Kits are getting older ...

[TerriG]

Thought I had this figured out and now the new litter threw a wrench in it. I don't understand how I am getting some of the colors I am. Maybe you guys can figure it out.

Wheezy (doe) is a Chestnut Agouti.
Cookie (doe) is a Chestnut Agouti.
Fern (doe) is a Black Tort.
Ruby (doe) is a Palomino.
Thumper (buck) is a Palomino.
Shadow (buck) is Black.

I bred Wheezy and Thumper and got Chin, Marten, Frosty, and Fawn.
I bred Fern and Thumper and got Blue Point, Fawn, Fawn Pointed, Blue Tort.
I bred Cookie and Shadow and got Chestnut Agouti, Fawn, and an Agouti that was a grayer (blue) color but not chin.

Based on these results, we had Wheezy as 'Aat' (to account for the Marten), Thumper as 'Aa', Fern as 'aa', Cookie as 'A_', and Shadow as 'aa'.

Then I bred Wheezy and Shadow and got Chin, Chestnut Agouti, Tort, and Black.

We can't get these colors if Wheezy carries 'Aat'. It would have to be 'Aa'. But if Thumper carries 'Aat' how do we explain the kits with Fern?

I bred Ruby and Thumper and got Palomino and some kind of white (they are only 7 days old).



Shadow comes from a black satin line, but he is not satin. I think the black kits that we just got from Wheezy+Shadow *may* be satin. They are *SO* shiny! Is this something that both the dam and sire have to carry for a kit to get it?

 

[Dood]

Satin is recessive so both parents must carry the gene.

You should not be getting torts and martens from Wheezy, the only thing I can think if is maybe the tort is not a tort or the marten not a marten.

 

[TerriG]

The tort is only a week old, so it is still a possibility that it won't be a torte.

The Marten is 10 weeks old. Pretty sure I identified it correctly.

__________ Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:04 am __________

Here's pictures I just snapped of our current litters. Not great since I didn't bring them inside. They were all wiggling trying to get back into the bedding.

This is Wheezy's litter (7 - chin, agouti, black, and tort)

This is Ruby's (6 - white and palominos) + the 3 she is fostering for Wheezy (the dark ones - chin, agouti, and black)

Black (satin?)

edited to correct link

 

[Dood]

Yes, there really isn't anything else that looks like marten. Hopefully the tort is a steel or something else instead.

 

[TerriG]

The tort in Wheezy's litter is looking a lot like the tort in Fern's litter. Originally, you (Dood) had thought that it was a Blue Tort Otter, but we decided it was just a Blue Tort since we thought it was Wheezy that carried the 'at'. This is that kit again.

So if it is a Blue Tort Otter, would that explain things?

 

[Dood]

Yes, a tort otter would sort things out (at a & e e) As would a very 'smutty' fawn (A _ & e e)

The people who breed red, orange, fawn and cream would be better at judging what the kit is.

 

[skysthelimit]

Wheezy (doe) is a Chestnut Agouti. A_B_C_D_E_
Cookie (doe) is a Chestnut Agouti.A_B_C_D_E_
Fern (doe) is a Black Tort. aaB_C_D_ee
Ruby (doe) is a Palomino. A_ bb C_dd ee
Thumper (buck) is a Palomino. A_ bb C_dd ee (gold)
Shadow (buck) is Black. aa_B_C_D_E_

Wheezy A_B_C_D_E
and Thumper A_ bb C_dd ee

A_B_c(chd)_D_E_Chin,
at_B_c(chd)_D_E_Marten,
A_B_ c(chd)_ D_ee Frosty,
A_B_C_dd_ee Fawn.


Fern aaB_C_D_ee
and Thumper A_ bb C_dd ee

A_B_C_dd_ee Fawn.
aa_B_c(h)_ddE_ Blue Point,
Fawn Pointed, You cannot get fawn pointed because fawn is a full color gene, it requires C on the locus, which is dominant to the himi (pointed) gene.
aaB_C_dd_ee Blue Tort .


Cookie A_B_C_D_E_
and Shadow aa_B_C_D_E_

A_B_C_D_E_ Chestnut Agouti,
A_B_C_dd_ee Fawn,
A_B_C_D_E_ Agouti that was a grayer (blue) color but not chin. (Opal, dilute agouti, blue agouti)

Based on these results, we had Wheezy as 'Aat' (to account for the Marten), Thumper as 'Aa', Fern as 'aa', Cookie as 'A_', and Shadow as 'aa'.


Wheezy A_B_C_D_E
and Shadow aa_B_C_D_E_


A_B_c(chd)_D_E_ Chin,
A_B_C_D_E Chestnut Agouti,
aaB_C_D_ee Tort, and
aa_B_C_D_E_ Black.

We can't get these colors if Wheezy carries 'Aat'. It would have to be 'Aa'. But if Thumper carries 'Aat' how do we explain the kits with Fern?

I need to have some tea first. Then I need a piece of physical paper to tell you all of the extra genes to you would need to make the colors you wee, or to be able to tell you what color combos you should get if the genotypes for the parents are correct.

 

[siddsaysgimmie]

That last kit definitely looks to be tort otter. I see distinctive tort shading and the otter lacing on it.

 

[Dood]

Yes, the light hairs around the eyes are very un tort like. Thank goodness! Problem solved!

 

[skysthelimit]

Yep, tort otter is def. the key to this mystery. I need more cold meds.

 

[TerriG]

I'm going to have to sit down and digest what you wrote Sky. I'll have to post some pictures of the kit that we are calling pointed fawn. Could it be a Tort with really light body markings?

__________ Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:44 pm __________

So I took a closer look at this older litter when I was out doing evening chores. I hadn't noticed the creamy color around the eyes and under their chins before. So it seems like they are Tort Otters.

Sky, you have my Palominos as 'bb'. I thought they were 'B_'. Can you explain to me?<br /><br />__________ Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:51 pm __________<br /><br />Fern aaB_C_D_ee
and Thumper A_ bb C_dd ee

A_B_C_dd_ee Fawn.
aa_B_c(h)_ddE_ Blue Point,
Fawn Pointed, You cannot get fawn pointed because fawn is a full color gene, it requires C on the locus, which is dominant to the himi (pointed) gene.
aaB_C_dd_ee Blue Tort .

So we now know that Thumper is Aat, so there is still a problem with the Blue Point. So I'm thinking mis-identification again? She has med blue/gray eyes.

 

[siddsaysgimmie]

Could that last one be a frosty/ermine/frosted pearl? Maybe a dilute one?

 

[Dood]

No problem. There is confusion with the terms used. Your kit has genotype 'aa B- cchl - dd ee' and is a blue point AKA blue shaded AKA blue sable point. You do not have any Himalayan genes (yet) and just to confuse people the blue pointed himalayan (with red eyes) is also commonly called 'blue point'.

If the kit is smoke pearl marten ( at a B- cchl- dd E- ) but with non extension (ee) I don't know what the effect would be.

Please post a picture of the 'pointed fawn'. You cannot have fawn points because fawn needs an agouti to turn black to chestnut/red/orange/cream/fawn and would make a shaded kit look chinchilla or sable agouti.

Well bred fawns usually have the blue dilution to get a nice clear colour without 'smut' but any rabbit that is A_, C_ and ee (non-extension) will be red/orange/cream/fawn-ish in colour

 

[TerriG]

But Thumper is 'Aat' and Fern is 'aa', so how could we get an 'aa'? We can only get an 'Aa' or and 'ata'.

I'll see if I can get some better pics of kits today. It is just so stinking cold right now.

 

[skysthelimit]

I can explain it as lack of cold meds

__________ Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:56 am __________

Palomino as a breed color is lyxn and gold. Lyxn is a chocolate based color, and the gold is the dilute, so bb. If they are true Pals, then they would be bb. Now just because they look palomino color does not make them Palominos, so that color could just be red.

Terminology is not universal across all rabbits. When you say pointed, you are speaking of the himi gene, as Dood pointed out.

When you cross colors outside of the color rules, sometimes you get colors that none of us will be able to categorize as well, and they will be behave in unpredictable ways. A bit like uncharted waters.

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

The black may be a seal just to make things more complicated...

 

[OneAcreFarm]

Could the Marten not be an Otter? He looks like a Black Otter to me...

 

[TerriG]

I thought the difference was the Marten has white, where the Otter has tan?

 

[OneAcreFarm]

I thought the difference was the Marten has white, where the Otter has tan?

Could be...I don't have either so I am not familiar enough with them to know...just asking questions...

 

[TerriG]

I thought the difference was the Marten has white, where the Otter has tan?

Could be...I don't have either so I am not familiar enough with them to know...just asking questions...

Me too

__________ Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:14 am __________

Ok, here's some new pics. They aren't the greatest. It was 12 F in the rabbitry. The rabbits weren't very cooperative and my fingers were c.o.l.d.

These are the 5 week old kits from Fern and Thumper:

This is the one with lighter Tort markings

This is the one with darker Tort markings (by darker, I mean easier to see, not faint)

This one is mainly a redder fawn with a little bit of pointing

This is the one we have been calling Blue Point. She has color on her nose, her ears, the top side of her tail, and a bit on her feet.

These are 5 week old kits from Cookie and Shadow:

Here is the ? (fawn? but much redder than my golden palominos)

Here are the Chestnut Agoutis

This is the grayer Agouti that I was talking about

Here are the 3 colors together so you can see the difference in colors

This is the week old Tort from Wheezy and Shadow:

<br /><br />__________ Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:17 am __________<br /><br />I will need to get a better picture of the fawn? kit from Fern and Thumper. I need to get a body shot.