Terrible news - Pasteurella - what to do?

[Stormy]

My new fancy Hotot doe I had shipped from Convention 4 months ago has been diagnosed with Pasteurella. I am mortified and terribly sad. To make matters worse, she is probably pregnant. She has never seemed to feel real well which I thought might be coccidia, she had a lot of soft droppings when she arrived and I was treating her for that, but the meds seemed to make her sick so I stopped after 5 days, 2 rounds. She seemed to be much better, and the buck actually seemed to be going downhill fast with a respiratory issue so I bred the two, taking my chances. Ugh. A week ago I spotted some nasal discharge. I ran it into the lab and pulled her inside the house. Got my results yesterday - Pasteurella.
Results on a 2nd rabbit from the colony pen who likes to get loose and hang out under the new "quarantine" rabbits = Bordetella - *whew!*

The vet wants to treat with Baytril. Even though it doesn't "cure" the disease. I've got all my other bunnies to think about, not to mention I'm just beginning to build my herd to be able to produce a healthy flow of rabbit meat.

I know folks on this forum have recommended putting down every rabbit that has the disease. Barbi Brown did too when I checked in with her, pregnant or not. Rare or not (Hotot is the rarest in the U.S. right now!) I did see OneAcreFarm's thread about trying to wean litters early before infection. I wonder if anyone has had any luck. This doe is 3 weeks along.

The other thought I had was to pet her out since she's so sweet, with the understanding she is only allowed to be in a one-rabbit home and/or with another pasteurella rabbit... but I suppose I lose control of that the moment she leaves.

What has been your experience?

I have 6 other rabbits in the quarantine area, 3 are my new fancy show rabbits/endangered breeds. I think I am going to have to get each one tested. I have a couple bucks showing signs around their noses of a little discolored fur - yellow not white - they were next to the Hotot buck who was sick but cleared up with Duo-Pen. Different breeder so I wouldn't assume pasteurella. I wonder how I can get a test done if there is no discharge. It will break my heart and possibly end my foray into rabbits if I lose everyone!

 

[Mary Ann's Rabbitry]

It isnt really the point of petting her out.. It is the health of the rabbit...THEY REALLy dont feel good.. Just like you have a cold.Sweet or not.. It just isnt fair

 

[Stormy]

It isnt really the point of petting her out.. It is the health of the rabbit...THEY REALLy dont feel good.. Just like you have a cold.Sweet or not.. It just isnt fair

My vet and other sources I've read online including House Rabbit says the disease is managed pretty easily and rabbits go on to live long lives symptom free. I agree that'd be rough if she was symptomatic. I think my doe produced symptoms from the stress of getting pregnant. Of course all this time I thought she was just a really mellow rabbit and maybe in fact she hasn't felt well... but she also wasn't being treated to kill off the organism so she might feel a lot better after a round of Baytril.

I have a cat with a chronic sinus issue and I think she's quite glad to be alive, even though she sometimes feels like crap. Most days she doesn't. That's not the same as Pasteurella I know, but I'm just sharing that an animal or person can still enjoy their life with a chronic illness.

 

[mystang89]

I couldn't tell if you already did this but definitely quarantine her and thoroughly clean where she is or has been so that none of the others get it. I know its only supposed to live for 24 hours outside the host but in that 24 hours you don't want another getting it.

I've heard people treat their rabbits with medicine to manage pasturella but just remember she can never be around another rabbit who doesn't have it. So you'll have to find her a rabbit that also has pasturella, or that you don't mind getting it, and then treating that buck with meds. Any kits would have to be treated the same way so they don't give it to any other rabbits plus any kits you plan on keeping would have to be treated with meds if you found it in them as well.

 

[Bad Habit]

But how can you guarantee that she will receive the proper care in her new home? How do you know that they won't ignore her symptoms or refuse to pay for medication when she does have a flare up?

My first doe was given away, at her new home she contracted pasteurella, and the new owner refused to do anything to treat her. I begged her to put the rabbit down, so she wouldn't suffer, and the owner refused that as well. I can't imagine drowning in your own lungs would be a very pleasant way to pass.

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

Okay, you are dealing with your dreams, a rare breed, and a potentially, permanently sick, pregnant doe..
Treat the doe with the Baytril. Tell your vet you want to try the treatment protocol to eliminate the organism from the kits,( this is published in the Merck vet manual) so they will need treatment while nursing and during weaning. During all this time, you want to make sure the doe and the kits get the best nutrition possible--a wide varioety of high quality, immune system enhancing nutrtional elements!!!B complex, C, D, E Zinc etc preferably from fresh food sources.

Every rabbit out there has some strain of Pasteurella, unless it was eliminated through the protocol. You will need to develop a line of rabbits with healthy immune systems that do not let the 'resident' strains take over when stressed, and will hopefully, easily adjust to the introduction of new strains of pervasive illnesses.

 

[sommrluv]

If you plan to show or ever sell kits, you need to terminally cull her right away. Not only is it best for your herd, it's best for your reputation...do you want to be responsible for someone else's rabbits getting sick?

I understand that they are rare, but you're doubly not doing the breed any favors by keeping an infected doe.

There are many many rabbits that will test free of pasturella. So sorry you're dealing with this.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

It isnt really the point of petting her out.. It is the health of the rabbit...THEY REALLy dont feel good.. Just like you have a cold.Sweet or not.. It just isnt fair

My vet and other sources I've read online including House Rabbit says the disease is managed pretty easily and rabbits go on to live long lives symptom free. I agree that'd be rough if she was symptomatic. I think my doe produced symptoms from the stress of getting pregnant. Of course all this time I thought she was just a really mellow rabbit and maybe in fact she hasn't felt well... but she also wasn't being treated to kill off the organism so she might feel a lot better after a round of Baytril.

I have a cat with a chronic sinus issue and I think she's quite glad to be alive, even though she sometimes feels like crap. Most days she doesn't. That's not the same as Pasteurella I know, but I'm just sharing that an animal or person can still enjoy their life with a chronic illness.

She will be on life long antibiotics....and the pasteurella could still kill her. Rabbits are prey animals and they don't show pain and illness the way others do. She could be suffering and you would likely never know it. IF you pet her out, how would you know what happens to her? How would you know if they breed her or not? IF you keep her and the kits, you will need to keep ALL of them quarantined until the kits reach breeding age and see what the stress of breeding and kindling do to them.

The point is, rare or not, she has a weak immune system....why would you want that in your herd? I know it's hard to make the decision to dispatch her, but in the long run, it is the safest choice for all. As with anything, this is just my opinion...

 

[Stormy]

Thanks for all your input, everyone. We did come to the decision not to pet her out nor to keep her. Though there is a way to attempt to produce disease free offspring its a gamble and requires dosing the mom and weaning young, and lots of testing for 2 years. I wouldn't say her immune system is weak, she has had coccidia from the Convention which isn't dependent on a weak immune system - its a parasite - and proving hard to treat - and if she's taking 4 months to manifest any signs of pasteurella with that kind of load on her system I think she's pretty good. For those who don't have rare breeds, there isn't a whole lot of choice - many of these rare breeds trace back to one or two rabbit breeders in the country = not a whole lot of genetic diversity to work with.

My heart has sank looking at my whole rabbit herd as possibly having to be put down if the infection has spread, apparently its as easy as spreading a cold. Some are dear friends, and 4 others are rare breed rabbits. I am going to test every rabbit now. I am just crushed. I might be out of rabbit raising by the end of next week. I hope not, but just preparing myself...

 

[Dood]

I am sorry for your loss but i do believe it is for the best.

Coccidia is a very common parasite and can be found in almost any fecal sample, but in very low numbers that don't cause problems. Most rabbits immune systems can keep the parasite in check and show no symptoms, the fact she needed to be treated for coccidia means she is more susceptible to the parasite and it does indicate her immune system is not the best.

I would also inform the breeder that the immune system of her buns is becoming compromised, she truly may not know - these disease become evident when rabbits are under stress and they are likely perfectly healthy on her property.

 

[Miss M]

If you are following good quarantine practices, it is entirely possible that it has not spread. Pull her cage out, disinfect it, and put it out in the sun for a week, turning it every couple of days. Do the same with anything she's come into contact with.

You can test every bun if you want, but that's expensive, I'm sure... Just think about your practices:
Has she been near any other rabbit that is not in quarantine?
Did you always deal with your quarantine rabbits last?
Did you always wash thoroughly and change clothes before caring for your non-quarantined rabbits again?
Is your quarantine area far enough away?

Perhaps you need only test your quarantined rabbits. Or perhaps you need only keep them in quarantine for another 6 weeks from now, to be extra careful.

 

[Stormy]

I am sorry for your loss but i do believe it is for the best.

Coccidia is a very common parasite and can be found in almost any fecal sample, but in very low numbers that don't cause problems. Most rabbits immune systems can keep the parasite in check and show no symptoms, the fact she needed to be treated for coccidia means she is more susceptible to the parasite and it does indicate her immune system is not the best.

I would also inform the breeder that the immune system of her buns is becoming compromised, she truly may not know - these disease become evident when rabbits are under stress and they are likely perfectly healthy on her property.

Thanks for your concern, Dood. I don't agree about coccidia...yes its not uncommon but like any parasite, you don't want it there. You don't have all the info, however. This poor rabbit and her mate travelled 3,600 miles to get to me, passed through the hands of 4 people, and experienced a 5-day national convention of thousands of rabbits, with dirty show tables. I was tipped off coccidia is rampant at conventions because of the volume of rabbits and its easy to pick up. So if you were 6 months old, do you imagine you might be a little stressed? I think she's done quite well, to just have some soft droppings at the end of it and be low energy. Her mate has not fared as well, he hasn't gained weight and he had deep fluids in the lungs a few weeks ago. I thought he was a goner so I bred them, but with the past 3-weeks of Duo-Pen he's actually recovered quite nicely. Now of course I am wondering if he is the carrier and I passed it to her when I bred them 3 weeks ago. I have no way of testing him now until some time passes. I of course having no experience with Pasteurella did not take better precautions. I also since learned from the vet it can be transmitted sexually, so possibly it was my own doing, if it only takes 3 weeks to show up...

Since bringing the doe inside where its warmer she in fact perked up, has no symptoms whatsoever, and is eating like its going out of style (it is... sigh) and that is WITHOUT treatment.

I'm just kicking myself...<br /><br />__________ Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:25 am __________<br /><br />@ Miss M - no its been 4 months I got lax with quarantine - after 2 months no sign of any illness except for coccidia in the buck - and the quarantine area became my new caged rabbit area where I introduced my prize Beveren who's been living indoors with us for the past 6 months... (vs. the colony pen)

Why the heck would it take so long for pasteurella to show up? I can only attribute it to the series of really cold nights we had for a few weeks there, unseasonal, and it might have stressed out these otherwise posh-living bunnies.

 

[sommrluv]

I'd cull them both. Unfortunately, this is the reality of show rabbits. AND please tip off the transporters, and the breeder. Why keep a show rabbit you can never show or sell kits from?

 

[Stormy]

Yup, agreed... and who knows if the rabbits got it from home, their transporters, or the show... I'm new at this and learning the hard way. That's the last time I'm getting a rabbit passing through convention.

 

[Mary Ann's Rabbitry]

well stormy.. Sounds like you have more than one rabbit sick and it will make its way through your herd if it hasnt already. just because it came so far away. It is still a rabbit that gets sick like any other rabbit. You do know what you have to do.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

I am sorry for your loss but i do believe it is for the best.

Coccidia is a very common parasite and can be found in almost any fecal sample, but in very low numbers that don't cause problems. Most rabbits immune systems can keep the parasite in check and show no symptoms, the fact she needed to be treated for coccidia means she is more susceptible to the parasite and it does indicate her immune system is not the best.

I would also inform the breeder that the immune system of her buns is becoming compromised, she truly may not know - these disease become evident when rabbits are under stress and they are likely perfectly healthy on her property.

Thanks for your concern, Dood. I don't agree about coccidia...yes its not uncommon but like any parasite, you don't want it there. You don't have all the info, however. This poor rabbit and her mate travelled 3,600 miles to get to me, passed through the hands of 4 people, and experienced a 5-day national convention of thousands of rabbits, with dirty show tables. I was tipped off coccidia is rampant at conventions because of the volume of rabbits and its easy to pick up. So if you were 6 months old, do you imagine you might be a little stressed? I think she's done quite well, to just have some soft droppings at the end of it and be low energy. Her mate has not fared as well, he hasn't gained weight and he had deep fluids in the lungs a few weeks ago. I thought he was a goner so I bred them, but with the past 3-weeks of Duo-Pen he's actually recovered quite nicely. Now of course I am wondering if he is the carrier and I passed it to her when I bred them 3 weeks ago. I have no way of testing him now until some time passes. I of course having no experience with Pasteurella did not take better precautions. I also since learned from the vet it can be transmitted sexually, so possibly it was my own doing, if it only takes 3 weeks to show up...

Since bringing the doe inside where its warmer she in fact perked up, has no symptoms whatsoever, and is eating like its going out of style (it is... sigh) and that is WITHOUT treatment.

I'm just kicking myself...

__________ Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:25 am __________

@ Miss M - no its been 4 months I got lax with quarantine - after 2 months no sign of any illness except for coccidia in the buck - and the quarantine area became my new caged rabbit area where I introduced my prize Beveren who's been living indoors with us for the past 6 months... (vs. the colony pen)

Why the heck would it take so long for pasteurella to show up? I can only attribute it to the series of really cold nights we had for a few weeks there, unseasonal, and it might have stressed out these otherwise posh-living bunnies.

I am not trying to bash you with this, but I want you to understand that your rabbit DOES have a weak immune system if it developed symptoms of Pasterellosis or Coccidia. I have had rabbits transported from WI to Texas, they spent 4 days in carriers with 7 changes of hands and vehicles and locations. NEITHER of them had ANY symptoms whatsoever when they arrived and have been healthy and happy for the last year and a half. I brought one rabbit 3 miles to my home and within three weeks, it was deathly ill and infected the rest of my herd, which had to be culled. Rabbits with good, strong immune systems DON'T get sick. Pasteurella Multocida is an opportunistic organism, like Staph or Strep. Rabbits are exposed and if their immune system is strong, they fight it off. If not, they get sick. Once they are infected, it is almost impossible to rid them of it, since it lives deep in their nasal and sinus cavities, where there is little blood flow to bring any kind of antibiotic to it. The buck having fluid in his lungs is a sign of pneumonia, which is typically caused by P.multocida. Breeding rabbits that are obviously sick is not a good idea, since you are working with immune compromised animals and will propagate those tendencies in your herd. I understand where you are coming from, believe me, I have been there. I DID NOT want to believe that I would end up having to dispatch my entire herd over one sick rabbit. But, in the end, I lost 24 because of one rabbit that did not want to dispatch. You obviously care for your animals, and that is a good thing....

 

[Stormy]

24 rabbits? holy crap. That must have been horrible. I am sorry to hear for your loss I have only got 14 beloved critters and that is bad enough. Thank you for your input. I did NOT know that a rabbit could contract Pasteurella and not get sick. Are you certain about that? I thought it was they could have it, carry it, and not show signs, but I didn't know any could actually be immune. hmmm..

The testing will tell all... I am praying the healthy seeming Harlequins are immune then.

I am also taking another hard look at my colony pen, 3 does came down with Bordatella 2 did not, while being shot with Duo-Pen for vent disease (yes, what fun I've been having!!) The Penicillin causes their immune systems to be depressed my vet says and she's not surprised some rabbits were carriers of an illness I put rabbits down for last summer and only now manifest with the suppressed immune system. Since I have a dichotomy here I wonder if I have 3 weaker animals...

No one warned me raising rabbits for food and pets would be such a time and money consuming hobby!! Not to mention, break my heart.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

24 rabbits? holy crap. That must have been horrible. I am sorry to hear for your loss I have only got 14 beloved critters and that is bad enough. Thank you for your input. I did NOT know that a rabbit could contract Pasteurella and not get sick. Are you certain about that? I thought it was they could have it, carry it, and not show signs, but I didn't know any could actually be immune. hmmm..

The testing will tell all... I am praying the healthy seeming Harlequins are immune then.

I am also taking another hard look at my colony pen, 3 does came down with Bordatella 2 did not, while being shot with Duo-Pen for vent disease (yes, what fun I've been having!!) The Penicillin causes their immune systems to be depressed my vet says and she's not surprised some rabbits were carriers of an illness I put rabbits down for last summer and only now manifest with the suppressed immune system. Since I have a dichotomy here I wonder if I have 3 weaker animals...

No one warned me raising rabbits for food and pets would be such a time and money consuming hobby!! Not to mention, break my heart.

I know, it can be rough... {{{hugs}}} It will get better, just hang in there. If they contract P., they have it. That is different from being exposed to it and not contracting. Their immune system fights it off and they aren't infected. They can also be infected and not show symptoms, as you said, and be carriers that can spread it to others while appearing totally healthy. In my barn, if you show symptoms, you are culled immediately.

 

[Stormy]

If they are infected, and not showing symptoms, will P show up on a nasal swab test?

I am testing all mine through the UC testing facility its $20 a test, not as bad as through the vet.

The reality of all this is still sinking in. Losing the new Hotots is one thing. Having the disease spread to ALL my precious bunnies is another, out of my own not knowing. I could soooo kick myself!! I have had enough respiratory sickness come through off the pasture and wild rabbit contact I didn't take fast action on the sick rabbit from convention. I now know I should have culled him or isolated him immediately and got him tested, not treated with antibiotics to see if he got all better (he did).

So I talked to the BF tonight about the scope of trying to save babies from an infected parent, with dollar signs. Two years of quarantine for the babies and regular testing seems way beyond his ability to dedicate that level of care. I think we decided we will have to put her down. We are both super sad as she is one of our favorites and would love to have babies from her. The reality is $120 at the vet just to get the Baytril to attempt to get it knocked out in 5 days before her babies are born is a bit of a stretch too, takes 14 days of treatment to clear up an infection apparently, so our chances of it even working - keeping her from infecting the kits - are slim.

super sad over here

I am really worried about my prize Beverens. Spent $100 on the buck from the best breeder in the country, AND he is a total love-bug, my fav. That is going to hurt. Keeping my fingers crossed that little yellow nose stain is something else. Prayers and healing wishes for all the bunnies over here are welcome! I am sending in samples Monday and it is going to be a rough week of anticipation.

 

[AnnClaire]

Wow! So sorry to hear about this situation! I realize how tough the decision to terminally cull can be, but in the long run, it is better for the animals, the breed, and your herd. That still doesn't make it any easier :grouphug2:

I also agree that notifying the breeder is a courtesy that can help them. Whether the P came from whithin their herd, or was picked up along the way, the underlying issue is the weak immune system. I have had rabbits transported long distances and through convention in the past, and they did not contract any illnesses. This shows a very strong immune system in these buns, which are the genetics I do want to continue in my breedings. I do have one doe that has one kit in just about every litter that developes nest box eye, which can be related to P, but I am still on the fence about that.

As for the little yellow nose stain, remember, rabbits breath exclusively through the nose, and respirate a lot of moisture, so it could simply be that the moisture is gathering around the nose, and you are simply seeing a darkening from the moisture of the exhalations. In this case, I would think that you can take a wait-and-see for now.

For Pasteurella testing, remember, a positive result does not mean the rabbit will develop active Pasteurella, only that they have been exposed and are successfully supressing the disease with a robust immune system. As long as they are passing that suppression ability to their kits, that is still a good deal in most rabbitries.

Another thing you might want to consider is to "bomb proof" your babies as much as possible ... I bring the nest boxes in after the first week (after birth if it is going down into the lower 20s with high winds) and transfer the kits into baskets ... handling them each time I take them out to nurse (1-2x per day), and each time I walk by the baskets I reach under the towel and run my hand over them. Once their eyes are open, they go into a communal laundry basket and still get a hand run over them when I pass by. When they are getting around, they go in a communal indoor corral in the living room. The dog and cat and people are going by constantly, stopping to pet them, sniff them, etc. The TV and phone are also noises they get used to ... then, outside, they move from the first growout cage to the larger one ... giving them different views, more dog barking, cat on top of the cage, etc. Then, in good weather, they also get transferred to the runout pen with the senior does ... everyone is expected to get along, the kits learn about how to show submission to senior rabbits, etc. It can sound like a bit much, but handling kits is definitely the fun part!!!