Pictures! Agouti kit from 2 Self parents? Steel gene

[Zass]

You can work through non-extension and clean agouti colors. It only takes one generation to root it out so long as they aren't super steels.

Dood's right, but if you are anything like me (and Dood, I suspect), then you like to know exactly what your rabbits are made of, and what they will throw.

AND I'd like to let you know, you have my sympathy!!!!

Steel can be super frustrating when it turns up where it doesn't belong.

 

[Zinnia]

Thanks, Dood. I don't show rabbits, so I didn't know that. :lol:

Maybe I'll just get really good at sifting through them like Zass. Some of them are pretty. This new one actually looks like a blue one pictured here. I think it's an Opal with Steel, but the Steel is strong, it covers most of the markings. I am just now seeing tan at the nape on his solid Blue body.

__________ Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:05 pm __________

And, thanks, Zass... for your sympathy. I am like you in that I feel like I need to know! <br /><br /> __________ Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:52 pm __________ <br /><br /> And now I found out that the other sire's lines are from a breeder that LOVED Steels... Oh, my. :roll:

That makes four possible impostors to prove out. I'll be busy going insane for the next several months. :x

Zass, I need a solid plan to do this. I know you've posted about how you've managed to figure your herd out... Hold my hand here for a moment. Can you give me clear steps and show me how to spot true E for this "Project" I am now going to undertake? :help:

 

[Zass]

Yeah I'll help!!!!

Tomorrow I'll get some new photos of my 9 day old kits, and show you how I sort out who is steel and who is steel-free. Everyone on RT would help too I'm sure!!!

The main thing is, no self can be trusted...unless they are also torts, because a tort can't be a steel, and is always a pure genetic self (aa) . Otherwise, you would need agouti's who were genetic AA to test breed your selfs to, and they aren't that easy to find.

If you want a visual self line who are steel-free, try breeding a tort(aa ee) to a clean agouti(or chinchilla) who carries self Aa E_. All the visual self kits could not possibly have steel.
You would want to test-breed any new self colored rabbits you bring in to keep it pure.

Someone else might be able to provide us with a list of all the colors that cannot hide or be a hidden steel.

I know all non-extension colors are 100% steel free because one copy of Es_ would prevent a rabbit from showing any recessive ee colors. (fawn, cream, orange, red, tort, frosty etc)
All good agouti colors, including tan or martin pattern and chinchilla if they have nice white agouti markings will be clean.
I don't know as much about the shaded colors.

Self can hide steel, and steel can sometimes pass for poorly marked agouti's, and rew or bew would be able to hide it.

Can't seem to be able to properly organize my thoughts today...

 

[alforddm]

Thank you Zass!

 

[Zinnia]

Thank you for taking this on! I'll be patient.

:all-ears: <br /><br /> __________ Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:22 pm __________ <br /><br /> Should we start a new thread titling the topic more specifically?

 

[JenerationX]

So that's chestnut steel in the middle?

 

[Dood]

Definitely a steel, cannot tell from the picture if it is black or chocolate but I'm leaning towards black

 

[Zinnia]

I think those are Chocolate Chestnut Steel. They have Chocolate ear tips and looked solid Chocolate at a couple days old.

 

[Zass]

A current litter, 10 days old.

lilac colored doe : _a bb C_ dd EsE (because she looks like a self and she has steel, I always question the first letter of the genotype, but she is out of a test bred steel-free self doe, so I know at least one _a is real)
opal buck : Aa Bb C_ dd E_

first row:
4 visual selfs
second row: opal, blue gts, and lilac gts.



See how the opal's ears and belly look in comparison to both the others? The lilac GTS will have a lot of ticking, and the blue gts will have little. But you can tell at a glance Not Steel, Steel, Steel.


The little "self" kits may or may not actually be steel. :shrug: Ticking can show up later, or not at all.



Right now I'm breeding agouti bucks(A_ E_) to steel (A_ Es_)and self (_a Es_) in hopes of getting decent agouti doelings to save...someday. :roll:

As you can see...this produces a TON of culls.

There is only one potentially savable kit in the litter, AND...I'm picky. Chances are that kit won't make the cut. It's been progress at a snails pace.

It works for me because they are meat rabbits.

But, once I can breed clean agouti to clean agouti and get rid of all the steels and selfs, the steel gene will be gone forever, and my agoutis will only produce more agoutis.

Selecting for better traits will get a lot easier at that point.

 

[ek.blair]

oooh!!! I LOVE that Opal!

 

[Zinnia]

Thanks Zass.

Tell us why you are not keeping the clean Agouti.

__________ Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:11 pm __________

Here's Elderberry's litter again. Crazy "Selfs" are turning Steel. And look at that Tort. I swear the coloring is wrong. Look at the belly. Is that a good Tort belly, or is it possible she's not a Tort?





And look at Elderberry pictured last. Is it more obvious that she's a Steel now and not Black Self? <br /><br /> __________ Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:12 pm __________ <br /><br /> That first kit was Solid Chocolate a few days ago. And now, WOW.

 

[Zass]

Thanks Zass.

Tell us why you are not keeping the clean Agouti.

It's not that that opal is already ruled out, it's just unlikely that the only kit in the litter that has the color I want will display all the traits I'm selecting for.
If she's a doe, she'll need to have a decent compact, or commercial body type, grow well and reach 5 lbs by 10 weeks and at least 8 lbs by 4 months old.
She must have good temper at puberty (no "hormonal" does for me) have reasonable litter sizes and display good mothering instincts.

If a buck, he would have to be bigger, faster growing, and foxier, and nicer than the buck I already have.

Chances are all that won't happen, but I'd be REALLY happy if it did.

__________ Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:30 pm __________

To be honest, I've been suspicious of that tort since your earlier post where mentioned that the color was off.
I've seen some adult blue and lilac torts in longer haired breeds that looked a lot like steels.

Could you get a pic of the front of the face? We are looking for agouti marks. Eye circles, cream lining the nose, a lighter color on the tops of the feet, etc.

 

[Zinnia]

Here you go. Do you see a possibility of ugly eye circles? I do.


__________ Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:53 pm __________

Newly discovered Steel from another litter. Lilac doe and REW buck.



The Blue Steel is handsome! (Oh no, I'm being sucked in by Steels!)
Last image is of the Lilac doe and her litter. I am nearly certain now (I'll post why soon) that the REW buck is Steel. But, this doe has suspicious coloring on her ears. This is my very first Lilac French Angora, so I don't know how "normal" ears on a Lilac should appear. They appear Brassy-Chocolate, not Dove gray.

__________ Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:19 pm __________

I think you've said this before, Zass. But, I think Angoras are harder to figure for Steel. That first image of what appeared Chocolate just a couple days ago... the fur is growing out. That fur would be Chocolate in true Self Chocolate Angora kits, in my experience, not this slate color coming. Only when they are a bit older will the wool color be so much different than the furnishings. I think the difference between that guy and the more obvious Chocolate Steel pictured earlier must be the recessive E or e, as the ES is co-dominant and the recessive gene matters here. It may also be that this (ugly) kit is aa and ES... <br /><br /> __________ Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:23 pm __________ <br /><br /> Look at these Steels. I'm amazed by the vast differences in phenotype with ES.
http://www.rabbitcolors.info/int/en/entries/A/1.html

 

[Zass]

Definitely a blue steel. Steels are pretty when they are out in the open
It's the hidden ones that drive me up the wall.

Which kit are you talking about in that last bit?

. I think the difference between that guy and the more obvious Chocolate Steel pictured earlier must be the recessive E or e, as the ES is co-dominant and the recessive gene matters here. It may also be that this (ugly) kit is aa and ES...

Any Es rabbit is always going to look like a self or steel. How dark or light the steel is seems to be controlled by modifiers, and the second gene really just determines if it's more or less likely to appear as a self even if it isn't one.
EsEs and Ese are more likely to appear as self (but not always, sometimes ticking is present), and EsE is more likely to make for a well marked steel (but doesn't always).


And I wouldn't hurt your eyes trying to see steel color on adult rabbits. Anything at all, including a little sun bleaching or urine stain, or a coat ready to molt can create an appearance of off colored or ticked fur.

 

[Zinnia]

This guy here. This is not what a Self Chocolate kit has looked like for me.


But, he doesn't look the same as the Chocolate Steel litter mate in the center here...


Would the difference be modifiers? Could a Self Steel (aa) in Angora have this very different fur color?

 

[Zass]

There are other things besides steel that can affect fur color. :shrug:

Your eyes are never going to give you 100% discernment between selfs, self steels, steels that are pretending to be self, and super lightly ticked steels. That is why many breeders really dislike steel, and most advise never to cross steel with self, or save any self kits out of steel lines.

No "self" kit can ever be trusted from a steel line. You would have to test breed to find out, assuming you had an AA rabbit to test breed to.

Or...you could just roll with it. If it looks self it is one, if it looks like steel, it is, and if it looks like an agouti, you know it has no steel.

That is what a lot of breeders do...which is why many lines are so mucked up with steel to begin with.

 

[alforddm]

I am definitely going to try to breed steel out of my rabbits. I don't mind the color itself but I do mind the consistency. I'm so glad this discussion happened. I wouldn't have fully understood what I was dealing with otherwise.

 

[Zinnia]

Since Elderberry's litter is so very different than any other litter I've had, I'm going to assume none of her kits are "normal" coloring.

Did I mention that there is a possibility that I have Steel in all four rabbits? The fact that ES ES could be a possibility adds to the confusion for me.

See any Steels? These guys have poor eye rings... But, Mom has nice rings. I'd like to keep a kit, but maybe none would be certain to be non-Steel....



their bellies are nice and white with slate undercolor. But, their ears are darker than Agoutis I've had.

Photobucket keeps deleting my pictures.. sorry! I'll try to fix that.

 

[Zass]

Awww, they are SO cute though.
Eye rings are sometimes hard to see in developing rabbits.
What are their belly colors like?

 

[Zinnia]

Nice and white with slate undercolor on two. One with no undercolor

__________ Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:17 pm __________

Here's what I found this morning out of a long awaited Fawn doe's litter...


Pretty sure he's a Steel.

And since she's a true Fawn, the Steel is from the buck. My REW buck.