Pictures! Agouti kit from 2 Self parents? Steel gene

[Zinnia]

The buck would have to be Es e to throw non extension kits along with solid colored ones. IF he had steel.

You said the self looking doe was in a litter with steels though? She could very well be a hidden agouti steel.

Es e rabbits can be hidden agouti steels.

The sire to Elderberry, funny looking Chestnut, would have HAD to show Es, if he carried it, right? Could he look somewhat like a Chestnut and actually be a Steel? If so, then it must be that he was a Steel like his own sire, grand-sire, gg-sire... I swear, his first (and only) litter were the most confusing batch of rabbits. Gold-tipping was evident on more than a few. Elderberry was the only "Self" out of him. In fact, I culled the rest because they were so atypical in their colors, I thought I was "safe" picking the pure Black one! :lol:

I guess the real question here is, can a Chestnut rabbit (remember, he was also ww, and Copper or Sandy-looking) have Es and still have Agouti markings? If so, then he would have passed this along to the litter. Then, the question would be, what would make the Black offspring (Elderberry) look pure Black and yet carry Agouti?

__________ Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:21 pm __________

Your wording was a bit confusing earlier. Did you say the doe who mothered the kits was in a litter of mostly steels?

I'm sorry. Yes. She was in a litter that really appeared to have Steels.

 

[Zass]

These are both chestnut steels (AKA gold tipped steels)

As you can see there is a lot of variation in color and amount of marking shown.

Essentially, they can appear anywhere from almost-agouti to all-the-way black.

A steel will never have ALL the agouti making showing up in clean white, but they can get pretty close to it. Having a pale belly, and creamish color in the ears instead of white.

Could it be that the wideband and roufus hid the fact that he didn't have all his white and was enough to convince you that he was a chestnut instead of a steel?

Do you know the colors of his parents?

While I'm at it...
Here's a blue steel showing a pale-but-not-white belly

and an opal for comparison:

Both are fryer age, and do not have their mature coats.
I've seen numerous blue steels labeled as poorly marked opals in the past.


(I have lilac steels too...in case you need to see one of those! :lol: )

 

[Zinnia]

Okay, here's another picture of the kit in question. She appears Agouti. Her dam is a Black Self (???) and her sire is a Chocolate Self(?)

And another...

 

[Zass]

Looks like a clean chocolate agouti to me.

 

[Zinnia]

Looks like a clean chocolate agouti to me.

Indeed! So, what in the world are the parents? I wish I could find a picture of Elderberry right now. But, think pure Black.

__________ Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:07 pm __________

Zass, your post with Steel pictures has me convinced that my Chestnut was a Steel Chestnut. And, no, I was never convinced that it was accurate then, or now. The breeder had all the genotypes listed on every rabbit in the pedigree. I had requested a Chestnut from her and got this rabbit. I'm sure she just didn't know, but his appearance, lineage and now offspring prove much of the written genotype on the pedigree wrong.

And, your theory about the ww and poor ring color is exactly what I've been thinking about. I think that all hid what he really was. <br /><br /> __________ Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:13 pm __________ <br /><br /> Here's Elderberry, the only Self in a litter of Steel-looking rabbits. Dam of the Agouti kit.

 

[Zass]

Don't expect to be able to tell masked steels from self blacks. :lol: No one can, and there's no need to strain your eyes trying. You will not be able to trust any self looking kits out of her in the future.

On the upside, you now know that Elderbetty ISN'T a super steel, she only has one copy, and can throw agoutis who do not carry steel.

(She would be Es e, her dam was a non-extension color, right?)


Since you know how to pick them apart in the nestbox, consider tattooing early(if you have a pen style machine) to help keep any heavily tipped steel kits she might throw separate from chestnuts later on.

I could totally see how it could get harder to tell when an angora's coat is grown out.

 

[Zinnia]

On the upside, you now know that Elderbetty ISN'T a super steel, she only has one copy, and can throw agoutis who do not carry steel.

(She would be Es e, her dam was a non-extension color, right?)


Since you know how to pick them apart in the nestbox, consider tattooing early(if you have a pen style machine) to help keep any heavily tipped steel kits she might throw separate from chestnuts later on.

I could totally see how it could get harder to tell when an angora's coat is grown out.

Good idea to tattoo early.
In your opinion, is Elderberry an Agouti that appears Black with only one Es? Could she be A a B b C_ D d Es e? I posted her dam and sire's genotype (what was written on the pedigree, anyway), in my first post. I know she carries a,b,d and e from her past litter.

 

[Zass]

I would think so, yes. Oh, and the self chocolate kit in my picture may very well be a hidden steel as well. I cannot tell, and I've learned the hard way that trying too hard just hurts my eyes.

If it looks like a self out of a steel carrier, it will require serious test breeding to determine it's real genotype. The best test rabbits to use are agouti or non-extension agoutis that have been proven not to carry self.

 

[Zinnia]

Got it. Okay, so it sounds possible for Elderberry to be an Agouti Steel and look ALL Black, having just ONE Es gene. So, I'm going to guess that's what's going on! I just want to have some hope that her mother (Cream) isn't carrying something fishy, too. And, I have already found mistakes in that breeder's pedigrees, so.... I may end up culling both. I have other does I am happier with, anyway. And, I don't like her enough to do a bunch of test breeding.

__________ Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:58 pm __________

Hmmm. I wish I could find even ONE picture on the internet of a solid Black Steel Agouti for reference...

If anyone can find one, please post a link.

 

[Zass]

What do you mean by solid?

__________ Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:20 pm __________

Here is the same heavily marked steel buck next to a chestnut agouti buck.
(Tattle, next to Mouse.)

If you look close the steel lacks eye circles, and he didn't have a white belly. The one I labeled a chestnut did have a white belly and underside of tail, along with visible eye circles.



And...as far as I know, ALL of these kits are steels, as the opal buck who threw them never had a self kit, even when fathering large litters to genetically pure self does:

The doe was solid black in color, we never confirmed if she was a self carrying super steel, or an agouti super steel. BUT, she did throw visibly steel colored kits with a self black silverfox (who was also a super steel, but self based...probably)
We knew she was super steel because she never threw non-steeled agoutis no matter who she was bred to.
Super steel doe:
[album]2193[/album]

 

[Zinnia]

You are like a walking photo album! I love it!

What I mean by solid Black is... Black all over, I guess. I posted a photo of her. And, your bottom photo of the Black doe is as Black as Elderberry. Again, she'd need to be that dark and Agouti to have given birth to this kit.

Just searching the internet, I am finding a lot of reference to being able to see some signs of Agouti on a Steel Agouti. But, Elderberry has none.

 

[Dood]

All agouti based - the "black" is actually a steel harlequin "Es ej" and had ticking as a kit just around the neck :shock:

 

[Zinnia]

Dood, did the Black grow up and stay Black, or is she still too young to tell?

By Black, you meant the Blackest one in the photo, right?

 

[Zass]

I have photo records of everything. It's the only way I've been able to sort out the genetic mess that my own rabbits are!!! :lol:

I've read the same websites you are looking at.
People are kidding themselves if they are saying that there is always some indication of it not being a pure black. Just as they are kidding themselves when they insist that they must be genetic super steels to look solid black.

They can be indiscernible, and it's not even uncommon. I wonder...if more people were aware, perhaps they would stop breeding steel into self lines! :soap:

 

[Zinnia]

Ahhh. The comforting voice of experience. Hope is returning....

 

[Zass]

Your cream colored doe is safe from steel. She is genetically ee after all. Es cannot hide there, so you can spare her unless you have another good reason to cull.

If she had Es e she would look like a visible steel, or a self.

 

[Dood]

:shrug: She was processed at 16 weeks

Mine loose the ticking around the neck around 4 weeks old and look like a self black.

As a kid ( :roll: early 80's) I bought a "black" ND buck to cross to my seals, sables and sable points and ended up with a bunch of chestnuts and chinchilla (which I assume we're actually shaded agouti but I wasn't as good at genetics back then :mrgreen

Steel isn't even supposed to be in ND !

So yeah it can hide - REALLY well

 

[Zass]

The lightly ticked kit next to the heavily ticked one in the first photo I posted waited until 8 weeks to show me it's color, before that it looked like a black self. :shrug:


I had people on facebook tell me it was impossible for my steels to show their ticking before their eyes were open!

I think this goes back to the fact that everyone's lines are a bit different.

__________ Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:54 pm __________

As you can see, mine often do, but not always.

Here is a lilac GTS:
[album]2837[/album]
and a black based GTS next to a chocolate GTS:
[album]2518[/album]

All showing their ticking before 10 days old.

 

[Zinnia]

:shrug: She was processed at 16 weeks

Mine loose the ticking around the neck around 4 weeks old and look like a self black.

As a kid ( :roll: early 80's) I bought a "black" ND buck to cross to my seals, sables and sable points and ended up with a bunch of chestnuts and chinchilla (which I assume we're actually shaded agouti but I wasn't as good at genetics back then :mrgreen

Steel isn't even supposed to be in ND !

So yeah it can hide - REALLY well

Cool!

The ticking around the neck that has disappeared is something I have seen in Elderberry's siblings and offspring, too.

__________ Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:01 pm __________

The lightly ticked kit next to the heavily ticked one in the first photo I posted waited until 8 weeks to show me it's color, before that it looked like a black self. :shrug:


I had people on facebook tell me it was impossible for my steels to show their ticking before their eyes were open!

I think this goes back to the fact that everyone's lines are a bit different.

__________ Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:54 pm __________

As you can see, mine often do, but not always.

Here is a lilac GTS:
[album]2837[/album]
and a black based GTS next to a chocolate GTS:
[album]2518[/album]

All showing their ticking before 10 days old.

Oh yeah! That's what I've been seeing. How do you store all these photos without your computer crashing? It took me several tries to load the photos in this thread.

 

[Celice]

Zass really hit the nail on the head a super steel can look like a solid:

here is a super steel opal buck I had:

choco chinchilla steel:

Chocolate agouti: