Terrible news - Pasteurella - what to do?

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Thanks MamaSheepDog - and for the reminder to give Vit c - will do right now... I have not done electrolytes, is that good for sick buns? When I've put salt blocks in their cages they have ignored them, and the rain dissolved them away and they corroded my cage wire. I do give pellets so I think they get enough minerals, don't they? Thanks!
 
Stormy":2g4hfbir said:
Thanks MamaSheepDog - and for the reminder to give Vit c - will do right now... I have not done electrolytes, is that good for sick buns? When I've put salt blocks in their cages they have ignored them, and the rain dissolved them away and they corroded my cage wire. I do give pellets so I think they get enough minerals, don't they? Thanks!
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You're welcome. :)

Electrolytes will help balance their systems and will encourage them to drink more. I put my mineral blocks in tuna or catfood cans zip tied to the wire. Sometimes they take them out or chew the zip ties, but it helps to prevent corrosion of the wire when they are actually in the cans. :roll:

Your pellets should provide the minerals they are lacking, but if they are craving something they will self medicate with the blocks.

My rabbits ignore the blocks for the most part also, and I don't feed pellets. I do, however, mix food grade Diatomaceous Earth into my grain mix at the rate of 1/4 cup per 20 lbs, as well as about an 1/8th cup of oyster shell. My normal ratio is 1 cup DE per 100 lbs for my animal feed but I mix my feed in 20lb batches (the bucket I use when weighing ingredients holds 10lbs), so the buns get a bit extra.
 
Also, rather than the white salt blocks (if that is what you had), I would recommend the red mineral block ... and, yes, hanging them is soooooo bad for the wire :evil:

You can also try offering about a teaspoon of some acidopholous yougurt each day to help keep the good gut bacteria going while giving the abx.
 
AnnClaire":3mj721qf said:
You can also try offering about a teaspoon of some acidopholous yougurt each day to help keep the good gut bacteria going while giving the abx.
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Good call, AnnClaire! Some people feel that milk products shouldn't be given to critters, but I gave milk soaked bread to my doe Feather last year when she was losing kits.

I have used probiotic powder (for my horses), fed as a top dressing on oatmeal to my Beveren doe when she had loose stool when I first got her. Bene Bac paste is also helpful.
 
MamaSheepDog, why the oyster shell? That seems odd to feed a rabbit! Do they really need that much calcium?

AnnClaire- I tried red, orange, and green flavored salt licks... along with the red/brown ones... but ok if it'll make them healthier easy enough to add back.

I like the yogurt idea too... I am lax about probiotics though gave them all some Bene-Bac tonight. Its all a bit overwhelming. I've been treating so many of them for months (vent disease) its never ending. Now this. I am trying to figure out whether Bordatella is worth treating or culling for! Some sites saying Bordatella and Pasteurella sometimes go hand in hand... so if its turning up then P might be close behind... That'd eliminate about 10 of my 14 rabbits right now...

My vet said the rabbits immune systems were weakened by being on Penicillin so much for the past few months, they got Bordatella. Some breeders said it made no sense, but it makes sense to me... Antibiotics post surgery really screwed me up, its been a year and a half and I'm still not back to normal. So maybe I should give them the benefit of the doubt here and treat them again.

Now I am looking at my Belgian buck's little abnormal abcess warty bumpy yellowish whitish thingie that doesn't squeeze anything out that we've been treating for like 5 months... the vet said its vent disease (on his genitals)... I wonder if it could be Pasteurella? As for something stubborn that doesn't clear up after 5 rounds of antibiotics!! It shrinks but doesn't disappear. It popped up after he was on Baytril for a respiratory illness (no snot) after running around free roaming on the property last summer.

I feel like I'm in over my eyeballs. Who knew rabbits had so many diseases? When I raised them when I was young, it was just myxamatosis I was on the look out for... although that's as bad as it gets.

I am sooo disappointed. I really wonder if I'm going to have any rabbits at the end of the day. For one I got into raising them to produce healthy, anti-biotic free range grass fed meat. This is a bit of a joke. Anyone else have this hard a time? Of course the fact I have them in colony pens and out on pasture is probably half my problem... although the quarantine area had the rabbits side by side and that was the other half of the problem... there is no winning!

Anyone treat Bordatella, and what did you use? My vet wants to use Baytril, which is damaging to young and unborn kits (I have 4 pregnant does) plus wants to see each and every rabbit (10 x $50 vet visit = $500!! yeah! I'm sure she does! that's not including the Baytril at $30 a pop!) I have LA200 and wondering if that'll work...
 
I am raising rabbits for the same reasons and seem to be having some of the same problems. It does seem so much harder now that it used to be when I was a kid. We had rabbits for the longest time with no problems, along with tons of other farm critters. My starter herd is being a bit of a disappointment. I have a great new rabbit hutch with a grand total of 3 rabbits, 2 of whom are not the meat types I wanted :/ The rest are in various phases of quarantine in other places. I have so many babies I can't even just cull them all and start over. It is discouraging for sure.
 
Sorry to hear you are having similar troubles, Coffeenut. I am wondering if this day and age with rabbits being transported all over the U.S. quite easily with the internet, and the showing hobby making some folks have hundreds of rabbits where things can spread unnoticed, and infecting others on the show tables, if this disease is in fact more rampant than it used to be. I remember "snuffles" being a disease but it seemed fairly uncommon back then. My rabbits - and I had maybe 3-4 different breeds come through, with rabbits getting dumped off on me and catching the occasional stray - and never had it!!
So yes, I have now lots of rabbits spread out in quarantine all over the place :( When I get through this I am not sure if I will bring in new rabbits again and/or show as I had plans to, it'll probably depend on who is left, if any. If my first buddy Belgian Hare has P I will probably roll over and put my legs up in the air.
 
I'm no expert by any stretch, but my understanding is that Pasturella is a respiratory disease, so I don't think it fits the symptoms described on your buck's genitals. Could that possibly be from parasites? :(

I can't even imagine what you're going through, Stormy and Coffeenut. *hugs* I hope it all gets better soon!
 
PistolPackingMomma":2sb5g5cg said:
I'm no expert by any stretch, but my understanding is that Pasturella is a respiratory disease, so I don't think it fits the symptoms described on your buck's genitals. Could that possibly be from parasites? :(

I can't even imagine what you're going through, Stormy and Coffeenut. *hugs* I hope it all gets better soon!
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P. can manifest in many ways....read this for more info: http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index ... 171317.htm
 
Thanks OneAcre- no mention of bumps on genitals, more swollen testes or uterus. *whew* I thought I read somewhere that pasteurella can create bumps and cysts too. My vet did confirm in her research that rabbits can transmit Pasteurella sexually via genitals meaning don't breed an infected rabbit to a non infected one!!

OK I can't help but wonder, my cat has been diagnosed with chronic rhinitis meaning she caught a virus she can't get over so she is always snuffly and sneezy. Could she have pasteurella? No white discharge but she certainly flings snot and breathes noisily. The P word never came up with her, just "oh well, she's one of those cats who couldn't get over her respiratory illness". She's 6, a rescue, and I don't think she ever infected any other rescues that came through my house I think I remember being told she was not contagious. I just wonder if it appears in cats like this.
 
This is what it says regarding "cysts"

Subcutaneous and visceral abscesses caused by Pasteurella may be clinically silent for long periods and spontaneously rupture. When bucks penned together fight, their wounds frequently develop abscesses. With colony rabbits, it is usually advisable to eliminate rather than to treat the affected rabbit; with pet rabbits, drainage of the abscess accompanied by antibiotic therapy based on culture and sensitivity tests has been successful, although recurrence of signs is common.
 
GREAT NEWS!! At least so far no one else has shown up positive for Pasteurella!! The snifflers have Bordatella. I probably culled my Hotot buck over Bordatella... *sniff* *weep* although that guy did have health issues, as previously mentioned, never put on weight, etc. I still feel really bad. I should have isolated him out, stopped his anti-biotics and waited a few weeks to test him.

I'm hoping I caught my one Pasteurella infected bunny before it spread. If the Bordatella symptoms don't clear on their own, according to the UC Vet, to get them tested again for P. So we're still not totally out of danger but I feel much more positive.

Thank you to everyone for your help, and for edifying me so that if this ever happens again I will be better prepared to deal with it. And, I still have 10 rabbits to get well from Bordatella... and I suppose if they can't on their own, they are self-selecting for the stewpot.
 
Awesome Stormy! Better Bordatella than pastuerella ... although, I still think culling the Hotot that was so sickly was still the right call. One way or another, his genetics were not robust and probably not something you wanted to perpetuate.

As for the vet wanting to see each bun ... tell her she needs to give you a herd price rather than the individual animal rate of $50 per visit. If she won't work with you on the costs, find a farm vet that has rabbit experience ... may have to look far and wide, but you should be able to find someone that won't rake you over the coals on office visits.
 
AnnClaire":2frhhax6 said:
Awesome Stormy! Better Bordatella than pastuerella ... although, I still think culling the Hotot that was so sickly was still the right call. One way or another, his genetics were not robust and probably not something you wanted to perpetuate.

As for the vet wanting to see each bun ... tell her she needs to give you a herd price rather than the individual animal rate of $50 per visit. If she won't work with you on the costs, find a farm vet that has rabbit experience ... may have to look far and wide, but you should be able to find someone that won't rake you over the coals on office visits.
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Thanks AnnClaire - I don't know if there are any "farm vets" but I will look. The herd price idea is good too.

Thanks for your backup on the Hotot it just sucks because they are so rare, for me to even get another is a huge output of money and since I'm going to lose my sweet doe after her babies wean, I may be out of Hotots altogether. I understand selecting for strength but it is hard with rare breeds when the choices are so much less.

The vet at the testing facility suggested I just wait and test anyone whose Bordatella symptoms don't clear on their own - I really hope that is effective. Seeing as it took 4 months for snot to pop up in the Hotot doe I am kind of in a holding pattern!! I don't want to be disinfecting my hands daily between rabbits for months... argh. But I guess Pasteurella can be elusive unless there are direct symptoms.
 
sommrluv":13dk7cqb said:
Seeing as P can 'hide' I think that's HORRID advice from a vet.
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I don't think it can hide if Bordatella is doing its damage on the lungs... because that disease comes hand in hand with P I believe the strategy is that the rabbit CAN'T overcome Bordatella symptoms if P is present - Bordatella does such damage to something in the lungs - hairs? - which causes the P to aggressively take hold. I found the research on all this but I'm afraid I just don't remember where.

I just have one doe who sounds terrible at this point, everyone else recovered from Bordatella quite quickly, which indicates there is not a second pathogen. If this last doe, who got sick last, hesitates to be better I'll test her. Believe me, I would want to know too!! But it was only the Hotot doe who has had a lethargic, unwell disposition for the past few months... and NOT blowing infectious snot til the day I got a sample and isolated her immediately, and no one else is acting that way. Lethargy is one of the symptoms of P...

The fact I noticed the little bit of snot and isolated her immediately may be how it didn't spread. There was no snot nor ever any sneezing til then. I try to pay attention to what is happening with them every day. I pray that has paid off. I thought it was more infectious that just petting an infected rabbit could spread it - but perhaps that rabbit has to be presenting symptoms in order for it to spread.
 
Stormy, I hear you about having to cull a breed that is rare in your area! Hopefully, the kits will be healthy and you will be able to keep them. You may also want to keep the doe for 30 days after weaning the kits ... if you can afford the quarantine space, that is. It will give her a chance to improve without the drain of nursing the kits. If it is simply Bordatella, giving her a chance to increase her condition might be all she needs to fight this illness off. Then, you still end up with a proven senior doe who has demonstrated a robust immune system ... and using one of her bucklings to breed back to her will reinforce the good genetics you (and other breeders) need/want in your breeding stock. Also, by line breeding like this, you will get the opportunity to observe the health of the kits to see what strengths/weaknesses are in her genetics.
 
Thanks AnnClaire - but she definitely has Pasteurella :cry_baby: She's gonna have to go... and of course we love her, she's a doll, camped out in our kitchen getting fat off scraps. *That* is going to be a hard day when it comes. We pray we can save those babies. I don't know what we'll do after that... I don't think sis x bro is the best combo... right? I'll have to keep an ear out for a chance to get an East Coast Hotot out this way, IF they survive to be P free. Otherwise we're just out of Hotots. I mean, I could go back to the breeder of the buck - who's a rising star what she's been doing for the breed - but with the buck I got not being so strong and healthy I wonder if that is wise to take another chance, even if I got a different line from her. Oh, what to do... I guess we have to "wait and see"! They really are gorgeous rabbits. We also got Beverens at the same time, a breeding pair, and I've got to say those are big sturdy seeming animals. My BF likes the sleeker sexier Hotots though ;) Those eyes!
 
If you do go back to the Hotot breeder, insist on a health warranty ... if they are a reputable breeder they should be interested in maintaining their reputation and should provide at least a 2 week warranty.

Of course, this also means that you will probably have to do the pickup yourself ... no middleman transport as that would introduce too many variables for the breeder to be comfortable with.

I just found out that the lady I bought my EA doe from regularly treats with ivormec :eek: Well, I don't do that! And, I also found out that she doesn't admit that fur mites are fur mites! Guess I won't be buying any more stock from her.

Another thing you might consider (which might raise the price) is to ask the breeder for an older pair ... intermediate age (6-8 mos) ... generally, a weak immune system will show itself by that time. Have you been in contact with the Hotot breeder about his ill health and what was their response?
 

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