my homeschooled kid

[Susie570]

Apparently, most gifted learners do have "gifted" parents, so their parents tend not to think that their child's behavior is at all special. (This was news for me, but I did recently discover my husband's grandfather made his living working on rocket engines.. So I guess they do have some good stuff in the bloodlines )

What I'm saying is that, according to them, it's not even a surprise that the PARENTS of gifted students remember being miserable and struggling in a typical school setting, as they were never hardwired for it to begin with. Keeping their children out in that context is basically just reflexively protecting them from what they already KNOW can be devastating to a sensitive and highly intelligent mind.
(Don't all children have these? That is where I get confused.)

I was never officially labeled as gifted in school... I did poorly because I was miserable. But yeah, basically nail-on-head.

 

[michaels4gardens]

That's interesting info to have... not that I consider my son particularly 'gifted', I think most kids would fall into that category when given the advantage of free learning at home, but I think that would still cause him to be pretty unhappy in a public school environment if he were thrust into one.

Apparently, most gifted learners do have "gifted" parents, so their parents tend not to think that their child's behavior is at all special. (This was news for me, but I did recently discover my husband's grandfather made his living working on rocket engines.. So I guess they do have some good stuff in the bloodlines )

What I'm saying is that, according to them, it's not even a surprise that the PARENTS of gifted students remember being miserable and struggling in a typical school setting, as they were never hardwired for it to begin with. Keeping their children out in that context is basically just reflexively protecting them from what they already KNOW can be devastating to a sensitive and highly intelligent mind.
(Don't all children have these? That is where I get confused.)

School was horrible for me, by 2nd grade the teacher had decided I was too retarded to be in public school and wanted me moved to a class for kids who were below the intellectual parameters for public education,, -my mom disagreed with them,- so I was tested, it turns out I was not too stupid, I was too bored to stand it. - the principal told me I would have to start reading and participate in class-- I said it just too stupid, who cares about stupid little stories about Dick and Jane-- the principal told me I would have to learn to read, -- I told her I could read, so she asked me to wait while she got a book so i could show her, -- I said-- whats wrong with the books on your desk, - she told me they were too advanced for my grade, -- I said that grade stuff is all BS,- so she handed me one of her books and I read it to her-- she said-- "now we have more problems then I imagined, what am I going to do with you?"

 

[Susie570]

I said-- whats wrong with the books on your desk, - she told me they were too advanced for my grade, -- I said that grade stuff is all BS,- so she handed me one of her books and I read it to her-- she said-- "now we have more problems then I imagined, what am I going to do with you?"

:lol: :clap2:

 

[coyotejoe]

Thank You MSD, I copied your whole reply to forward to a friend who is home schooling his 10 year old daughter.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I was never officially labeled as gifted in school

I was. It always embarrasses me to say so, because it sounds like bragging.

Turns out, such children tend to NOT thrive when confined to groups of age peers, mostly because they are frequently at a different emotional age than their peers.

I must have been about six at the time, when we went to the beach with a group of other moms and kids. I remember talking to the adults and then sitting nearby digging in the sand while the other kids were off doing whatever it was that they were doing. One of the moms made a comment to my mom about how strange it was that I liked to talk to adults and was content to be off by myself. She was kind of snide about it. :?

Apparently, most gifted learners do have "gifted" parents, so their parents tend not to think that their child's behavior is at all special.

I can relate to that. Everyone that meets FirstPup says he is a genius, and I just think he's a smart guy. :roll: They think the other two are amazing too, but I guess FirstPup (being the eldest and therefore having more knowledge) gives people that impression.

As for this whole ADHD diagnosis, and drugging kids... anybody know some of the behaviors listed as diagnostic? Hmmm?

Allow me to enlighten you...

From The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders the standard reference source published by the APA (American Psychiatric Association) that describes various mental diseases, lists these as possible behavior patterns of ADHD:

If a child is easily distracted, makes careless mistakes, doesn't pay attention to the teacher, doesn't like to follow instructions carefully, frequently loses or forgets things, is restless, fidgets his hands or feet, squirms, runs around, climbs things, leaves a seat when not supposed to, blurts out answers before the teacher asks the whole question, and doesn't like waiting in line because he is impatient.

Sounds like what any bored and energetic kid would do when bored and frustrated, doesn't it? So, basically, all of us probably fall into the ADHD spectrum.

Again, an excerpt from Public Schools, Public Menace:

Many reputable authorities deny that ADHD even exists. According to Breggin,

There are no objective diagnostic criteria for ADHD- no physical symptoms, no neurological signs, and no blood tests. ADHD and Ritalin are American and Canadian medical fads. The U.S. uses 90% of the world's Ritalin... there is no solid evidence that ADHD is a genuine disorder of any kind... there is no proof of any abnormalities in the brains or bodies of children who are routinely labeled ADHD.

And from William Carey, a professor of Pediatrics at the University of Pennsylvania:

The behaviors associated with the ADHD diagnosis reflect a continuum or spectrum of normal temperaments rather than a disorder. He declared that ADHD "appears to be a set of normal behavioral variations" that lead to "dissonant environmental interactions." That is, when the varied but normal temperaments of children bring them into conflict with parents and teachers, the adults try to end the conflicts by diagnosing the children with ADHD.

Thank You MSD, I copied your whole reply to forward to a friend who is home schooling his 10 year old daughter.

Well, thank you for believing it merits that!

If they liked that, you might also want to share the essay by John Taylor Gatto that I posted in a thread of its' own:

essay-worth-reading-for-those-considering-home-schooling-t24433.html

 

[Zass]

School was horrible for me, by 2nd grade the teacher had decided I was too retarded to be in public school and wanted me moved to a class for kids who were below the intellectual parameters for public education,, -my mom disagreed with them,- so I was tested, it turns out I was not too stupid, I was too bored to stand it. - the principal told me I would have to start reading and participate in class-- I said it just too stupid, who cares about stupid little stories about Dick and Jane-- the principal told me I would have to learn to read, -- I told her I could read, so she asked me to wait while she got a book so i could show her, -- I said-- whats wrong with the books on your desk, - she told me they were too advanced for my grade, -- I said that grade stuff is all BS,- so she handed me one of her books and I read it to her-- she said-- "now we have more problems then I imagined, what am I going to do with you?"

I couldn't even imagine sending my son to a public school. :shock:
He's...something else. Even I can recognize that. I've never encountered a mind quite like his before. The ex-school teacher who comes to test him tells me the same thing. She claimed that in ten years of teaching kindergarten in a regular public school, she'd never met another student like him. (The woman actually called him a genius...I'm his mother, and I wouldn't go that far, but I can see where someone who is only accustomed to teaching at public school kindergarten level might be shocked.)

I also seriously doubt that such students didn't exist. :angry: They probably just had never been given freedom to develop and express themselves.

But I also I don't think anyone's ever seen the extent of my son's abilities either. I know I haven't.

He can test at a very high level (with sufficient motivation), but it's plain to people speaking with him or observing him closely that his ability level is much higher than anything that has ever been asked of him.

He still acts out, like any little boy.

He challenges the rules constantly, unless he understands exactly WHY it's important to follow them. He's viewed as "spoiled" by my extended family, who much prefer children to be quiet and "well behaved" instead of headstrong and questioning.

Still, all it takes is EXPLAINING things to him directly, not just what you want from him, but WHY. If it makes sense, he'll do it (or refrain from it.)
It's just that one must treat him as person and not as a "child," because his mind is quite obviously equal to an adult's mind in some areas.

He's not at all difficult for me, as he is a good natured person, and has a kind way with the animals. I don't think there is a drop of meanness in him. (Yeah, he's a momma's boy.)


What I'm trying to say, is that he would not thrive in a public school.

As things stand, his teacher has gotten in trouble with the cyber school because she was testing his reading at a 7th grade level instead of a kindergarten level. (7th grade? Seriously if she wanted to challenge him at all, she'd need to bring 12th grade material. Even then...I'm not sure that would slow him down.)

 

[JenerationX]

I had issues in school. I was doing horribly, not doing homework, not wanting to read Dick and Jane and their dumb dog Spot, etc. etc. etc. The school sent me off for testing so they could put me in with the "slow learners" class. I was tested for 2 days straight and at the end of that, pulled out of class to participate in "Project Challenge" and "Olympia of the Mind".... turned out my IQ was higher than the teacher's and I was bored out of my mind. I went to a private school for 2 years in high school that I actually didn't mind, but the rest of my schooling was absolute torture for me. Someone would figure out I was smart, and then I'd inevitably get picked on for it.... I tried to hide it, bombed a few test questions on purpose, etc. I think for those people that truly want to learn.... they're far better off not having their lessons misguided by the public school system.

 

[the reluctant farmer]

True giftedness and ADHD can outwardly look similar (difficulty sitting still, calling out answers, failure to pay attention, among just a few) and can be confused. A child can also be gifted and have ADHD, which is called Twice Exceptional (2e). That is a unique challenge onto itself-- a child who has unique thoughts and interests, but may lack the executive abilities to follow through or is so scattered they can't remember where they left off. The two can work against each other at times.

Giftedness can be very challenging for a child. They may intuit they are different but not know why and might have a tough time relating to other kids. Also, a number of children who are called "gifted" in our school systems are merely brighter than the average bear, and often very good at organizing information, memorizing, and demonstrating. They possess strong skills in succeeding at school, not necessarily intellectual giftedness. That can change expectations in what the title means, and leave your Einsteins and Edisons to be viewed as oddballs--and nowadays they don't get the chance to rise to their potwntial. The organized students, for lack of better title, aretold they are smarter than others because of their behavior and it reinforces that belief within themselves (who doesn't want to believe they have unique abilities?), and they deliver as such. Children who are truly highly gifted may have a very difficult time in school--they tend to be a little less emotionally mature and can come across as "weird" to other kids because of their interests and how they relate. They may be seen as either unmotivated or undisciplined (or troublemakers) by their teachers because of their intense focus on what THEY want to learn, not necessarily what they are TOLD to learn (again, similar to ADHD & hyperfocus) or because they appear bored (ADHD) and/or question (challenge) what is taught (hello, ADHD?). Being told they don't fit can likewise reinforce the belief that they're "bad" at school, and they start to perform to the expectation.

Both groups (gifted & ADHD) seem to have a higher than average amount of learning disabilities like dyslexia, processing issues or other disorders(ocd, anxiety, etc). (Will need to find my source for that. ). It complicates either condition and once again leads to misdiagnoses. Many times the gifted kids are able to mask learning disabilities to the point that others don't recognize it's an issue because they appear to be functioning in the average range (but it may be levels below what they are capable of.). Giftedness, especially at the Highly Gifted level, can be isolating because there are so few people who think on that level, so the person has very few people who are peers or can fully relate.

Homeschooling is great for children who are gifted because they can soar ahead as needed, and work more slowly in areas that need it. Kids with ADHD can also thrive with homeschooling because the school atmosphere puts them in their weak spots and doesn't reward their strengths--or their hard work in a meaningful way.

I think ADHD does exist, and I also think it is overdiagnosed. I think it is more apparent now because we evolved from being an agrarian society and an active society to one that spends most of its time indoors. The political meddling and hot mess passed off as education reform over the past 20+ years have also contributed. Recess is reduced, hands-on projects, reduced, art, music, and even Phy Ed are reduced, paperwork, lectures, and homework--increased. Kids who the teacher would have been able to work with and make adaptations for now are labeled and seen as a problem because there are piles of paperwork and meaningless standards that leave no time to teach! So the meds are prescribed as a way of making the kids become "one of us, one of us, gooble gobble gooble gobble" instead of reserved for people who absolutely need it. My state still leads the nation in ADHD diagnosis, I believe. It also leads the nation in meds being used to treat ADHD in children. And we have also held the dubious distinction of being in the bottom three states for test scores for the past...16 years? 18 years? Us parents aren't even aware our kids are being used as playing pieces in a really messed-up game....

And that is the farmer's 2 cents--and more info than anyone wanted to know or asked for on the topic of giftedness and ADHD.

 

[Susie570]

It feels great to have all of you homeschool friendly, and savvy, folks here. I was hesitant to make this post for fear of being raked over the coals for choosing to homeschool. I'm truly proud to be part of this group!!

 

[Zass]

This webpage is pretty close to what the school was teaching us, and shows that modern thought process IS catching up a bit...

http://www.bertiekingore.com/high-gt-create.htm

Unfortunately, even with the more flexible definitions, an average teacher has a very hard time wrapping their mind around how the gifted learner and creative thinker types are processing information. At least, in the case of the advanced learning program in the cyber school, the educators kinda get it, but they still CAN NOT TEACH for it. Instead of moving the children into totally new areas at THEIR pace, they continuously attempt to simply move through material only one or two grade levels higher.


If I was one of the three, I'd probably fall into the creative thinking category. Lots of ideas, with very little follow-through. :lol:

__________ Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:34 pm __________

Oh, and this is a fun little article:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 1419,d.eXY

My favorite quote probably being:

An unusual mind coupled with unusual emotions leads to unusual life experiences throughout the life cycle.

This is interesting to:

There is still another form of asynchrony that needs to be mentioned: the condition of dual exceptionality. The most asynchronous child is one who is both highly gifted and learning disabled. A remarkable number of gifted children have either recognized or undetected learning disabilities, such as auditory processing weaknesses (Silverman, 1989), writing disabilities (Silverman, 1991), visual perception difficulties, spatial disorientation, dyslexia, and attentional deficits (Lovecky, 1991). Giftedness masks disabilities and disabilities depress IQ scores, so that the child appears average (Silverman, 1989). The subtest scatter of gifted children with learning disabilities clearly demonstrates their asynchrony. The greater the developmental asynchrony, the greater the strength of the overexcitabilities. Highly gifted children with learning disabilities tend to be extremely overexcitable.

 

[michaels4gardens]

I had issues in school. I was doing horribly, not doing homework, not wanting to read Dick and Jane and their dumb dog Spot, etc. etc. etc. The school sent me off for testing so they could put me in with the "slow learners" class. I was tested for 2 days straight and at the end of that, pulled out of class to participate in "Project Challenge" and "Olympia of the Mind".... turned out my IQ was higher than the teacher's and I was bored out of my mind. I went to a private school for 2 years in high school that I actually didn't mind, but the rest of my schooling was absolute torture for me. Someone would figure out I was smart, and then I'd inevitably get picked on for it.... I tried to hide it, bombed a few test questions on purpose, etc. I think for those people that truly want to learn.... they're far better off not having their lessons misguided by the public school system.

My favorite part of school was , they put my IQ in my school records, so whenever I missed a question or did not want to play their stupid games, the teachers would say rude things to me about not trying , or applying myself. --Or if I disagreed with their opinions, they would say,-surely someone of your intelligence can understand that my point of view is the correct one.
--and somehow they believed that being smart would automatically make me interested in the crap they were teaching me...

 

[the reluctant farmer]

This webpage is pretty close to what the school was teaching us, and shows that modern thought process IS catching up a bit...

http://www.bertiekingore.com/high-gt-create.htm

This is great, Zass-thanks so much!

Love this, too:

An unusual mind coupled with unusual emotions leads to unusual life experiences throughout the life cycle.

It may become my calling card.

I find it all fascinating how so many elements come in to play with learning, and how amazing and complicated these bodies we inhabit are. It's frustating that we're not quite to where we can make full use of people's gifts and creative abilities. Maybe in our grandchildren's time...?

 

[Susie570]

Interesting link! According to the chart, my son falls under both 'gifted learner' and 'creative thinker'. It's great and all, but challenging!

 

[JenerationX]

My favorite part of school was , they put my IQ in my school records, so whenever I missed a question or did not want to play their stupid games, the teachers would say rude things to me about not trying , or applying myself. --Or if I disagreed with their opinions, they would say,-surely someone of your intelligence can understand that my point of view is the correct one.
--and somehow they believed that being smart would automatically make me interested in the crap they were teaching me...

Amen!!!! :evil: :evil: :evil:

I wasn't applying myself every single time I didn't want to play the game. I was rebellious because the "hard boiled egg is now your baby and you have to take care of it 24/7 for a week" test ended up with my egg being replaced multiple times. "You have to pretend it's an infant".... I told them it was a dead embryonic chicken that was hard boiled and I was a 13 year old that skied and rode horses so unless the egg could stay in my locker overnight rather than my jacket pocket... they could expect a very smelly week. I got sent home for the day. My mother called the school and advised them that my "baby" would not be attending middle school as an infant, it would be home with her babysitting it and they could call daily for updates.

Interesting link! According to the chart, my son falls under both 'gifted learner' and 'creative thinker'. It's great and all, but challenging!

That's close to me... although just shy of the ADHD creative. Challenging is the right word. You're reading or hearing some information and have 5,000 questions and want to get them all out at once. Some of them are only half formed though. "Wait, you just said this but what about when this and that and that and ohhh what about........?" You want to explore the tangents while the rest of the class is still stuck on the first thing.

 

[Susie570]

My mother called the school and advised them that my "baby" would not be attending middle school as an infant, it would be home with her babysitting it and they could call daily for updates.

:lol: :lol: that's brilliant!! Also far more 'realistic' to what actually does happen these days when kids have babies. :roll:

My life would have been so much better if I had been homrschooled (all other things being equal).

Btw... In addtion to all of this other interesting kid stuff... Anyone else have a kid who spins in circles when you try to have a serious conversation with them?? Wth... I would be so dizzy. I don't know how he does it.

 

[michaels4gardens]

I find "being smart" a burden [often a terrible burden], most people do not see the terrible injustice, cruelty, and inequality of the world at all, much less see it as a small child , having parents provide an environment that will shield you from some of that while showing you some of the wonderful , beautiful , loving things, will help find balance and allow time to develop coping skills. Public school is a cruel harsh reality for a young person who can comprehend very many things outside of themselves and their personal wants, and needs. People who are sensitive to this nastiness, can become "broken" before they can escape from this forced over exposure, and explore the world on their own terms. Parents of "gifted children" should be careful to not force the young to see all the evil of this world before they are ready, -- and never lie to the child,for any reason, [but especially about religion or fairy tails like Santa Claws]- they will somehow know something is wrong with this, it will be like a splinter in their mind, aggravating them until they solve the riddle.-- and when they discover that you have lied, you will never be able to give them advise , or have their trust again.

 

[cmfarm]

Very interesting discussion. I guess I am one of the odd men out, I do send my kids to school, but our school is different than most public schools. It is very small (average class size is 15 per class with only 1 class for each grade) and is very rural. The town it sits in has less than 100 people. My daughter has several learning disabilities and they make sure that every year she has a teacher that is trained in special education.
Before my kids started school I did consider home schooling them, but I am really bad at explaining things and would make a horrible teacher. I know several families who homeschool and have really smart, well educated kids. If it came down to it and I felt they were not getting a proper education, I would try something different (maybe cyber school or something like that).
I do agree that schools in the US have really been going down hill. In Austin they have actually been shutting down a lot of the schools for poor state testing scores and many charter schools have been popping up. Maybe it is the beginning of change.
When I went to school (86-2001) I hated it. I had to repeat kindergarten. I still remember that I was really bored and would get in trouble a lot because of it. My second year we moved from Texas to California (we lived there for about 2.5 years) and the class was a lot different, very hands on opposed to sitting down and doing worksheets. When we moved back to Texas I never seemed to fit in and was bullied a lot until we moved to smaller town and it was like night and day. The kids where all very friendly and the teachers seemed to care a lot more.
I have to disagree that ADHD doesn't exist. There have been studies that show that people with it have brains that are different. Saying everyone could be diagnosed with ADHD because they show symptoms of it from time to time is like saying everyone could be diagnosed with every mental illness out there because we all show symptoms of them from time to time. It has to do with the severity of the symptoms, how frequently they occur and how they impact a persons ability to function. It probably does get over diagnosed though, as well as overmedicated.

 

[Susie570]

I find "being smart" a burden [often a terrible burden], most people do not see the terrible injustice, cruelty, and inequality of the world at all, much less see it as a small child

Tell me about it. I was miserable in school, even more so when I got to High School. I truly thought there was something wrong with me. It made it even worse that, not only was I in public school, I was in a backward, super conservative, dogmatic area where many kids didn't even bother to finish school, much less care about education. In my last couple of years of school, I did manage to get 'in' with the brighter, weird kids in the school and it probably saved my life.

never lie to the child,for any reason, [but especially about religion or fairy tails like Santa Claws]- they will somehow know something is wrong with this, it will be like a splinter in their mind, aggravating them until they solve the riddle.-- and when they discover that you have lied, you will never be able to give them advise , or have their trust again.

Probably one of the least terrible things my mom did to me was lie about such things as 'santa claus', but I will never forget when I was about 5 years old, looking her square in the eye and asking her to tell me the truth about 'the easter bunny' and 'santa claus'. She DID finally tell me they weren't real. I felt betrayed that she had lied to me about it, even though I knew it was in the spirit of 'fun'. I do realize this is never an issue for MOST families and kids eventually just 'get it' and never care that their parents told this 'white lie' to create the 'magic of xmas' or whatever... but it was a deep betrayal for ME and taught me that my parents would lie to me.

I have never lied to my son, about anything. As hard as that is sometimes, it's a solid rule (although he does accuse me of lying to him sometimes :roll: just can't win I guess, and he lies to me without flinching). Oh well. <br /><br /> __________ Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:28 am __________ <br /><br />

our school is different than most public schools. It is very small (average class size is 15 per class with only 1 class for each grade) and is very rural. The town it sits in has less than 100 people. My daughter has several learning disabilities and they make sure that every year she has a teacher that is trained in special education.

You're lucky to have a good school. They do exist in some areas

I have to disagree that ADHD doesn't exist. There have been studies that show that people with it have brains that are different. Saying everyone could be diagnosed with ADHD because they show symptoms of it from time to time is like saying everyone could be diagnosed with every mental illness out there because we all show symptoms of them from time to time. It has to do with the severity of the symptoms, how frequently they occur and how they impact a persons ability to function. It probably does get over diagnosed though, as well as overmedicated.

I agree with you. It's a real medical problem, but heavily overdiagnosed. Even in most cases, I would still say it's not good to medicate a child for the problem unless it's SEVERE. Medicating kids allows them to bypass the process of learning coping skills and leaves them handicapped. :/

 

[MamaSheepdog]

There have been studies that show that people with it have brains that are different.

Again, quoting from the same book:

Some medical professionals, mental health professionals, organizations, and government agencies claim that ADHD is a biologically-based and valid mental disease. In November, 1998, the National Institute of Health (NIH) held its NIH Consensus Development conference on "The Diagnosis and Treatment of Attention Deficit and Hyperactivity Disorder". Dr. James Swanson, Ph.D., Professor of Pedatrics at the University of Irvine, Ca. was given the task of proving that there was a biological basis for ADHD. In his presentation, Swanson showed many brain scan slides of children who allegedly had ADHD, and whose brain scans were different from normal children.

Here's what happened next:

...Then a child neurologist in the audience raised a telling point. He noted that psychiatric drugs are very toxic to a child's brain. Then he asked Swanson "How many of the children with brain abnormalities had been previously exposed to psychiatric drugs?" Swanson was forced to admit that all of the children had. Then the devastating follow up question "How could you withhold such vital information from your presentation?" Swanson made no direct reply.

-------------------------------------------------------

Another excerpt:

Let me quote Mr. Blumenfield again on this issue:

There must be something wrong with an education system that requires so many children to be drugged just to attend school.

Last year I spent a week in Beijing, China. During that week I visited a school where I was able to observe about 500 children doing their morning physical exercises in the school yard. I asked my host how many of the children were on Ritalin. He asked what was Ritalin. He had never heard of it. In short, in China they don't have ADD and they don't drug schoolchildren.

Are American children more mentally handicapped than Chinese children? Are they afflicted with a mental disease that is more prevalent in the U.S. than anywhere else on the globe?

 

[Susie570]

That is truly mind blowing, MSD... particularly his observation of Chinese kids. That's just... wow... :shock: