ANOTHER MYSTERY DEATH!!! HELP PLEASE!!!

[ohiogoatgirl]

i just got this NZW white doe about a week ago.
today i go out and she is layin on her side. barely any body temp (its snowin here, so its cold but not extremely cold). her eyes were half open and she wouldnt open or close them on her own, even if i blew air across her eye. her stomach is bloated some. she has hard somethin below her stomache goin down to her crotch, i'm guessing backed up intestines?

i couldnt feel a heartbeat but she was taking small "gasping" breaths, enough that i could barely feel her lungs expand. and her feet would twitch a tiny bit every couple minutes.

just as i was typing this she has stopped taking breaths alltogether.
this is the third rabbit i've lost mysteeriously, all similar deaths.
fine one day, then the naxt they dont eat a thing and are dead when i go out to feed. or taking their last breaths.

first one was a young chocolate dutch buck, about 12wks. i think i posted about that here. he was doing the gasping too. but that was in warmer weather so i couldnt tell a lower body temp or not. but he died around the same time. though he had a seizure fit for a few seconds and then was gone.

the second one happened while i was gone for christmas at my fiances house, out of state. she died in the night sometime and when my family went out to care for them she was dead and frozen stiff because it was really cold. she had a litter of 6 that were about 4wks old and thankfully mine seem to all wean by then anyhow. the litter is all fine and healthy.

and this is the third one...

if anyone could help i would be very grateful!
gonna do an autopsy in a bit. have to wash up good and finish chores now.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Sorry, OGG! What a run of bad luck.

I'm not sure what is going on, but take lots of pics of the necropsy and hopefully someone will see some signs of the cause.

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

thanks MSD... i'm going to because i have no clue...

oh and i almost forgot, i had 2 FG does that i traded off because they were eating too much and refusing to breed to any bucks i had. soon after i got back from christmas the lady i traded em with messaged me and said they died mysteriously in the night too! just went out to feed and there they laid dead for no apparent reason.

 

[Happy]

What are you feeding them? That sounds like a couple of natural poisons. It also sounds like some mycotoxins, so check for mold and fungi.

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

i've been on 3 different feeds. different one for each death.

first i was on one since i had started with rabbits and was having problems with no does lifting or taking. so i switched to a feed from a local store that my neighbor uses fine. well that guy just went out of business so just day before yesterday i got a different feed and started switching over. all the rabbits seem to like it.

i make my own hay. i dont fee out any that looks moldy at all. my rabbits, goats, and guinea pigs all get the same hay. i've had no problems with the other animals. we've had goats for about 10 years and always made our own hay.

 

[Happy]

Check their area for mold, but that's all I can personally think of. It sounds a lot like paralytic poisons. What you're describing is a lot like the description given of Socrates' death from hemlock.

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

i'm gonna look up what hemlock looks like. but i just asked my dad and he said he is pretty sure we dont have hardly any, if any. and certianly wouldnt be in a bale.

just had a thought though.... right at the same time i lost the first one i had my goat buckling die. i thought it was meningeal worm. a worm we have up north that deer get. they dont hurt deer but in goats the worms seem to get lost and after hatching in the goat instead of just wiggling through the body and popping out, they can get lost and go through the spinal cord. paralyzing the goat. the goat will act perfectly fine and eat fine. just not be able to walk. paralyzation slowly spreading.

would this be similar effects of hemlock on a goat? i never did an autopsy on him.

 

[MaggieJ]

I can't see a pattern yet, OGG... but if the deaths are related perhaps one will emerge. When you do the necropsy, look particularly for any indication of a blockage.

Were you able to do a necropsy on either of the others?

Here's some information about poisonous hemlock.

http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/projects/poiso ... ppoiso.htm
http://museum.gov.ns.ca/poison/?section=species&id=78

If these deaths - rabbits and goat - are still a mystery in the spring, I would walk the hayfields and look for signs of this plant. It is very toxic.

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

well crapnuggets... its a queen annes lace look alike. and i know there is plenty of that in my bales.

isnt poison hemlock a wet land plant? because we have some wet land but its not able to be driven across with a tractor. and definitely not able to make hay from.

 

[Frecs]

Not wetland necessarily...just moist soil --

"Poison hemlock grows on fertile, moist soils across the United States in locations such as woodlots, fencerows and waste areas."

This site on Ohio specifically states: "Poison hemlock typically grows in pastures, roadsides, d..." http://www.oardc.ohio-state.edu/weedgui ... asp?id=550

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

*sigh* well not a whole lot i can do about this right now. just make sure i search for it in the hay feilds this year before we cut hay.
but i dont think i ever noticed it. i mean the leaves of QAL is more feathery then the pics of the hemlock. and it doesnt have the red dot in the flower. and our QAL flowers get fairly big. those flowers are small and i can see the difference between that flower and a QAL flower.
says "Flowers are small (1/12 to 1/6 inch across) and have 5 white petals. They form in terminal, umbrella-shaped clusters that are between 1 to 3 inches in diameter" i am pretty sure ours are usually at least that big, usually bigger. like palm size and larger.

 

[Mary Ann's Rabbitry]

What are you feeding them? That sounds like a couple of natural poisons. It also sounds like some mycotoxins, so check for mold and fungi.

I was thinking of the same thing.. .. I would switch to grains instead of pellets.

 

[Frecs]

And the other thing is they say it tastes bad so an animal would have to be pretty hungry to eat enough to harm it. Of course, for a rabbit "enough" isn't as much as for a cow but still...I wonder if a rabbit would even eat it? I think it would have to be on the suspect list but with a big ? in front of it.<br /><br />__________ Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:58 pm __________<br /><br />Just today on a FB list a guy had a rabbit die with very similar symptoms. Someone it might be some type of parasite that can be transmitted via feed.

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

i free feed hay (we cut our own hay) and they are rarely without hay. and moms with litters are free fed feed as well.

what i dont understand is even if its hemlock or a fungus,etc why wouldnt the babies have died? the second rabbit i lost had a litter of babies. they were about 4wks old when she died. they were eating lots of hay and feed. they are all fine. if it was something in the food or hay wouldnt the babies be the first to go? with smaller bodies they wouldnt have to eat as much to get poisoned.

 

[Happy]

You would think that the babies would die first, but infant metabolisms are weird. Many infant animals can metabolize toxins (specific toxins, depending on the individual breed) that an adult would succumb to fairly quickly. Infants of all types also have sensitive taste buds and might spit out the bitter hemlock rather than eat it, while the adult might not taste it mixed in with sweet grass.

 

[MaggieJ]

OGG, it sounds as though you have a good grasp of plant characteristics. I find the easiest way to confirm QAL from look-alikes is the smell of the bruised foliage. QAL is definitely carroty... the others are not. Not saying poisonous hemlock is the cause of your rabbit losses... but I think you should investigate your pastures come fresh growth in the spring.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

It could be a cumulative poison. It will be interesting to see what the liver looks like.

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

eeewwwwww.... well i dont have to know anything about anything to know this isnt right....

first off she is harder then anything to skin. so somethin is wrong there. her water bottle was always empty. i didnt think anything of it cause some drink alot and some dont and the bottles leak some. gonna watch all the rabbits for dehydration. how to check live buns for that?

secondly soon as i started skinning i could smell something... i dont really know what else to say about it cause i'm doing this in the tub. all my butchers have been outside with fresh air. so i'm not sure if this is normal or not. doesnt smell right though. just an instinct feeling there.

this is where the hardness is, between my fingers. its below the stomache.

and here is the really gross part... look at the stomache. it looks like a balloon with mold inside...

<br /><br />__________ Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:27 pm __________<br /><br />and the intestines have air in them. the stomache is like a balloon only half full with contents.

 

[Mary Ann's Rabbitry]

That is full of air... How long is that rabbit dead for.. they do that if they are sitting to long. You have to open it right up. Have to see the rest of it. Liver,ect.
Do you see any loose poop in there cage .. and they sitting in the corner at all before they die. I dont think it is worms

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

liver looks clean so far. pics in a minute.

its only been dead like 2hr. i had to finish feedin the animals and dad is puttin in a wood stove so had to help him a bit.