Pictures! Agouti kit from 2 Self parents? Steel gene

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Zinnia

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Elderberry's kits are a week old today.

Here's the grand-dam's genotype. She's had enough litters here, that I'm confident of her genotype. Nothing out of the ordinary up the line, either.
Cream Aa Bb Cc dd ee (Edited this... just a typo that had read Ee)

The grand-sire is where I feel the trouble is....
Chestnut Agouti
Aa Bb C_ Dd Ee ww But, his sire, grand-sire, gg-sire are Es (Steel) Silver tipped. He may hide either C, c or Cchd according to the pedigree, which includes genotypes, from a pretty savvy breeder.

The dam of the kit in question, Black Self (Elderberry).... Well, I THOUGHT her genotype to be aa Bb C_ Dd Ee. She had one previous litter (with her brother - oops :oops: ). Her brother/sire of that litter was Chestnut. Most all the kits were Agouti, but there were a few Torts, too. Torts, Chestnuts, Chocolate Chestnut, Opal, Fawn, Copper Chestnuts... That's how I determined the guess of her genotype. I think the mystery comes from her... (from her sire's side).

The sire of the kit in question is a Chocolate Self with this known genotype based on the breeders knowledge and another litter he sired.
aa bb Cc Dd Ee Nothing suspicious up the line on his pedigree. He looks true Chocolate and the other litter he sired had very true looking colors - no questions.


For now, here's what I see. She had 7 Chocolate-looking kits that we are calling "carob", :lol: because they never looked true Chocolate to me. Here's why. Most of them are Chocolate all over, but have a slightly duller, darker hue than any other Chocolates I've ever seen, with dark, grayish Chocolate in the inner ears, instead of the bright Chocolate I am used to seeing. So, these guys are a question, too! And, finally, the kit in question is the same, slightly off Chocolate color with a very light belly, under the neck, inside the ears, etc. Really Agouti or Tan Patterned looking, to me. But how on earth could it be either without showing in either parent?? :eek: Is there something I am missing with the possible Es gene in the grand-sire? This is driving me crazy!

Note: Their mom is Black Self. These photos show them getting Grandma-milk (Cream doe) as these were the kits in need of extra feedings at half the weight of their siblings... Hence the Cream colored mom in the photo.

The Agouti-like kit (on right) and one of the "Carob" kits.


And two with the funny dark ears and "Carob" color.
 

Dood

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I just see odd looking self chocolates :shrug:

There are other modifiers that lighten and darken rabbits which is why there is so much confusion about a particular rabbits colour :) and even within a litter no two are alike
 

Zinnia

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Here's another, showing the light inner ear to go with light chin, underbelly, etc.


Can a Self-looking rabbit hide the Tan gene? Because the dam's mom, (Cream) could easily be mistaken for a Blue Fox.
<br /><br /> __________ Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:58 pm __________ <br /><br />
 

Dood

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Can a Self-looking rabbit hide the Tan gene?
No, Tan cannot hide in self, based rabbits, only in agouti.

Because the dam's mom, (Cream) could easily be mistaken for a Blue Fox.
I don't think so as she has obvious ring pattern and lacks the while line along the lower jaw
 

PSFAngoras

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It could be a possibility that one or the other is actually a steel (?super steel I think they call it?) that has both copies of the steel gene causing it to look self. I don't have much experience with the gene myself, but i hear it happen frequently with NZ that the genes are basically not shown for several gen, and then crop up again later. I had a self black doe that was a Harli/SF mutt that threw agouti with a self blue chin buck that was extensively bred and known not to carry steel, so it had to be the doe who was steel.
 

Zinnia

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I am obsessing about this. And, the only real lead I have is that there are some serious Steels going on up the line in the Black Doe. She was the ONLY Self rabbit in a litter of kits that appeared mostly Steel tipped. The grand-sire is Silver tipped Steel... Would the Chestnut Agouti sire have been Gold-tipped (is that what they call it in Agouti colors?). All I know is that the litter she came from had evidence of Es.

So, to be a Super Steel, her dam would need to have Es (and show it because it's dominant, right?). :?

I'm going to solve this, I swear!

__________ Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:54 am __________

Dood":17mpef6n said:
Can a Self-looking rabbit hide the Tan gene?
No, Tan cannot hide in self, based rabbits, only in agouti.

Because the dam's mom, (Cream) could easily be mistaken for a Blue Fox.
I don't think so as she has obvious ring pattern and lacks the while line along the lower jaw
Thank you for confirming this, Dood. So, in the case of a Super Steel (Self-looking), she might be able to hide Tan, but I guess I am looking at appearing to "hide" Agouti, more likely, in this case. Perhaps she is a Super Steel (Agouti, right?), which could explain a lot.

I am only just confused about what this could mean for her dam, the Cream.
 

alforddm

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You said there were copper chestnuts in her litter with her brother. Is that what is sometimes called orange (ie A- ee)? If that is the case then she can't be a super steel.
 

Dood

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Youve made an error -
Cream Aa Bb Cc dd Ee
should be - Cream Aa Bb Cc dd ee

She cannot be super steel (EsEs) because her mother is cream (ee) the most she could be is single steel (Es e)

Elderberry's sire cannot be steel because he is chestnut, if he carried steel he would look steel

Steel hides in self - "aa E_" and "aa Es_" look the exact same ("aa ee" is a tort)

But cannot hide in agouti based rabbits - "A_ E_ " looks chestnut while "A_ Es_" looks steel, "A_ EsEs" looks super steel and "A_ ee" is fawn

__________ Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:28 am __________

On a side note - pretty much EVERY colour is a showable in the angoras because it is so difficult to figure out the genotypes with all that wool and the breeds emphasis is on wool quality anyway

Conversely most other breeds accept less than 6 colours and several accept only ONE because it is so difficult to figure out genotypes and they want to get those few colours done perfectly and consistantly in the pelts

So Zinnia, please DONT stress about it :)
 

Zinnia

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Dood":2c54irbx said:
Youve made an error -
Cream Aa Bb Cc dd Ee
should be - Cream Aa Bb Cc dd ee

She cannot be super steel (EsEs) because her mother is cream (ee) the most she could be is single steel (Es e)

Elderberry's sire cannot be steel because he is chestnut, if he carried steel he would look steel

Steel hides in self - "aa E_" and "aa Es_" look the exact same ("aa ee" is a tort)

But cannot hide in agouti based rabbits - "A_ E_ " looks chestnut while "A_ Es_" looks steel, "A_ EsEs" looks super steel and "A_ ee" is fawn

__________ Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:28 am __________

On a side note - pretty much EVERY colour is a showable in the angoras because it is so difficult to figure out the genotypes with all that wool and the breeds emphasis is on wool quality anyway

Conversely most other breeds accept less than 6 colours and several accept only ONE because it is so difficult to figure out genotypes and they want to get those few colours done perfectly and consistantly in the pelts

So Zinnia, please DONT stress about it :)

Yes, it just occurred to me that a Cream could not be Es, because it is ee (oops). Well, no matter what, I've got an Agouti-looking baby and two "Self" parents. So, something's up. I'll TRY not to stress about it! :lol:
What would a Chestnut Steel look like? He was a different-looking Chestnut! I no longer have him, so I can't show pictures. But, he looked Copper, or Sandy, wide band (poor ring color, wrong belly color).

__________ Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:11 am __________

alforddm":2c54irbx said:
You said there were copper chestnuts in her litter with her brother. Is that what is sometimes called orange (ie A- ee)? If that is the case then she can't be a super steel.
Well, in French Angora, as I have understood it... The Copper-looking Chesnuts were just Chestnuts with high rufus. They had ring color, agouti markings and looked Copper instead of Chestnut. <br /><br /> __________ Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:41 am __________ <br /><br /> There was a Blue kit that I thought could have been an Opal from the Chestnut/Cream first litter... the litter I mentioned that Elderberry came from. This rabbit appeared to have faint bands, slight agouti markings and definite gold-tips. The tips were unquestionably gold. This wasn't the only rabbit that had gold tips, but was the most obvious of the bunch. What a mystery. I had guessed it was a Blue Steel.

But, that would mean the sire would have to be Es (and show it).

Perhaps, as Dood stated, there are other modifiers that make the colors appear so different. I am beginning to think I won't ever really know what it is.

I will show more pictures of this kit as it gets older.
 

alforddm

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Could the sire not be a super steel? If she also had a doe that was super steel she might not realize they were actually super steels and self.
 

Zinnia

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alforddm":232fr1mt said:
Could the sire not be a super steel? If she also had a doe that was super steel she might not realize they were actually super steels and self.
I've mentioned a lot of sires. Do you mean the Chestnut sire to the dam who's kit looks agouti? Or do you mean the Chocolate sire to the kit that looks agouti?
 

Zass

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A rabbit doesn't have to be a super steel to be a masked or hidden agouti.
The "two copes are required" thing is a myth.
One copy of the gene can still pull off the trick. That is part of why steel can be so frustrating for breeders.

It's not playing by the same rules most people think it is.
 

alforddm

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Zinnia":kuy0z1pm said:
alforddm":kuy0z1pm said:
Could the sire not be a super steel? If she also had a doe that was super steel she might not realize they were actually super steels and self.
I've mentioned a lot of sires. Do you mean the Chestnut sire to the dam who's kit looks agouti? Or do you mean the Chocolate sire to the kit that looks agouti?

I just reread what I posted and I meant to say "might not realize they were actually super steels and not self"

I was referring to the chocolate sire of the kits in question.
 

Zass

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Whatever steel the parent stock is, it cannot be a super steel(EsEs).
A super steel is unable to throw clean agouti kits. (White bellies, white inside the ears, facial agouti markings, etc)

Like Dood said, no non-extension color can hide steel. Look for self colored ancestors to be the likely hidden steel carriers. Unless a heavily tipped steel buck was accidentally labeled agouti in the past.
OR
Is it possible that a different buck was exposed to the doe?

__________ Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:21 pm __________

This is one of my chocolate gold tipped steels, and a self chocolate colored kit side by side for comparison:

image.php

And the belly
image.php


You can see a faint eye circle, but the ears and belly are definitely not white
 

Zinnia

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Great pictures. I can see the subtle difference. My kit's belly and under chin are very light/pink right now. Very different than the other kits, who's bellies are Chocolate.

I will try to get some more photos. This kit looks very much like what my Chocolate Chestnut Agouti kits looked like last year, from a different doe.
 

Zinnia

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alforddm":10fz2z3m said:
Zinnia":10fz2z3m said:
alforddm":10fz2z3m said:
Could the sire not be a super steel? If she also had a doe that was super steel she might not realize they were actually super steels and self.
I've mentioned a lot of sires. Do you mean the Chestnut sire to the dam who's kit looks agouti? Or do you mean the Chocolate sire to the kit that looks agouti?

I just reread what I posted and I meant to say "might not realize they were actually super steels and not self"

I was referring to the chocolate sire of the kits in question.
Okay. I understand what you mean, I think. The Chocolate buck sired another litter days earlier. Those kits look "normal" to me. Since she can only offer ee, I'd think the Chocolate (if really Steel), would have given Es to some of the kits and REW (he hides) to others. There are REWs in the litter. So, any colored kits that are not ee should show Es. Am, I right? Here's the other Chocolate-sired litter (Cream doe).
 

Zass

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The buck would have to be Es e to throw non extension kits along with solid colored ones. IF he had steel.

You said the self looking doe was in a litter with steels though? She could very well be a hidden agouti steel.

Es e rabbits can be hidden agouti steels.
 

Zinnia

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alforddm":3pkmczyk said:
Any chance they could be out of a different sire?
That's a good question. I first bred her to a REW and was due on Thanksgiving. No kits, so I put her with the Chocolate for early January babies. She had her litter on Jan. 3rd. I will say this. She made a nest about 9 days early. A good warm, deep nest. I was confused, because it seemed a little late for a false pregnancy and way too early for the real due date. She destroyed the nest a few days later. Made a new one the day before she kindled. Does that tell anything? I don't know.

As far as accidentally getting in by another buck, no. There is no way that another buck bred her besides th REW earlier. And that REW has never given me Chocolate, so I assumed he didn't hide it.
 

Zass

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Your wording was a bit confusing earlier. Did you say the doe who mothered the kits was in a litter of mostly steels?
 

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