Silver fox advice...more..haha (pics buried)

[Secuono]

I thought they should be 1-1.5in length, soft, but not technically shiny. Many are shiny and those tend to have 'flatter' fur, which isn't a good thing. Flat would mean it lays back down moreso than it should.
My firt foxes were wonderful, not many are crossed and just bred for their name and not following standards...It's depressing...

 

[skysthelimit]

I would not say soft. Soft brings to mind Angora, but normal fur with normal guard hairs isn't soft. Maybe silky. Even Rex fur should not be soft, it's resilient, press it down and it springs back like velvet. Soft fur results in core hocks, a plague of the breed. Smooth is a better word to describe the idea Rex fur but not silky.

The SF should have a natural glossy black sheen to the coat, heavy on guard hairs (which make the black sheen), put it next to the Rex and the Rex absorbs the light (which is why I can tell Rex fur through a picture) and the SF coat reflects it. The SOP for SF says "long and dense as possible with plenty of luster and life". 1 1/2 inches is idea, but there is nothing against a bit longer, but shorter is a fault. Extremely fine or coarse fur and lacking in density is a fault. It goes on to say the two paramount features of the breed are the "long fur, which is evenly silvered, and their ability to produce meat."

 

[Frecs]

I raise Silver Fox rabbits as a meat herd. Seems this conversation is a popular one on every group and forum I am on…. I guess it is because of all the odd genes showing up and the breeders who are TRYING to breed in colors…it’s just got everyone’s dander up. I just don’t have time or energy for dandering about it. ;-)

Even if I wanted to sell “show quality” I can not with this current herd. They all link back to “Summer 4” through Starck’s herd (no, Starck is not the one who brought the genes in, she is the one who discovered them). I’ve confirmed one doe as being a wool gene carrier by breeding her back to her son (or is that, her son back to her…anyway). I’ve not been able to test for the harli gene. I don’t even feel right selling “meat herd” quality from my herd at this point as I don’t want to perpetuate the wool and harli genes. Another doe throws a lot of forehead spots and even though they eventually blend into the silvering, I know it and don’t want to pass that along to someone else.

I had a choice to make: scrap my herd and start over or keep what I have and make the best of it. I chose the latter. I’m going to work on building a good meat herd (read: improve the size and grow-out rates). I’m not sweating the wool gene. In fact, truth be told, I’m going to take advantage of it. I have a FA/SF buck who is going to play a role in adding some size to this herd. My purebred SF buck (wool carrier) will help keep the type good (he is a beautiful, but lightly silvered buck). My does are strongly silvered, good mothers of large litters. And, yes, I’ll be playing a bit with developing a woolie SF because…well, because it is GORGEOUS wool! Or at least it seems to be so far…we’ll see how the adult wool turns out.

In my opinion, if you are keeping a closed rabbitry and nothing is going out as a Silver Fox (not even as a unpedigreed Silver Fox) – play all you want. If, OTOH, you are selling them as pedigreed Silver Foxes, PLEASE don’t sell junk! If they aren’t to the SOP or they have a recessive gene that is highly undesirable – don’t let it out of your rabbitry. That’s just my opinion – that and a $1 will not buy you a cup of coffee.

 

[Zass]

I can at least show (maybe not win, but it's still fun), eat, and take pelts from what I'm making now, so no regrets.
I think I can safely sell to locals as a meat line. (with a warning about the rew and hidden steel) Almost all of the people approaching me want backyard herd rabbits, and won't mind that, or the colors. But I think that brings the price WAY down. I still have LOTS of things to test breed for too.

Exactly 3 months apart in age. My boy Xerx is 16 weeks old, the kits are 4
Yep, that guys a baby.

 

[Frecs]

That's a BIG baby!

Yes, it brings the price way down from what you can get for good show quality SFs. But, here's the other thing I've learned along the way: in order to get good prices for show quality you gotta work the show circuit. I simply can not afford to do that. Even the closest shows are several hours away. It just isn't worth it for me to get involved in working that angle so I can make more money. I have some acquaintances who raise Silver Foxes and are working that angle because they can afford to--more power to them. I attended a couple of shows as a on-looker. I enjoyed them. But, realized it was a financial and time commitment I just couldn't make.

 

[skysthelimit]

Sadly, the blues did not pass this year. they can get another try next year. But Meara Collins' COD for the Chocolate has expired. The fate of the Chocolates passes on to a new set of breeders, so we shall see. As long as Meara has been breeding in the chocolate colors, thing still pop up.

 

[AnnClaire]

I love, love, love my Silver Foxes ... their personalities are so different from my English Angoras! Both are awesome as far as personalities and mothering ability, and my foxes give me 7-11 kits each litter! In fact, I have a litter of 9 that is right at 4 weeks old from a doe I bought from a lady in New Mexico and I bred her to a buck I got from a lady in New York LOL Yes, I have to have my stock transported to me, so I am buying sight-unseen and having to "trust" the breeder. But, I also spent 2 years joining groups and "talking" to breeders and watching what they posted before I bought. I also asked for a pedigree and bought based on the bloodlines in the background.

I can second the recommendation of Jo or Jeff Temm-Douglass (Whippoorwill Farms) as Jeff has amazing stock (3 purchases from him here) and he makes transport runs several times each year. I am also going to be boarding another Whippoorwill Farms buck for a friend and will be using him to breed a few litters too. I can also recommend Dawn Moore, Josette Boucher Schrader (both on FB) as excellent breeders (Josette is the breeder of my original herd buck )

As for white spots, anywhere other than on the head between the ears is a spot that will not go away, but could have been caused by an injury. I bought a blue doe that had scarred hips from an injury ... nothing wrong with her genetics, so not passed to the kits. I do, however get a white spot on a kit or two each litter from the herd buck ... but these are a natural feature of the wild rabbits and should shed out when the junior coat comes in with the silvering. I do full disclosure on those and have a replacement herd buck now, so that will not be an issue in the future. His first litter is due next week and will begin the test breeding for white spots in the does.

It is sad that the blues didn't pass COD this year, but they have one more year before the COD passes to someone else. I also have a blue doe from Phil's son here (Javi's Hoppers) and she was haystaching yesterday, but no fur pulling or kits yet ... big storm coming in tonight/tomorrow, so she will probably kindle in the middle of that LOL She is also my largest doe and was the one that took the longest to decide she was ready to breed LOL If she gets any bigger, I will have to build her a larger nest box

One thing I have learned the past couple of years is that all breeding stock should be test bred for non-standard genetics IMHO ... too many people "breed for money" rather than for the betterment of the breed ... not that making money with rabbits is bad, but like what happened to american lines of german shepherds, rotweilers, and cocker spaniels, greed took over and the breeds are still paying the price with lethal/disabling genetics or temperment problems.

One contributing factor of the non=standard issues is, of course, the fact that the Silver Fox breed was almost extinct, so, at one point in time, new blood had to be brought in (ca 1970's or so), and there were several other breeds that were used ... New Zealand is only one and that influence is lingering to this day.

I am on the list with Sandra Stark to get one of her long wooled SFs

 

[skysthelimit]

Tell me how that goes with the long wooled. I did the cross because I am having a hard time with my Angoras in general, and they are just too expensive to keep replacing like that. I'm going to keep crossing back to the angora buck, but this will give me a chance to see if the wool gene is in anything I have here. If I get woolies the first gen,that will be a clue, lol.

The verdict is in for the blue eyed ones. Now that they are old enough, the eye was marbled, and now it's blue like self chin. So whatever I have going on with them, is not the same as the other with the whole white leg. There white spots are probably separate from the blue eye issue, that' looks like it's self chin. I will breed the doe to my Rex agouti buck next.

I lost my GC eligible SF buck with the ME plague, and my replacements will come from the blue kits here. So it looks like I will have an entire barn of blue SF soon, one of the reasons I was so desperate for them to pass this year, I have to reduce my herd, but still have kits for Mini Convention, so I culled quite a few blue, because I would not be able to show them this year, and needed space for the black. If the blue had passed, I would have kept more blue.

 

[Zass]

darn, you should have sold me one of your blues!

I could really use a blue doe to make lots of pretty pelts.

Also I've had a horrible time with angoras and disease. Had to walk away from someone trying to sell me VERY sick(***** faced) animals for $100 - $150 each. Had to cull others for it. Angoras seem to have weak immune systems.

 

[Honorine]

REW has been in Silver Fox for decades, its not anything new. Its there, nearly everyone knows it, just tell people. Steel is a pain, I would test breed and try to get rid of it. I didn't know that Mearas COD had expired, I believe that Jo is the backup COD holder, I'll have to ask her. Both of these ladies have kept their chocolate lines separate from their black/blue lines, I know Jo does, as I got a doe from her for a 4Her a while back, and she was very clear on what the doe carried and what it didn't, and said she didn't mix the lines. I'm in NEPA, I know 4-5 breeders in this area, few more from NY, I don't really consider Silver Fox all that rare anymore, lot of them on the east coast. Three kids in the Carbon County 4H had them at one time. Hit PASRBA this year, you'll meet a bunch of SF breeders. Full disclosure is the best policy, and breed the best eat the rest.

Just remembered the Lebanon and MARCS shows coming up Nov 9th and 10th, their at the Lebanon Expo center

 

[skysthelimit]

I didn't know that Mearas COD had expired, I believe that Jo is the backup COD holder, I'll have to ask her. Both of these ladies have kept their chocolate lines separate from their black/blue lines, I know Jo does, as I got a doe from her for a 4Her a while back, and she was very clear on what the doe carried and what it didn't, and said she didn't mix the lines. I'm in NEPA, I know 4-5 breeders in this area, few more from NY, I don't really consider Silver Fox all that rare anymore, lot of them on the east coast. Three kids in the Carbon County 4H had them at one time. Hit PASRBA this year, you'll meet a bunch of SF breeders. Full disclosure is the best policy, and breed the best eat the rest.

Yes, I believe Jo, I thought Dawn, and someone else I'm forgetting, and they are right there in step, so there will be no lag time.
PASRBA is one of my favorite shows, the Rex club there is a great bunch of people.<br /><br />__________ Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:27 am __________<br /><br />

darn, you should have sold me one of your blues!

I could really use a blue doe to make lots of pretty pelts.

Also I've had a horrible time with angoras and disease. Had to walk away from someone trying to sell me VERY sick(***** faced) animals for $100 - $150 each. Had to cull others for it. Angoras seem to have weak immune systems.

Nope, the SF had to be culled. I had a horrible time with the Me plague here this summer, anything I could not keep had to be culled, I wasn't taking any chances. I have some Woolies I no longer need because I'm not breeding Otters anymore, and I'm trying to keep from culling them. If the four litters on the ground now don't get sick and die, I might consider myself clean and sell the Woolies. Right now, I'm in QT and calling out "leper" to anyone who passes by.

the latest Angora started blowing snot right after I brought her home, within 24hrs. I am seriously not buying anymore for at least a year.

 

[Zass]

Those white spots some SF get on their foreheads that disappear later, like wild cottontails actually. Does anyone know of other breeds who occasionally get those?

 

[Dood]

I have one AmChin doe who has had a couple (like 3 out of 60) kits with small white spots on their forehead.

 

[tailwagging]

cremes and bruns

 

[AnnClaire]

Zass, this is the blue doe I got from Phil's son ... she is AWESOME (in my not-so humble opinion LOL)



Yeah, she has some summer rust LOL, but she has the most amazing dewlap Jessica Rabbit proportions even.

Right now, I have her bred to my overly silvered buck that looks almost like a Champaigne d'Argent She needs a bit more silvering on her head, but I won't know how well that works until the kits get their silvering.

 

[Zass]

The best difference between breeding dogs and rabbits, in my opinion, is that buns with poor genetics NEVER have to leave the property. They are delicious with sauce.

I already mixed up chocolate with blue lines, hoping to get lilac foxes eventually. Not for sale, for pelts. I really do have a market for things like that.
I wouldn't mind a non-chocolate carrying doe with blue to breed with my just blue carrier buck though so I could keep a clean line.

I need a good hindquarter, and really good hips.

 

[skysthelimit]

That should not be hard to find. It's that shoulder that's hard to get and hard to keep.

 

[Zass]

That's my baby buck (5 months and a week, 9 lbs 2 oz), I'm still pretty clueless about posing though.
The fur is all laying down, but I had a photo op so I took it.

What do you think? Good, bad, ugly?

My main problem is that I can't seem to get all of my rabbits to grow that fast.

He just finished kissing my ear, when a doe does that I don't mind, but bucks I don't trust...

could just-any fluffy rabbit be mooshed into a round shape like this for a pic? I'm really THAT inexperienced with shows and posing, plz forgive me.
I am a fast learner. I'll get this pretty quick.
If I posed a good rabbit wrong would he look like a bad rabbit?

 

[Southbound_SF]

I'm no expert, Zass, but I'm seeing a niiice round shape - good rise early, continues through to the end. Would love to see a good top photo for width.

SB

 

[Zass]

There's my attempt at a top view of a posed fox. I can't say I did very good at all though. He wanted little to do with what I had in mind! Think I got a lucky shot on the side view, made it look like I knew what I was doing.

Was I trying to moosh him up too much? I tried to get his elbows on the ground too, but he kept jumping and trying to push off my hand.

He's such a spoiled kid, I gave him some boss as a thank-you for putting up with me
eh he still has a bit of a baby face