Frecs
Well-known member
Any way to get a bale of hay from another source? until you can verify the safety of the hay you have been using...????
ANOTHER MYSTERY DEATH!!! HELP PLEASE!!!
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ohiogoatgirl
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i cant afford to buy hay right now. rabbits, goats, guinea pigs. several of each due to have babies soon.
the hay i have is from this year in one field, and last year in a different field. so stopped using last years (which i was feeding that) and am feeding only this years hay.
i dont see any QAL in it so far. and it doesnt really have any weeds in it.
might be able to swing buying bag of alfalfa cubes. but right now i'm milking pennies to buy feed.
the hay i have is from this year in one field, and last year in a different field. so stopped using last years (which i was feeding that) and am feeding only this years hay.
i dont see any QAL in it so far. and it doesnt really have any weeds in it.
might be able to swing buying bag of alfalfa cubes. but right now i'm milking pennies to buy feed.
Frecs
Well-known member
Gotcha! Here's hoping! (crossing fingers and toes)
ohiogoatgirl
Well-known member
so i was talking about hay on the guinea pig group i'm on... and their several people are telling me QAL is poisonous and should be picked out of the hay. all of it.
i was of the understanding that it was just the flowerheads/seeds had the abortive/birth control qualities and that the stems were fine?
quoted from one person there... "It is very toxic if large quanities are consumed. For a guinea pig (or rabbit) I would imagine that one flower could be considered a large quantity"
i was of the understanding that it was just the flowerheads/seeds had the abortive/birth control qualities and that the stems were fine?
quoted from one person there... "It is very toxic if large quanities are consumed. For a guinea pig (or rabbit) I would imagine that one flower could be considered a large quantity"
Happy
Well-known member
It does contain a few drugs, so it's plausible that this is an "overdose".
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Maybe it's just the flowers and seeds, because QAL is just the wild carrot that all of our garden carrots come from. :thinking:
Happy
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The flowers are where the birth control supposedly comes from. I think it's distantly related to nightshade, which would make the green parts likely where the toxins are. I didn't realize there was an actual carrot under there.Miss M":vq2vfoj1 said:
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I didn't see any reference to nightshade (I had to go look it up!), but it is in the same family as poison hemlock and several other plants that are toxic to varying degrees.Happy":2c5ozcgt said:
It did say that a study done on mice somewhat confirmed the birth control effect of the seeds.
Yep, there is an actual carrot under there. It's my understanding that it's white, somewhat carroty, not sweet, and (like garden carrots) quickly becomes too tough and fibrous to eat. I could be wrong on any of those points, as I've never dug one up.
Happy
Well-known member
Hemlock's poison is in the flowers. Funny enough, we get more beneficial drugs form hemlock than any other plant. the reason is that the toxins in it affect the nerves. The eye drops that the doctor dilates your eyes with come froom hemlock.Miss M":33z1w1b9 said:
I looked up that same article because I'm not terribly familiar with QAL. It lacked enough citation that I can't really consider it terribly trustworthy. The nightshade thing was something I thought I remembered, but I could totally be wrong. A lot of things that we use for food are related to nightshade, potatoes being the most famous.
sommrluv
Well-known member
That is so horrible.sommrluv":5ldr1ql4 said:
I saw all the gas in the innards of that poor rabbit. So they can look like that right after they've died, no sitting?[/quote]I took it immediately outside and did a necropsy and it was bloated, full of gas, and STUNK. I don't believe it had those awful marks on the stomach though. This was a doe in quarantine and I had given everyone some willow branches right after Sandy (hurricane) rolled through, so I wasn't sure if it was an illness, a freak thing from a sharp piece of willow branch, or stress due to the 100 mph winds buffeting the sunroom where I quarantine. Almost all the does I bred right before/during the storm didn't take.
I think I have pictures if it could be of any help?
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You're right, but it at least did have the classification at right.Happy":1xo45975 said:
I do remember about the nightshades -- tomatoes and eggplants are nightshades, too. You cannot feed their greens.
The medicine my mom takes to help correct her heartbeat is Digitalis -- another deadly plant.
That would be great! Necropsies are a very important resource, and we appreciate having them. You could start your own thread, and put it in the Meat Rabbits section for now.sommrluv":1xo45975 said:
ohiogoatgirl
Well-known member
sommrluv":13ly2gqr said:That is so horrible.sommrluv":13ly2gqr said:
I took it immediately outside and did a necropsy and it was bloated, full of gas, and STUNK. I don't believe it had those awful marks on the stomach though. This was a doe in quarantine and I had given everyone some willow branches right after Sandy (hurricane) rolled through, so I wasn't sure if it was an illness, a freak thing from a sharp piece of willow branch, or stress due to the 100 mph winds buffeting the sunroom where I quarantine. Almost all the does I bred right before/during the storm didn't take.
I think I have pictures if it could be of any help?
i would appreciate that.
ohiogoatgirl":7mkcaxai said:
My rabbits eat QAL by the bucketful... young flowers and all. Once the flower starts to set seed, I pull the flowerhead off but still give them the rest of the plant. I know QAL shows up on some poisonous plant lists, but have concluded that it is only the seeds that are a problem. After all, it is genetically the same plant as garden carrots and the rabbits eat carrot greens with no issues.
Happy
Well-known member
Seed pods of the hemlock variants often contain ricin. This is plausible.
sommrluv
Well-known member
In this forum, do I have to host the photos myself to post them, or can I attach them?
Happy
Well-known member
If you click the "new reply" button at the bottom of your screen, there is an upload option. IDK the rules on how much space you get or any of that though. I just upload to facebook or tinypic and hotlink it (on other fora, I don't put many pics here), it's terribly easy that way. It also is convenient if you want to post the same pic on facebook for your friends there. if it's something gory like a rabbit necropsy, I would recommend making a tinypic or photobucket folder that is private, as some people will have "gore" removed from public view.sommrluv":3chpwxb0 said:
OneAcreFarm
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1
You can attach them directly, Summer! Go to Full Editor mode and then you will see the buttons underneath that allow you to attach a photo. Here is a helpful tutorial...
attachment-tutorial-t5.html
sommrluv":tn5p9myz said:
You can attach them directly, Summer! Go to Full Editor mode and then you will see the buttons underneath that allow you to attach a photo. Here is a helpful tutorial...
attachment-tutorial-t5.html
Happy
Well-known member
tl;drOneAcreFarm":3cib91xu said:
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Wow! Yeah, that would do it.Happy":30hcnzg4 said:
ohiogoatgirl
Well-known member
on ricin poison vie ingestion:
"Ricin exposure by ingestion (swallowing) typically results in symptoms in less than six hours following exposure. Symptoms include vomiting and diarrhea that may contain blood, possibly resulting in dehydration severe enough to cause low blood pressure, and blood in the urine. Ricin ingestion can also cause disturbances in the central nervous system, potentially leading to hallucinations or seizures. Within several days, multi-organ failure can result.
Depending on the degree of exposure, death can result within 36 to 72 hours from both inhalation and ingestion of ricin. "
this is all i could find for ingestion and syptoms that wasnt just all about eating castor beans >.<
and all my searching for ricin poisoning that ISNT about castor plant/beans..... nothing... so far.<br /><br />__________ Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:27 pm __________<br /><br />ok i found some stuff with ricin and rabbit.... but i dont understand most of it. not sure if it is helpful or not....
"The cardiovascular effects of ricin in rabbits."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8008720
"Ricin is a toxic lectin from the castor bean. The time course of its toxic effects on the cardiovascular system of rabbits was investigated after determining its LD50 and minimum lethal dose in rabbits by the Up and Down method, as a basis for dosing. Systolic and diastolic arterial pressures, electrocardiogram and heart rate were recorded for 48 hr following administration of either a toxic sublethal (0.22 microgram/kg) or minimum lethal dose (0.44 microgram/kg) of ricin. After a delayed onset of about 20 hr, the minimum lethal dose (0.44 microgram/kg) of ricin caused a significant decrease in both systolic and diastolic pressures (P < 0.05). The systolic and diastolic pressures decreased 0.47 and 0.39 mmHg/hr more so than control groups, respectively. A toxic sublethal dose (0.22 microgram/kg) of ricin did not significantly alter either systolic or diastolic pressure. Neither dose of ricin caused cardiac arrhythmias or significantly increased heart rate. We conclude that the lethal hypotensive sequelae of ricin toxicity in the rabbit were peripheral in origin and not cardiogenic at these two doses."
"Ricin disturbs calcium homeostasis in the rabbit heart."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8934635
Ricin, a toxic lectin from the castor bean, affects the cardiovascular system. Because calcium is very important in cardiotoxicity and cell intoxication, we studied the effects of ricin pretreatment to rabbits on basal intracellular calcium levels and calcium uptake and release from isolated papillary muscle, microsomes, and mitochondria. An increase in basal intracellular calcium levels was observed. Ricin pretreatment nearly doubled the intracellular-free Ca2+ concentration as measured by fura-2 fluorescence microscopy in isolated myocytes (p = 0.002). Ricin did not alter basal calcium efflux in isolated papillary muscles. However, ricin inhibited the NE-induced calcium efflux (expressed as fractional efflux ratios) in papillary muscles from rabbits receiving the minimum lethal dose of ricin at 25-35 minutes (p = 0.002 and 0.003, respectively). Ricin depressed basal calcium uptake into isolated papillary muscles at 5 minutes (mean +/- SEM, mumol/g wet weight) (control: 3.68 +/- 0.57; ricin: 2.31 +/- 0.28, p = 0.045, n = 6). Ricin pretreatment significantly depressed calcium uptake into microsomes (mean +/- SEM, mumol/g protein) (control: 9.9 +/- 1.9; ricin: 3.1 +/- 1.9, p = 0.025, n = 6). Calcium uptake into mitochondria was increased at the beginning (2 minutes, p = 0.048), but not thereafter. Thus, administration of ricin disturbed calcium homeostasis in the rabbit heart, which may be at least partially responsible for altering cardiac function and myocardial cell death.
"Effects of ricin on the ability of rabbit arteries to contract and relax."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7745223
Ricin, a toxic lectin from castor beans, reduces blood pressure. The current studies determined the effect of ricin on contractions in response to norepinephrine (NE) of rabbit central ear artery, endothelium-dependent relaxations to methacholine and ATP of aorta rings and endothelium-independent relaxations to papaverine in central ear artery and aorta rings. Rabbits were given 0.11 or 0.22 micrograms kg-1 ricin i.v. and 18 h, 4 days, or 7 days later the arteries were removed and tested. Maximal contractions to NE were increased by 8-23% (P > 0.05) with ricin treatment. The EC50 was increased in five of six ricin-treated groups, although only significantly so at 18 h after a minimum lethal dose of ricin. Maximum relaxations to methacholine were increased by 20-57% (P > 0.05) at 18 h following both ricin doses but returned to control values at later time points. Relaxations in response to ATP were significantly enhanced in all ricin-treated groups (95-205%) except in the 18 h and 4-day 0.11 microgram kg-1 dose groups where the increase was 0-46%. Relaxations in response to papaverine were not altered in either artery. Thus, ricin decreases the sensitivity of the rabbit central ear artery to NE and increases endothelial-dependent relaxations of the rabbit aorta. Therefore, decreased blood pressure following ricin administration may be due to vasodilation caused by decreased vascular contractions and increased endothelial-dependent vascular relaxation.
"Effects of ricin administration to rabbits on the ability of their coronary arteries to contract and relax in vitro."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7974490
We have previously shown that ricin, a toxic lectin from the castor bean, increases cardiac output and blood flow to the heart in rabbits in the early stage of its intoxication and causes hemorrhage and necrosis in the heart following a lethal dose. To investigate possible alterations in coronary arteries following ricin administration, their responses to serotonin (5-HT), histamine, norepinephrine (NE), and acetylcholine (ACh) were determined. Rabbits were given 0.22 microgram/kg of ricin i.v. and euthanized 48 hr later. Cumulative contractions of rabbit coronary artery rings to 5-HT and histamine were measured. Cumulative relaxations to ACh and NE were measured in rings contracted with the histamine H1 receptor agonist 2-(2-aminoethyl)pyridine. Ricin significantly increased the EC50s of contractions of rabbit coronary artery rings to 5-HT and histamine. Maximal contractions to most agonists tested were increased. The EC50 of relaxation of rabbit coronary artery to NE was decreased, although the maximal relaxations to ACh and NE were not increased to a significant extent. It is likely that in the early stage of ricin intoxication in rabbits the sum of the effects of these vasoactive agents is to reduce the vascular tone of the coronary artery and thus reduce blood pressure and, in the late stage of ricin intoxication, vasospasm of coronary artery may cause micro- and macrocirculatory collapse.
"Ricin exposure by ingestion (swallowing) typically results in symptoms in less than six hours following exposure. Symptoms include vomiting and diarrhea that may contain blood, possibly resulting in dehydration severe enough to cause low blood pressure, and blood in the urine. Ricin ingestion can also cause disturbances in the central nervous system, potentially leading to hallucinations or seizures. Within several days, multi-organ failure can result.
Depending on the degree of exposure, death can result within 36 to 72 hours from both inhalation and ingestion of ricin. "
this is all i could find for ingestion and syptoms that wasnt just all about eating castor beans >.<
and all my searching for ricin poisoning that ISNT about castor plant/beans..... nothing... so far.<br /><br />__________ Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:27 pm __________<br /><br />ok i found some stuff with ricin and rabbit.... but i dont understand most of it. not sure if it is helpful or not....
"The cardiovascular effects of ricin in rabbits."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8008720
"Ricin is a toxic lectin from the castor bean. The time course of its toxic effects on the cardiovascular system of rabbits was investigated after determining its LD50 and minimum lethal dose in rabbits by the Up and Down method, as a basis for dosing. Systolic and diastolic arterial pressures, electrocardiogram and heart rate were recorded for 48 hr following administration of either a toxic sublethal (0.22 microgram/kg) or minimum lethal dose (0.44 microgram/kg) of ricin. After a delayed onset of about 20 hr, the minimum lethal dose (0.44 microgram/kg) of ricin caused a significant decrease in both systolic and diastolic pressures (P < 0.05). The systolic and diastolic pressures decreased 0.47 and 0.39 mmHg/hr more so than control groups, respectively. A toxic sublethal dose (0.22 microgram/kg) of ricin did not significantly alter either systolic or diastolic pressure. Neither dose of ricin caused cardiac arrhythmias or significantly increased heart rate. We conclude that the lethal hypotensive sequelae of ricin toxicity in the rabbit were peripheral in origin and not cardiogenic at these two doses."
"Ricin disturbs calcium homeostasis in the rabbit heart."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8934635
Ricin, a toxic lectin from the castor bean, affects the cardiovascular system. Because calcium is very important in cardiotoxicity and cell intoxication, we studied the effects of ricin pretreatment to rabbits on basal intracellular calcium levels and calcium uptake and release from isolated papillary muscle, microsomes, and mitochondria. An increase in basal intracellular calcium levels was observed. Ricin pretreatment nearly doubled the intracellular-free Ca2+ concentration as measured by fura-2 fluorescence microscopy in isolated myocytes (p = 0.002). Ricin did not alter basal calcium efflux in isolated papillary muscles. However, ricin inhibited the NE-induced calcium efflux (expressed as fractional efflux ratios) in papillary muscles from rabbits receiving the minimum lethal dose of ricin at 25-35 minutes (p = 0.002 and 0.003, respectively). Ricin depressed basal calcium uptake into isolated papillary muscles at 5 minutes (mean +/- SEM, mumol/g wet weight) (control: 3.68 +/- 0.57; ricin: 2.31 +/- 0.28, p = 0.045, n = 6). Ricin pretreatment significantly depressed calcium uptake into microsomes (mean +/- SEM, mumol/g protein) (control: 9.9 +/- 1.9; ricin: 3.1 +/- 1.9, p = 0.025, n = 6). Calcium uptake into mitochondria was increased at the beginning (2 minutes, p = 0.048), but not thereafter. Thus, administration of ricin disturbed calcium homeostasis in the rabbit heart, which may be at least partially responsible for altering cardiac function and myocardial cell death.
"Effects of ricin on the ability of rabbit arteries to contract and relax."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7745223
Ricin, a toxic lectin from castor beans, reduces blood pressure. The current studies determined the effect of ricin on contractions in response to norepinephrine (NE) of rabbit central ear artery, endothelium-dependent relaxations to methacholine and ATP of aorta rings and endothelium-independent relaxations to papaverine in central ear artery and aorta rings. Rabbits were given 0.11 or 0.22 micrograms kg-1 ricin i.v. and 18 h, 4 days, or 7 days later the arteries were removed and tested. Maximal contractions to NE were increased by 8-23% (P > 0.05) with ricin treatment. The EC50 was increased in five of six ricin-treated groups, although only significantly so at 18 h after a minimum lethal dose of ricin. Maximum relaxations to methacholine were increased by 20-57% (P > 0.05) at 18 h following both ricin doses but returned to control values at later time points. Relaxations in response to ATP were significantly enhanced in all ricin-treated groups (95-205%) except in the 18 h and 4-day 0.11 microgram kg-1 dose groups where the increase was 0-46%. Relaxations in response to papaverine were not altered in either artery. Thus, ricin decreases the sensitivity of the rabbit central ear artery to NE and increases endothelial-dependent relaxations of the rabbit aorta. Therefore, decreased blood pressure following ricin administration may be due to vasodilation caused by decreased vascular contractions and increased endothelial-dependent vascular relaxation.
"Effects of ricin administration to rabbits on the ability of their coronary arteries to contract and relax in vitro."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7974490
We have previously shown that ricin, a toxic lectin from the castor bean, increases cardiac output and blood flow to the heart in rabbits in the early stage of its intoxication and causes hemorrhage and necrosis in the heart following a lethal dose. To investigate possible alterations in coronary arteries following ricin administration, their responses to serotonin (5-HT), histamine, norepinephrine (NE), and acetylcholine (ACh) were determined. Rabbits were given 0.22 microgram/kg of ricin i.v. and euthanized 48 hr later. Cumulative contractions of rabbit coronary artery rings to 5-HT and histamine were measured. Cumulative relaxations to ACh and NE were measured in rings contracted with the histamine H1 receptor agonist 2-(2-aminoethyl)pyridine. Ricin significantly increased the EC50s of contractions of rabbit coronary artery rings to 5-HT and histamine. Maximal contractions to most agonists tested were increased. The EC50 of relaxation of rabbit coronary artery to NE was decreased, although the maximal relaxations to ACh and NE were not increased to a significant extent. It is likely that in the early stage of ricin intoxication in rabbits the sum of the effects of these vasoactive agents is to reduce the vascular tone of the coronary artery and thus reduce blood pressure and, in the late stage of ricin intoxication, vasospasm of coronary artery may cause micro- and macrocirculatory collapse.
