Peoples ideas about meat..

[Zab]

I guess this would fit just as well in the coffe table forum or hopping mad, but since the topic is meat and slaughter I decided to post it here, away from those not wanting to think about it.

Well, this is what made my head get to work:
We have a TV show called Farmen (swedish but I think you can see the meaning). A reality soap thingy.. the only one I watch :lol: They take a bunch of people and put them on a non-modern farm where they have to start with nothing and build pens to get cows etc. Reminds of the Farmville game on facebook, except that it's a contest and all the drama.. Maybe you have something like it?

This year, most of the people have some sort of interest in farming or at least the old fashioned life. There is one exception and I actually feel it's a bit unfair to her. She's a 20-something year old botoxed blogging girl from Stockholm with no relation to old time life at all. Don't take me wrong, I think she's handeling most of the stuff pretty well concidering everything, but it's unfair because no matter what she does she'll be compared to the others and it does scream ''city girl'' about her.. anyway, she's doing fine. I could be friends with her if our interests wasn't so completely different, I think.

Today in the show, it was time for first slaughter. They butchered two chickens. On Farmen there is a rule - to eat the meat you have to be part of the butchering. I think it's a good rule, but that's just me.
This girl decided to not watch and not eat. I respect that and she was good about it. Just saying ''no, I'm not doing this, it won't work for me'' in a casual way.

However.. then she talked about it later.. She loves meat. She's practically living on meat, really a meat eater. Much like me :lol: But she can only eat it if it comes in plastic packaging, she can not eat if she has seen it as a living animal. I quote her "I'm not like a vegetarian, they'd probaby eat if the animal had a good life. I just don't want to see it alive" I respect her opinion, she was very calm and neutral about it, but... What the :shock: ..?!

I realize that's pretty common.. and it scares me. It really does.. I mean.. you know it once was an animal even when it comes in plastic packaging? You know that it's probably an animal who lead a really horrible life in the meat industry that you're eating? And still you prefer to eat that as long as you can close your eyes to it, rather than a bird you've seen alive that had a decent life? Really?

Isn't that just frightening? Maybe I'm strange or overly sensetive.. but shouldn't there be some sort of alarm going off when you realize this? If you won't eat something you've seen alive (but not befriended, I mean.. it's not like a pet), there must be some sort of feelings for the animals. And still while realising this and realising that animal had a way better lifre than most meat... you still chose to eat the anonymous meat, knowing that too was an animal? You don't even have plans on cutting down a bit on it?

Our civilisation makes me wonder if it's not just better to have everyone become vegetarians. Or go by the farm-rule; if you intend to eat, you need to partake. (or at least watch). That sort of reasoning probably comes from the same (meat eating) people who blurts out that I'm cruel for intending to eat my rabbits. :roll:

 

[OneAcreFarm]

Zab, you will find this sentiment EVERYWHERE....it is like they think the "Meat Fairy" drops it off in the store, wrapped in plastic on little foam trays.... :roll: When people express negativity toward eating animals I have raised, I usually respond with this. "My rabbits are fed, watered, loved, cared for, worried over and catered to. They live happy, healthy lives and die quick, humane deaths. They aren't pumped full of hormones or antibiotics, they aren't left to wallow in their own feces, and they aren't ignored, neglected or abused. Can you say the same for the meat you eat?"

 

[Truckinguy]

My animals have a good, happy, carefree life and one bad day.

I think it's hypocritical to eat meat and not be prepared to take whatever steps are necessary to prepare it. I guess it's like a lot of things, though, not many people fix their own car, build their own house or make their own clothes. However, if nobody was around to do those things for them they would have to do it themselves or walk, sleep in a ditch, be a vegetarian and be naked.

 

[skysthelimit]

Isn't that just frightening? Maybe I'm strange or overly sensetive.. but shouldn't there be some sort of alarm going off when you realize this? If you won't eat something you've seen alive (but not befriended, I mean.. it's not like a pet), there must be some sort of feelings for the animals. And still while realising this and realising that animal had a way better lifre than most meat... you still chose to eat the anonymous meat, knowing that too was an animal? You don't even have plans on cutting down a bit on it?

Our civilisation makes me wonder if it's not just better to have everyone become vegetarians. Or go by the farm-rule; if you intend to eat, you need to partake. (or at least watch). That sort of reasoning probably comes from the same (meat eating) people who blurts out that I'm cruel for intending to eat my rabbits. :roll:

Sorry, I have to say I feel the same way she does. I know exactly where meat comes from. I love animals, they taste yummy. A I feed the rabbits to the dogs, and take delight in watching them enjoy their food. But, I do not eat the meat I raise or at least so far, I can say I cannot eat the meat I raise. I can hardly eat the vegetables I raise, knowing I am growing them in manure and some insect walked all over them. I can't eat the fruit off my trees knowing some fly landed on it.

The very act of butchering the animal makes the meat repulsive to me. I don't even cook packaged meat, I find that handling the meat makes it repulsive to me. In general, food preparation takes my appetite away. I can really only deal with frozen stuff out of a bag.
I don't think anyone is cruel, I just can't do it, and I can't get past the basic meat items like chicken, beef, pork, lamb and whiting, salmon, tuna, shrimp. I don't eat game meats, squirrel, duck, etc. I would do what I needed to do to survive, but I don't have to, so I don't.<br /><br />__________ Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:53 pm __________<br /><br />I guess as a city person I feel why do things you don't have to if you don't have to? That's what keeps other people employed, especially when they can do it cheaper and more efficiently that most of us can? That's why we have these industries. That's why we have public schools. People don't want to raise their own kids. I think all women should stay home and teach their own kids, but millions of people send their precious babies off to be raised by a system void of morals, and wonder why their kids have no respect for anything. Now that seems hypocritical.

 

[Oceanrose]

I would bet abut 80% of people are the same way. If you get it from a store you don't have to look into it's eyes. People who aren't raised on a farm, are not around the realities of the entire industry. They simply mindlessly eat. Scary.

This is one reason I am so happy I am Vegan. I can not kill an animal unless it is really suffering, yet at the same time, I refuse to eat animals who come from factory farms and are living horrific lives. If I eat the 2nd I feel like I am a hypocrite, if I eat the first, well, I'd just never do it. I have no problems with people who butcher their own animals, frankly I believe people should be required to do that first...

It doesn't stop me from raising rabbits though, and I could probably sell meat stock to someone who I KNEW would handle it humanely.. It's just interesting is all. I became Vegan for health reasons, but it's funny how much your mentality changes when you no longer rely on eating meat and can look at it objectively.

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

i agree more then i can probably even express well enough!

there is a pic going around the net of a newspaper clipping... someone said that people shouldnt kill their own animals and should get their food at the store where no animals were harmed to feed them.
honestly people dont even know anything about the way plants grow so in my opinion this goes for eating veggies as well. i mean honestly how many adults dont know that a pickle is made from a cucumber and not its own veggie? how namy people dont know that peanuts and potatoes and garlic and onions grow in the ground? that those little carrots just magically appear in cute little clean sticks in a bag on the grocery store shelves?


it really makes me sick that society has come to this. sorta makes me wish there would be a SHTF something happen and send us all back to the real world taking care of ourselves and our society. and actually knowing how the world works.


:shock: wow.... skysthelimit just shocked me... i find it very curious that you raise them and butcher them, only to feed them only to the dogs... lol well more for the dogs then
personally i'm the exact opposite. i want my veggies from a garden with fresh air and manure! i want animals that i saw them live happy, healthy lives for me to eat!
i get downright argumentative and defensive during conversations like this... so i will try to hold myself in check


skysthelimit, ever think of growing in a hydroponics system? you can enclose it so no bugs and you can grow year round. downside is you have to buy the nutrient additives to put in the water for the plants to use to grow and i'm not sure how pollination would go without any bugs let in, probably have to be out with a paintbrush playing bee.

at least you know how it all goes though. most people turn a blind eye and just argue stupidly with people who eat their own meat, etc.

 

[Dood]

You know that it's probably an animal who lead a really horrible life in the meat industry that you're eating? And still you prefer to eat that as long as you can close your eyes to it, rather than a bird you've seen alive that had a decent life?

It is a VERY common mentality and it scares me too.

I have used the term 'meat fairy' on several occasions when defending farming but some people would rather forget that the chicken breast they are enjoying came from a bird who has been bred to grow so fast that many of his barn mates died quickly of heart attacks or slowly from broken legs and never got to breathe fresh air or see the sun.

I am not giving up meat so I raise my own or buy from local farms that I can visit to be sure the animals are treated the way I would like them to be treated and are butchered at a local abattoir and not shipped halfway across the country in a double decker truck.

 

[Miss M]

there is a pic going around the net of a newspaper clipping... someone said that people shouldnt kill their own animals and should get their food at the store where no animals were harmed to feed them.

Here ya go:
<br /><br />__________ Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:24 pm __________<br /><br />Notice, "buy the meat that was made there"...

I don't really have a problem with someone who cannot eat meat because of the fact that an animal dies for them to eat it, as long as they don't have a problem with those of us who slaughter our own animals for meat.

I really have a problem with people such as the one who sent that to the newspaper (and it is real, I researched it -- the Speakout column for that specific date was deleted, but there were others on the day or two after that referenced this submission). People who are so disconnected from their food, that they don't even know where it comes from. Or... if they do understand that it comes from animals that have been slaughtered, they don't differentiate between those of us who give our animals a good life before slaughter, and those who don't.

 

[Zab]

I'm not against having others do the work. I mean.. fine, you let someone more competent build your house. No problem. But if you say ''I couldn't live in a house if I saw when they built it'' or ''I couldn't live in a wooden house if I saw when they chopped down the trees for it" I'd get worried. She wasn't requested to actually do anything else than watch, and they had been more or less starving for 10 days. It's still her choice and I don't mind her paryicular choice. But I find the mindset scary.

Skysthelimit: I find your mindset scary too. I can sort of understand how you think (I don't like the deer because I've seen it hang a few weeks after being smoked and I don't like having foods hanging outside unprotected like that..I'm affected too) But Iu still think it's frightening how people chose and how they blind themselves for things. At least you still feed the dogs and know how it's done.
As for schools: I find it the parents job to teach kids respect. They have other things to learn in school, it's not a place to learn respect and behaviour, its not suitable for those ''big'' lessons. It should of corse benefit them, but it can't teach it unless the parents and outside world take the big part. 'However a good thing with schools is that a large amount of abused kids are found by teachers, teachers may be the only outside relation they have and the only ones to notice when somethings are horribly wrong within a family and can help the kids with emotional and legal support. Not saying that's the whole purpose of schools, but a nice sideeeffect. In my perfect world, school would be there to teach material things; maths, language, skills and a wide spectra of things "good to know". Parents would take the time to teach kids respect, motivate them, point out the small, good things in life and have eyes for that very individual.

 

[trinityoaks]

The more I know about the commercial food industry, the further away I want to run from it. I don't know how things are in Sweden, but here in the U.S., it is getting horrendous. The term "frankenfood" comes to mind. I want to know what is going into the food I eat, whether animal or vegetable. In most cases, that means raising it myself, although I've been searching out local sources as much as possible, as well.

To see what I mean about "frankenfood", watch this movie. I don't know whether it's available outside the U.S. Right now it's $2.99 U.S. to watch it, but they often have sponsors that enable the movie to be free to watch for a week or more.

http://geneticroulettemovie.com/

 

[Diamond]

In our Western culture, we are immortal. So to acknowledge death, in any form, and to recognize that living, sentient beings must die on order for us to live, would dispel the illusion of perpetual youth and immortality. We have removed the faces from our food, as we have removed the concept of God from our cultural language. We create institutions for the elderly, ill and disabled so that they are not a part of the everyman's daily life - not our direct responsibility. Our societies do not want to acknowledge that suffering exists because we exist; it is just so much easier to veil the hard truth of mortal existence in some form of plastic - physical, or psychological.

 

[Zab]

The more I know about the commercial food industry, the further away I want to run from it. I don't know how things are in Sweden, but here in the U.S., it is getting horrendous. The term "frankenfood" comes to mind. I want to know what is going into the food I eat, whether animal or vegetable. In most cases, that means raising it myself, although I've been searching out local sources as much as possible, as well.

To see what I mean about "frankenfood", watch this movie. I don't know whether it's available outside the U.S. Right now it's $2.99 U.S. to watch it, but they often have sponsors that enable the movie to be free to watch for a week or more.

http://geneticroulettemovie.com/

I did watch it while it was free, actually
Well, you can't sell GMO here without saying it's GMO on the label. Doesn't count for cows eating gmo feed, but for food itself. I think we are more strict with medications and such (I mean, you even need a prescription for horse dewormer) but I'm not trusting the food to be what it say either way.

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

i as well watched the movie from that link while it was free. i find it extremely scary. another good one like that is about monsato specifically. cant remember the title, my dad showed it to me.

 

[skysthelimit]

I don't blame her for not wanting to see it. Many people do not like the sight of blood. Though I can't figure how any female would be not be able to handle a little blood. I still can't understand how so many people who had and raised children, changed diapers are repulsed by scooping dog poop. I'd rather scoop dog poop than change a diaper. People poop smells worse.
----

Raising and killing your own meat is just not a realistic option for most people. Even driving out to a farm to choose and have it slaughtered is not realistic. No more than making all of your own clothes. From the time I get home to the time I go to bed, I have about 4 1/2 hours. No way I can really do anything other than get it from the store. It needs to be quick and convenient.

And packaged so I don't have to touch it. Because...

I hate cooking period. I hate handling food. I hate handling meat just more than I hate cooking. It's species appropriate for dogs and us, but don't ask me to kill it and clean it and cook it. That is disgusting. It's not about poor cute bunny. It's about seeing the inside out and then putting it in my mouth? No way. I enjoy dissection for science class, but I don't have to eat it afterwards. If you want to clean it, handle it and cook it for me, I will eat it.



I do find it a bit offensive to call them mindless. It is not so much that they are blind. I know exactly what's happening, I've seen the meat packing plant footage, the documentaries, etc. You'd have to be dumb not to know this stuff by now, and I'm not going to say that the we are the only thinking humans and they rest of the world are a bunch of Lemmings (thought it does seem like those ones talk the loudest, but they aren't very articulate in their other choices either). Let's face it, we are all Lemmings in some aspect or another.
That stuff can make you afraid to live. It's a lose-lose situation for many. There are so many things that seem beyond our control- it's a what can you do about it thing. Consider yourselves blessed if you have the option of really controlling your food source. Or controlling anything else for that matter. Modern life for many means a lot of compromise, eat, drink, be merry, for we all die of something mentality. It's that way about a lot of things. I can't control all of what happens, the sweat shops, the stupid school system, the GMOs, the crooked politicians, Walmart's lack of affordable healthcare. And I can't live without the things that society provides, not without expense. I can't always buy American, I can't always afford to look for non GMO products, I can't always afford to eat name brand foods. I shop at Walmart for early everything, it's what I can afford. It's not that I am blind to the issue, I just don't have that many options. I am even fortunate that I can raise any animals for any purpose. All of the suburbs around me have ordinances prohibiting chickens and rabbits for meat. A breeder has to hide her rabbits, she could get into trouble if people knew she had so many, if they knew she sold them, or culled terminally. It's just not an idea world, and it works both ways.

Everything--our public education, our food, our air, our water, clothing, medical services--come with some type of price tag. Nothing is innocent.

 

[Mickey328]

Knowing (some) of what happens to produce that meat, and keeping it in mind when seeing it in those nice, neat little package are two different things. Humans are amazingly adept at compartmentalizing. Most simply don't equate that nice looking T-bone with a living cow, whether it's living in luxury or misery. We haven't butchered yet, but I suspect I won't have too much trouble. I know my buns will live the good life and 12 weeks or so of that seems better to me than years of misery. I also believe that caring for them and then taking the responsibility to turn them into something that will in turn sustain life shows a profound respect for them and all life. I will, of course, be at pains not to turn the bred-for-food kits into pets and will lavish the breeding stock with all the affection

And you're right Sky. Life is a compromise for most of us...we choose to do what we can and have to simply let the rest go. I think having discussions like this is very helpful to be able to see things from others' points of view. As long as we all remain civil and don't try to "convert" others to our own way of thinking, it's a wonderful exchange. I see expressions of ideas here that would never have occurred to me, so thank you all. Having new food for thought is always a good thing.

 

[skysthelimit]

honestly people dont even know anything about the way plants grow so in my opinion this goes for eating veggies as well. i mean honestly how many adults dont know that a pickle is made from a cucumber and not its own veggie? how namy people dont know that peanuts and potatoes and garlic and onions grow in the ground? that those little carrots just magically appear in cute little clean sticks in a bag on the grocery store shelves?


it really makes me sick that society has come to this. sorta makes me wish there would be a SHTF something happen and send us all back to the real world taking care of ourselves and our society. and actually knowing how the world works.


:shock: wow.... skysthelimit just shocked me... i find it very curious that you raise them and butcher them, only to feed them only to the dogs... lol well more for the dogs then
personally i'm the exact opposite. i want my veggies from a garden with fresh air and manure! i want animals that i saw them live happy, healthy lives for me to eat!
i get downright argumentative and defensive during conversations like this... so i will try to hold myself in check


skysthelimit, ever think of growing in a hydroponics system? you can enclose it so no bugs and you can grow year round. downside is you have to buy the nutrient additives to put in the water for the plants to use to grow and i'm not sure how pollination would go without any bugs let in, probably have to be out with a paintbrush playing bee.

at least you know how it all goes though. most people turn a blind eye and just argue stupidly with people who eat their own meat, etc.

People learn what they need to learn to survive. Agriculture has long been a thing of the past for most of the Northern part of this country, thanks to the industrial age. People live in apartments, no yards. The most interaction they get with the pure Earth is walking on an unpaved tree lawn. No one needs to learn to sew to get clothing, to care for a horse or hitch a wagon, you don't even need good knot tying skills (thanks to velcro). I've only seen a horse three times in my life, never rode, have only seen cows close up once, I have never hunted, never fired a gun. I could have gone my whole life without ever seeing a real chicken, if it was not for the dogs and the sheep herding instructor that had chickens. I know my students haven't seen farm animals up close. They've never even met a real animal besides dogs and cats. Schools certainly don't teach anything like that. We don't even teach animal sounds in school anymore. I wonder how much of that is pervasive AR doing? Families are not families anymore, no one to share those skills with. In my culture, Grannies aren't baking cookies, they are out clubbing, trying to get a man to hook up with. Grannies are 35 year olds. They have none of those skills to pass along. I can't expect them to have them either. The world is just different. Not better, but different.

As far as hydroponics, where would I put that system in my tiny house? I couldn't even get the fodder to sprout in the house. Putting it outside would mean it would be frozen 5 mos out of the year. Space and cost prohibiting, I would never be able to grow anything substantial enough to make it worth my while, I would only be toying at something. Even now I'm just toying at gardening, It's something I enjoy, with out really expecting to be able to use anything I grow. I will never have enough land to grow animals or food to sustain my needs, and neither would most Americans, even if they had to, even if they knew how. It's so very unrealistic to most.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

And you're right Sky. Life is a compromise for most of us...we choose to do what we can and have to simply let the rest go. I think having discussions like this is very helpful to be able to see things from others' points of view. As long as we all remain civil and don't try to "convert" others to our own way of thinking, it's a wonderful exchange. I see expressions of ideas here that would never have occurred to me, so thank you all. Having new food for thought is always a good thing.

:yeahthat: :goodpost:

 

[skysthelimit]

I think having discussions like this is very helpful to be able to see things from others' points of view. As long as we all remain civil and don't try to "convert" others to our own way of thinking, it's a wonderful exchange. I see expressions of ideas here that would never have occurred to me, so thank you all. Having new food for thought is always a good thing.

I always find it so interesting. I live in a world of convenience, right now, cookie cutter same way, need results. I am very well aware that this is not the only or the best way to live. I just can't see how I have any other choice. I am stuck. And I find that there are so many people who feel that way as well. Stuck in the system. I can't live without the system. In small increments, I have managed with some sacrifice of time and effort, to get my dogs out of the bag it eat it world. But I can't do that for my rabbits or myself, no matter how hard I try, without extending myself too far. And even as I spend my last hour before bed typing, with my breaded fish in the toaster oven, I've had no time today to spin or crochet. No time to do anything other than go to work and feed my fuzzies and nuke some food. Sometimes I wish the world would slow down so I could get off this ride. So my food is the least of my worries. But I also know that there are several problems I am having because of what's in the food. But I cannot become a vegetarian or a vegan because I could never get what I need that way.

I find the way that a lot (well it seems that way) of people on this forum are living, very appealing. You have freedoms to do things I never will be able to, and that allows you to make more conscientious choices about the things you do. It seems so simple to you, so practical, so harmonious. But for me it's just a dream.

 

[rawfeeder]

Really interesting thread I raise meat rabbits for my dogs and other raw feeders. I would LOVE to eventually be able to eat it myself (healthier, happy meat and all that jazz) ....but something in my mentaility is stopping me. I've never liked death, and once any of my pets die for some reason I can't touch them (I usually find them in rigor, and the hardness really bugs me).

Thankfully my fiance does the butchering, and I don't watch. The first rabbit he did got my adrenaline running and I actually ran back into the room to tell him to stop and that I'd changed my mind... but it was already done. I couldn't touch the dead rabbit, so got him to throw it to the dog. I watched the dog eat it, no problem... even prodded it with a stick the next day (lol). Second rabbit, same deal. That rabbit was much smaller and bled a lot (we butcher inside) ..I ended up cleaning clots of blood off the floor and walls. Third rabbit was my beloved buck (He has an unidentified lump on his leg, and I'd just purchased a better quality buck). I didn't watch the dispatching, but I touched him just after he had died and he was still warm and floppy - so wasn't traumatic as I'd been thinking. I even watched as my fiance perform a necropsy of sorts on his lump (was just an abscess). We removed that leg and fed to the dogs. Fourth rabbit was a smaller rabbit again, I WATCHED the dispatching ...he convulsed quite a bit afterwards but it was a quick death and didn't bother me as much as I'd thought.

I don't think I'll ever do the dispatching, as my fiance was a prof baseball player and thus has a killer swing (excuse the pun)... but I'm hoping to build myself up to be able to handle the dead rabbits and one day dress them out. My dog doesn't eat the pelts so I'd like to skin them and possibly tan the hides. Also working myself up to try rabbit one day. Slow progress, but I hope I can get there

Oh and I have no problems handling raw meat from the grocery store. I'd just like to move away from that to be healthy and not support the cruelty of todays meat industry!

 

[TerriG]

I wasn't sure how I would handle raising our own meat. I was on a dairy farm until I was 4. I am not stranger to where our food comes from. I have always gardened. I had never eaten something (other than fish) that I saw alive.

It is a struggle for me. I actually get nauseous when I eat our rabbits. That is what we breed them for. That is why we raise them. I know that on a logical level, but have a hard time not seeing them as those cute babies that I raised. I am working on that though. I know it is healthier for us.

Until a few years ago, I couldn't handle raw meat. I couldn't break down anything that resembled an animal. I could handle the flash frozen chicken tenderlions. I could handle ground beef or steaks. This is something I have worked on. I now regularly rotisserie chicken fryers on my own (used to be dh's job).

When we dispatched our first set of rabbits, I pushed myself to quarter and trim the rabbits. I walked dh through the first one (I was on the computer looking up the info). Then I told him I wanted to do one. He was surprised. I hate the sound and feeling of bones breaking/cracking, but I knew it was another step I needed to take.

I have not dispatched yet. I have not skinned or cleaned yet. I will though. I want to have the skills to take them from cage to table. That is afterall why we are doing this.