it as they are of most furbearing animals.

Showing to me is just a fun afternoon to spend with the kids, not a primary concern. I'm a little scared of people's show stock being neurotic, having slow growth or having poor litters/milk supply/mothering ability, you know, things judges can't see.