Terrible news - Pasteurella - what to do?

[Stormy]

@AnnClaire - wow you really put love and work into your kits! You keep them away from the moms except feeding time? How do they learn how to be rabbits? Moms teach them all sorts of things... like, um, washing their faces... I guess the food and water thing is handled...<br /><br />__________ Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:43 pm __________<br /><br />

In my barn, if you show symptoms, you are culled immediately.

OneAcre, you didn't test your remaining rabbits? I know you got a lot from the pix of your barn... but... is it possible you still have carriers in there? or do you consider it no big deal if asymptomatic? Everyone is saying to cull all with Pasteurella, to not keep or breed them, so I'm a little confused. What if some of my tests come back positive but they have no snuffles...?

 

[AnnClaire]

Stormy, they have mom time, but when they are so little, and I have wicked cold with high winds, nope, I bring them in ... and then, the past few weeks, I have had a stray cat prowling and harrassing the bunnies at night.

It is when the newborn kits are in the nest box in the cage at night that I lose kits. When I bring them in, I have fewer kits drug out on the wire because it was still latched on, fewer develop nest box eye, and they are totally socialized in case the meat mutts are sold as pets, and the pedigreed are ready for showing.

Then, after weaning, when the ground is "good" and the weather isn't snowing or raining, the kits go in the runout pen daily with the senior does, so plenty of opportunity to learn rabbit things from other rabbits.

 

[Dood]

Only cull a rabbit that shows symptoms.

It is generally accepted that all rabbits will carry some form of pasturella but not in large numbers since their immune systems are strong enough to keep them in control.

The asymptomatic carrier rabbits are more resistant to the bacterium and should be kept as breeders to pass on their hardiness to the next generation. But pasturella is mutating all the time so everytime you ad a rabbit to your colony you may be introducing a different variety of pasturella that your rabbits are susceptible to.

By having a 30+ day quarantine you are making sure the new rabbits don't have a flare up and shed lots of spores into the environment and you are accidentally exposing your both your new and old rabbits with very low numbers of each others natural bacteria and giving them a chance to develop some antibodies.

By exposing kits to low doses of a wide variety of germs you are boosting their immune systems.

By exposing them to lots of foreign stimuli like touching, strange sounds and smells you are desensitizing them to novel situations and they are less likely to become stressed when placed in their new homes and hence they are less likely to have an outbreak of pasturella, or any disease for that matter.

All of these things have been done with other companion animal species for years and they can be applied to rabbits as well.

 

[fuzzy9]

Wow, so sorry this is happening!

 

[OneAcreFarm]

@AnnClaire - wow you really put love and work into your kits! You keep them away from the moms except feeding time? How do they learn how to be rabbits? Moms teach them all sorts of things... like, um, washing their faces... I guess the food and water thing is handled...

__________ Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:43 pm __________

In my barn, if you show symptoms, you are culled immediately.

OneAcre, you didn't test your remaining rabbits? I know you got a lot from the pix of your barn... but... is it possible you still have carriers in there? or do you consider it no big deal if asymptomatic? Everyone is saying to cull all with Pasteurella, to not keep or breed them, so I'm a little confused. What if some of my tests come back positive but they have no snuffles...?

No, I culled them all and started over from scratch....I was NOT going to take a chance on keeping any of them. Besides, as I said, they ALL came down with symptoms. I cull anything that is symptomatic.<br /><br />__________ Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:36 am __________<br /><br />

The asymptomatic carrier rabbits are more resistant to the bacterium and should be kept as breeders to pass on their hardiness to the next generation.

I disagree...carrier rabbits, asymptomatic or not, are reservoirs of disease and will infect others. There is a difference between a "carrier" and a rabbit that has been exposed to P.Multocida but their immune system fights it off. These rabbits do not "carry" P. multocida. The problem is that it is not easy to tell which they are...if you save a seemingly asymptomatic rabbit, it is a good idea to quarantine it and expose only one rabbit to it that you can afford to lose. If the exposed rabbit becomes ill, the asymptomatic rabbit is a carrier should be culled. If not, then it likely is NOT a carrier, but one with a healthy immune system that should be kept for breeding purposes.

I don't personally believe that "all rabbits carry pasteurella". I do believe that they have all likely been exposed to it at one time or another. It's like Staph or Strep...it can live on your skin but that does not make you a 'carrier' that is infectious to all you come in contact with.

 

[Stormy]

Thanks for sharing your experience, OneAcre... that makes sense to me... I don't want to keep sources of infection in my rabbitry, at all. We were all doing fine before pasteurella was introduced - so it was not just hanging around on the rabbits I've been raising...<br /><br />__________ Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:07 am __________<br /><br />

Stormy, they have mom time, but when they are so little, and I have wicked cold with high winds, nope, I bring them in ... and then, the past few weeks, I have had a stray cat prowling and harrassing the bunnies at night.

It is when the newborn kits are in the nest box in the cage at night that I lose kits. When I bring them in, I have fewer kits drug out on the wire because it was still latched on, fewer develop nest box eye, and they are totally socialized in case the meat mutts are sold as pets, and the pedigreed are ready for showing.

Then, after weaning, when the ground is "good" and the weather isn't snowing or raining, the kits go in the runout pen daily with the senior does, so plenty of opportunity to learn rabbit things from other rabbits.

This sounds like a good plan! I too have lost babies to a neighbor's cat. Love the laundry basket idea however, we have cats and I think the temptation would be too great - how do you manage with yours?
Thanks for the great idea!

 

[Dood]

My new fancy Hotot doe I had shipped from Convention 4 months ago has been diagnosed with Pasteurella

We were all doing fine before pasteurella was introduced

If you've had this rabbit for 4 months, where do you think she got pasturella from? It was likely already in your herd and that's where she got it and she became stressed and her immune system couldn't handle it and she had a flare up.

 

[Stormy]

My new fancy Hotot doe I had shipped from Convention 4 months ago has been diagnosed with Pasteurella

We were all doing fine before pasteurella was introduced

If you've had this rabbit for 4 months, where do you think she got pasturella from? It was likely already in your herd and that's where she got it and she became stressed and her immune system couldn't handle it and she had a flare up.

Well, I can see where you are coming from, but I only handled the new bunnies in quarantine first before going to the rest of the herd - as the old herd were on quarantine for vent disease. (ugh)
So... the other Hotot buck was on Penicillin for months as he got stationed next to a not-as-new buck bred to one of the old herd and thus exposed to vent disease, also transmitted by nose, so he was treated with the rest of them for a few months. When the treatments stopped, the pneumonia started a couple weeks later. I debated putting him down but instead shot him up with Duo-Pen again which cleared up his symptoms right away.

The mistake was, this rabbit was never doing well - never gained weight and looked like crap - I should have isolated him immediately. I thought it was just stubborn coccidia I was helping him get over. So when he started sneezing and rasping it was too late he passed it along to the others all of a sudden the bucks next to him have runny noses.

What I learned is, never to put rabbits from different breeders next to each other in quarantine. I had an 8 foot cage with 3 cubbies, so that is what I used = mistake.

__________ Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:38 pm __________

I would also inform the breeder that the immune system of her buns is becoming compromised, she truly may not know - these disease become evident when rabbits are under stress and they are likely perfectly healthy on her property.

Sounds like the breeder is used to some of her animals falling sick under stress and claims "all rabbits carry pasteurella" so I guess that sounds like I was sold an animal and carted across the country that was already infected. The other in the litter that went to a different home also got sick and died. Apparently this just happens according to this breeder. What gets me is that I went to great lengths to get 4 rabbits carted across the US and one rabbit from one breeder with one perspective about pasteurella being normal infected all of my new show bunnies some of which I paid $100 apiece for. Sorry if I sound angry, I am. I am rather attached to my animals not to mention I went to great lengths to get the very best Beveren buck I could lay my hands on from the top breeder in the country.

 

[phillinley]

__________ Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:38 pm __________

I would also inform the breeder that the immune system of her buns is becoming compromised, she truly may not know - these disease become evident when rabbits are under stress and they are likely perfectly healthy on her property.

Sounds like the breeder is used to some of her animals falling sick under stress and claims "all rabbits carry pasteurella" so I guess that sounds like I was sold an animal and carted across the country that was already infected. The other in the litter that went to a different home also got sick and died. Apparently this just happens according to this breeder. What gets me is that I went to great lengths to get 4 rabbits carted across the US and one rabbit from one breeder with one perspective about pasteurella being normal infected all of my new show bunnies some of which I paid $100 apiece for. Sorry if I sound angry, I am. I am rather attached to my animals not to mention I went to great lengths to get the very best Beveren buck I could lay my hands on from the top breeder in the country. What the f#$%k.

I was at a table a couple of weeks back where the Pres of the ARBA Mike Avesing was the judge. (If you ever get him as a judge for one of your bunnies, he goes the extra mile explaining everything in great detail if you have any questions, especially with kids). We were showing our silver foxes and Avesing picked out one of our opponents who he said had all the looks of pasteurella and dq'ed her. The lady asked if there was anything he could do and the rest of the herd, he said what others have said. You have to put that one down because it does not have the immune system to cope that your other rabbits had. He then went on to explain a lot of the research studies the ARBA has done on the disease to show exactly why keeping that rabbit could potentially compromise the rest of their herd. It was a kid doing the actual showing so it was rough for them to hear when his mom was asking the question. I only mention this to back up what some others have said. They all have some strain of it, if their immune systems are not up to snuff, it'll show up, and a rabbit with a weak immune system is not good to have around.

Also as others have stated, reducing the chances of a rabbit being stressed make a lot of difference. We handle our rabbits a lot, play music in their area, and they basically flop out in their carriers chilled all day when we bring them to shows. When we get a new rabbit I get a little worried at first because they don't always have that chill factor until we get them handled well. Hopefully we are done ever buying another rabbit after this last weekend though since everything in our barn seems to be set.

 

[AnnClaire]

Wow, Stormy, I would be annoyed too ... and I do not agree that "all rabbits have it" ... I am with the others that all rabbits have probably been exposed to it, and therefore will test positive in the test looking for an immune response to it, but not necessarily be an active carrier.

As for the kits in the baskets in the house, a left over piece of cage wire over the top of the basket works to keep the cat out ... a book or two on top keeps the cat from knocking it off ... or makes enough noise for me to get there in time to prevent the brat from doing any damage LOL I also keep them up on a table, out of the way of feet and cats and dogs (and the cat is NOT ALLOWED up there!!! We have "discussed" that several times) ... sometimes it is the dining room table, other times it is my craft table ... whichever one has clear space at the time And then, there is the indoor corral ... they get to go in there at about 3 weeks until about 8 weeks in the winter ... younger in the summer when they can go out to the garden cart, then to the growout cage.

My goal is to maximize their exposure to as many new situations and experiences as possible as I never know what environment a pet will go into ... and would hate for them to spaz out and break a neck or back because they hadn't been carried around, handled every day, met a dog/cat, or heard the dog bark. They are exposed to noises from the TV, people walking back and forth, the phone ringing, people talking/laughing loudly, lights going on/off, doors opening/closing, etc.

Did you know there are people who have rabbits that freak out if they enter the rabbitry unexpectedly? Yeah, shocking IMHO, and so easily addressed. When I saw that posted in another forum, I decided that my kits would not be so excitable if sent to another home. Even with my adults, I go out with a flashlight at different hours of the night at times just to accustom them to night time visits. Especially since I have a watch dog that barks at things and I always go to check on what she is alerting for ... sometimes it is a cat and I tell her to be quiet, but she is doing her job, and the rabbits are alert, but not doing the bunny blender in their cage either.

The dog will get excited and run through the rabbitry or past the runout pens and even though the rabbits will freeze and look around, they are not scared of her, just looking to see if she is chasing something. I will say, they don't seem to like the sound of a diesel motor ... but the trash truck doesn't bother them with it's beeping and compactor noise.

And, rabbits don't seem to learn much from mom, other than what is good to eat, as most grooming behaviors are genetically programmed. I have also seen my bunnies learn to go on alert to certain bird calls from the behavior of the adults, too. But, there is very little they need an adult to learn from. I find that they do benefit from a mixture of ages, but even that is not necessary as long as there is plenty of interaction with something else.

One thing the babies do very well is annoy the adults ... they will start running/binking around the runout pen and invariably run over, bump into an adult who is just not in the mood, and she will disipline the offender. And in the growouts, there are offenders and soothers I wish I could just sit and watch them all day, but the times I can sit down for a break, I love to watch their interactions!

 

[Peach]

Very sorry to hear I had to put down Jack (my first rabbit) about two weeks ago because he contracted pasturella sometime during our many trips away from the house. His partner didn't show signs for a while and then eventually surfaced. It's not what you want to do, but what you have to do to keep the herd safe. Especially after investing $75-$250 on a good amount of your herd. I tried to talk myself out of it, but as you watch them get sicker or have it resurface over time, it's not fair to them *hugs*

 

[Stormy]

Just for the record, I've had my 6 new rabbits for over 4 months... they are quite used to their new home. They get visited daily but live outside where they are visited by cats, raccoons, foxes - plenty of things to scare the living daylights out of them. I visit at night, no problem, wind, rain you name it they have been through it. The sick Hotot buck was a bit of a nervous wreck, he just was, and I believe the carrier being that he was sickly since he arrived. The prize Beveren buck was the mellowest sweetheart in the world. If he was going to get sick and die from Pasteurella cuz he "just had it already" he would have done that after his week at convention and his 2,000 mile trip, not 4 months after I've had him, when his neighbor two holes over starts sneezing because the antibiotics stopped. 2 weeks later and the Beveren's snuffling. And the Harlie... If they all "already have pasteurella" the time for manifesting symptoms from stress long passed. These are not stressed out rabbits. They have large cages, toys, get handled every day. I took them out into day runs to play in the grass. They have great views of the horse pasture. They are not overprotected, really, if they had weak immune systems it would have manifested during these harsh winter months, not after an infected rabbit sneezed.

 

[AnnClaire]

Yeah, it sounds like the Hotot was the source of the infection ... in another forum, there was also a discussion of the various strains of P. and how one herd might have one strain that the immune systems were successfully keeping suppressed and a new strain is introduced that they do not have the immunities to ward off. If you quarantine and have survivors that remain/regain health, those are the ones to continue to breed. They have demonstrated a robustness of immunity that will result in a healthier herd. As has been shown in research, treatment with antibiotics is a life-long procedure, and as you have found, cessation of that treatment results in renewed contagion.

I can't remember if you mentioned it or not, but did you know before receiving the Hotot buck that he was on a course of antibiotics?

And, no, I don't believe they all "already have pasteurella", but rather that many rabbits have been exposed to it ... big difference. They can be exposed to it, their immune systems successfully fight off that particular strain, they remain healthy with an immunity developed, and succumb to a different strain that is introduced. This is the "multicodia" in the Pastuerella multicodia(sp?) ... there are various different strains of Pastuerella with slightly different symptoms, but they all invariably reside in the same area of the body, and progress at similar rates through the different bodily systems.

More than likely, the Beverens were healthy stock ... and evidently with robust immune systems as demonstrated by their cross-country trip, through Convention ... but they have been ambushed by a strain of P they have not developed an immunity to, but they stand a better chance at doing that. You don't mention whether you have begun breeding the Beverens yet or not?

 

[Dood]

Some diseases have a infectious dose of only a few spores, ie Anthrax, which is why it so deadly. In other disease you must drink a cup full to show symptoms and this is basically what you did by keeping them near an actively shedding host the sickly Hotot buck that you foolishly kept near healthy rabbits - you increased the dose of bacteria they were breathing in every second and their immune systems could not keep up.

 

[Stormy]

Yeah, it sounds like the Hotot was the source of the infection ... in another forum, there was also a discussion of the various strains of P. and how one herd might have one strain that the immune systems were successfully keeping suppressed and a new strain is introduced that they do not have the immunities to ward off. If you quarantine and have survivors that remain/regain health, those are the ones to continue to breed. They have demonstrated a robustness of immunity that will result in a healthier herd. As has been shown in research, treatment with antibiotics is a life-long procedure, and as you have found, cessation of that treatment results in renewed contagion.

I can't remember if you mentioned it or not, but did you know before receiving the Hotot buck that he was on a course of antibiotics?

And, no, I don't believe they all "already have pasteurella", but rather that many rabbits have been exposed to it ... big difference. They can be exposed to it, their immune systems successfully fight off that particular strain, they remain healthy with an immunity developed, and succumb to a different strain that is introduced. This is the "multicodia" in the Pastuerella multicodia(sp?) ... there are various different strains of Pastuerella with slightly different symptoms, but they all invariably reside in the same area of the body, and progress at similar rates through the different bodily systems.

More than likely, the Beverens were healthy stock ... and evidently with robust immune systems as demonstrated by their cross-country trip, through Convention ... but they have been ambushed by a strain of P they have not developed an immunity to, but they stand a better chance at doing that. You don't mention whether you have begun breeding the Beverens yet or not?

Thanks for your explanation, AnnClaire. This makes sense. I am wondering if some rabbits can get over it and have a clean bill of health or if once they show symptoms, they've got it for life.
I pray the Beveren recovers. He is my favorite, if I had to pick a fav, I love them all. They were just coming of age and I bred the buck to my Beveren doe but I'm not 100% she took. I am also testing her. I thought I saw signs of her being a little sick but now she seems perfectly healthy. Fingers crossed she's healthy and that she took, in case I lose Big Mac - my giant sized Beveren who yes, now that you mention it - went through a lot and was just fine.

I just don't know what to do or if there is anything I can do, to help other people not make the same mistake with this Hotot breeder who I admit she's young, but she thinks its just normal to sell animals with pasteurella. She is currently one of the leading breeders of this rare breed, so I imagine there will be many more sick rabbits passed around. I also don't want to flame her in a group although I did let the club head know as I bought one of his rabbits too who came down sick.

A no, he wasn't on anti-biotics, he was sold as a healthy rabbit, who didn't hold up from the trip. When he arrived I started treating him for coccidia - and then discovered vent disease in my old herd and had exposed his neighbor buck so I had to treat all 3 bucks in a row including the Beveren, for vent disease. We did a few rounds of that and when I stopped, he developed pneumonia. Probably weakened his system with the Penicillin.<br /><br />__________ Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:50 am __________<br /><br />

Some diseases have a infectious dose of only a few spores, ie Anthrax, which is why it so deadly. In other disease you must drink a cup full to show symptoms and this is basically what you did by keeping them near an actively shedding host the sickly Hotot buck that you foolishly kept near healthy rabbits - you increased the dose of bacteria they were breathing in every second and their immune systems could not keep up.

um, thanks. I am learning, having never dealt with a deadly infectious disease before. Now I know the moment someone sneezes I have to remove them far far away from the rest of my rabbits. I treated him instantly when I noticed the respiratory issue but that was too late. I don't think he'd be that infectious on antibiotics, but I was wrong. I also thought with everyone else being perfectly healthy while he's always been a mess, that it was a personal issue. Pneumonia doesn't seem outwardly infectious, whereas snot and sneezing would be, though he didn't have that to my knowledge. The doe 2 weeks later was the first to show snot and I ran that to the lab to be tested, as I've certainly heard about Pasteurella on this forum!

I hope my tragedy is a learning experience for another new rabbit raiser. The moment a rabbit seems a little ill - isolate and disinfect your hands!

 

[mwtrees]

Often sneezing rabbits do not have pasteurella and it can only be dx with a culture. Many years ago Doc Reed was going to do some research on it and had problems finding rabbit with it as most tested for something else, often bordatella.

Respiratory diseases happen when a rabbit is under stress. In a barn environment that can mean that all of them may be under the same stresses but only some will have issues. That can be anything from changes in weather (warm to cold or cold to warm) or ammonia build up or a stray cat or dog or or or. A change in feed can be a stressor.

Sorry you are having issues. It happens to often and is frustrating

 

[AnnClaire]

As long as you can isolate any that are symptomatic, and provide supportive care ... wouldn't hurt to treat for bordatella that Trees mentions. The Hotot buck ... sounds like terminal cull for him is the only humane thing now.

For the Beverens, quarantine away from the healthy in your herd, and from each other, if you can manage that, treat for what is curable, and see which ones pull through. Those that survive will be the core of your breeding herd, but you will still have another hurdle to clear after that. If it is P, and you have survivors that are asymptomatic, you will need to watch for multiple cases of Nest Box Eye (NBE) in multiple litters ... if you find this, then your herd is actively carrying an active strain of P and they have not recovered.

I also have suspicions that in certain circumstances, weaning enteritis is also a symptom of active P in an asymptomatic doe. At that time, I would suggest that your only responsible action will be terminally culling.

This is why I recommend that people start off with a "Training Trio" of locally acquired meat mutts or pets before acquiring pedigreed stock. If you make a mistake with quarantine on the relatively low cost Training Trio, it is not such a financial loss as in your case. And, as you have found, there are a lot of "mistakes" that can be made that are simply out of your control ...

I hope this doesn't put you out of rabbits, and I support your action to report this breeder to the club (but I doubt anything will come of it).

 

[coffeenutdesigns]

Good advice, AnnClaire

 

[Stormy]

Yes, that is great advice and suggestions. Too late now, I am learning the hard way!

I spoke to the other breeder where I got the Hotot doe who tested positive, and he doesn't think it'd show up 4 months later in her if she'd had it all along from him, as she did go to convention and travel 3500 miles and a couple weeks of that would be pretty darned stressful. So, trying to trace back what happened here, it makes me think the Hotot buck whom I was treating for coccidia & exposure to vent - probably got his symptoms suppressed for P. Anyways, we did put him down. I am very sad about it. He had health issues but I could tell he was a very intelligent animal from our interactions, and he had the most amazing bunny fur. I pray some of his babies live and are disease free.

We will do as you suggest AnnClaire, and remove the babies except at feeding time. I have never done that and I am a little nervous if the mom will accept them if they've been removed all day? She is a new mom.

Preliminary results show my Harlequin buck, stationed next to the Hotot buck, may have Bordatella - huge sigh of relief! - but he was bred to a healthy doe unknowingly at the time exposed to Bordatella. I'll still have to test him in another 2 weeks to be sure Pasteurella isn't growing in there but I'm taking all the positive news I can get... And keep praying for the rest of my buns that if they did get exposed, their immune systems overcome it! One the edge of my seat hoping the Beveren then caught Bordatella and not P....

 

[MamaSheepdog]

We will do as you suggest AnnClaire, and remove the babies except at feeding time. I have never done that and I am a little nervous if the mom will accept them if they've been removed all day? She is a new mom.

I think you will be pleasantly surprised. On the few occasions where I have done it, the does hop right into the nest and feed.

Sorry about your Hotot buck. It about kills me every time I have to cull for illness. I don't relish harvesting meat either, but it is not nearly as distressing to me.

Have you tried providing them with chewable Vitamin C and/or Echinacea tablets? Electrolytes in the water and access to a mineral block would be a good idea too.