skysthelimit
Well-known member
TerriG":cpvpzcw7 said:
both are still at_ tan patterned rabbits.
Kits are getting older ...
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both are still at_ tan patterned rabbits.
I think your torts (aa & ee) are not torts but otter torts( ata & ee) or very smutty fawns ( A_, C_ & ee).
I call anything with the (A_ , C_ & ee) fawn because the shades of red/orange/fawn/cream you get vary depending on all the other genes and I am not even considering the wideband W-locus or Rufus modifiers that could all be playing here!
Palomino is a colour and a breed, since you are raising meat mutts and have yet to cross a purebred Palomino to another Palomino, I assume the kits you call palomino look like your Palominos more than others.
I don't understand the question you have with the marten kit, please clarify your confusion.
Please post a picture of the 'pointed fawn'
I call anything with the (A_ , C_ & ee) fawn because the shades of red/orange/fawn/cream you get vary depending on all the other genes and I am not even considering the wideband W-locus or Rufus modifiers that could all be playing here!
Palomino is a colour and a breed, since you are raising meat mutts and have yet to cross a purebred Palomino to another Palomino, I assume the kits you call palomino look like your Palominos more than others.
I don't understand the question you have with the marten kit, please clarify your confusion.
Please post a picture of the 'pointed fawn'
skysthelimit
Well-known member
Not all chestnut agoutis are created equal. They are particularly hard to get consistent, some of my castors are much grayer than others, and I've even had them without the black ticking, and rings in the wrong order.
TerriG
Well-known member
Thumper and Ruby are both Palominos. I don't have their pedigree b/c the breeder colony raises and doesn't keep that close track, so I don't truly know if they are purebred. I do have a litter from these 2 in the nest box right now. There are 3 Pals and 3 white kits. They look the same as the Blue Point kit from Fern and Thumper. They are all white, but you can see a tan color when you look back against their fur. Like this:
That is the Blue Point at a slightly older age than the current kits, but I see the same coloring. She didn't develop her points right away. This is her at about a week old.
Fern is from the Palomino side of the breeder's lines. Not sure why she's a Tort. Something popped up from somewhere back in the line.
I don't have a question with the Marten kit. The question was asked if it could be a Black Otter rather than a Marten. I was saying that I thought the difference was the color of the nose lines and chin. The Marten kit has white in those areas, so it is a Marten, not an Otter. At least that's what I understand.
Ok, if they are Tort Otters 'ata' that makes sense.
That is the Blue Point at a slightly older age than the current kits, but I see the same coloring. She didn't develop her points right away. This is her at about a week old.
Fern is from the Palomino side of the breeder's lines. Not sure why she's a Tort. Something popped up from somewhere back in the line.
I don't have a question with the Marten kit. The question was asked if it could be a Black Otter rather than a Marten. I was saying that I thought the difference was the color of the nose lines and chin. The Marten kit has white in those areas, so it is a Marten, not an Otter. At least that's what I understand.
Ok, if they are Tort Otters 'ata' that makes sense.
TerriG
Well-known member
So we solved the Otter mystery (Wheezy 'Aa' and Thumper 'Aat'). But I am still confused with that Blue Pointed kit. Let me see if I can get this straight. Please correct me if I am wrong on any of these points.
Thumper is 'Aat' and Fern is 'aa'. I was told the pointed kit was an 'aa'. Either that Thumper gives with be dominate over what Fern gives (on the 'A' allele). We could get an 'Aa' or and 'ata'. The 'Aa' would be agouti marked of some king. The 'ata' would be otter marked or some kind. This leads me to believe that she can't be a Blue Point, but has to be something else.
My kids want to keep her as a breeder, so understanding what she is is more important in this kit's case. Thank you so much for all your help.
Thumper is 'Aat' and Fern is 'aa'. I was told the pointed kit was an 'aa'. Either that Thumper gives with be dominate over what Fern gives (on the 'A' allele). We could get an 'Aa' or and 'ata'. The 'Aa' would be agouti marked of some king. The 'ata' would be otter marked or some kind. This leads me to believe that she can't be a Blue Point, but has to be something else.
My kids want to keep her as a breeder, so understanding what she is is more important in this kit's case. Thank you so much for all your help.
I didn't know Thumper and Ruby were supposedly pure Palomino ( the breed and not just the colour) but unfortunately the fact that you didn't get a nest full of Palominos from the cross but 50% ?shaded? confirms they are not very purebred.
As for the agouti, they could be chocolate or blue(more likely since you have a blue point) or a steel. If the eyes are lighter than they should be I would suspect a dilution rather than steel (Es_) at work.
The blue point is definitely shaded. The non extension (ee) and shaded genes (cch_) are dominant over the marten gene (at_) and basically hide it, so the genotype is 'at a B_ cch_ dd ee' and she carries the marten. Test breed it to your black buck in 6 months and you should get a bunch of martens in the nestbox
As for the agouti, they could be chocolate or blue(more likely since you have a blue point) or a steel. If the eyes are lighter than they should be I would suspect a dilution rather than steel (Es_) at work.
The blue point is definitely shaded. The non extension (ee) and shaded genes (cch_) are dominant over the marten gene (at_) and basically hide it, so the genotype is 'at a B_ cch_ dd ee' and she carries the marten. Test breed it to your black buck in 6 months and you should get a bunch of martens in the nestbox
TerriG
Well-known member
Thank you Dood! That was exactly what I wasn't understanding. I didn't realize that those were dominant over it. Sheesh. The more I learn, the more I find out I don't understand.<br /><br />__________ Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:28 pm __________<br /><br />On the 'C' allele, I have Thumper down as a Ccchl since he sired a frosty in a litter with Wheezy. Does that factor in on these shaded kits?
Yes, and Ruby must be C with any of the following - cch, ch or c to get the shaded kits. If they have red eyes and dark points then Ruby is 'C ch' and the kits are cali marked. If they have red eyes and no points then she is 'C c' and the kits are REW and if they have normal (brown amber or grey) eyes Ruby is 'C cch' and the kits are shaded.
TerriG
Well-known member
Thank you so much. We'll wait and see. Eyes should be opening this next week.
__________ Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:11 pm __________
My daughter (15) asked me a couple of questions that I couldn't answer. You already covered what to expect if we breed the Blue Point doe to Shadow, but what about Thumper? Also, that darker Tort Otter doe is a favorite. What would we expect to get out of her if we bred her to Shadow? To Thumper?
Thank you so much! I truly appreciate all the help.
__________ Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:11 pm __________
My daughter (15) asked me a couple of questions that I couldn't answer. You already covered what to expect if we breed the Blue Point doe to Shadow, but what about Thumper? Also, that darker Tort Otter doe is a favorite. What would we expect to get out of her if we bred her to Shadow? To Thumper?
Thank you so much! I truly appreciate all the help.
skysthelimit
Well-known member
The A locus is labeled as the A locus because it is dominant over all colors, with some exception (c REW) in the E locus, being co-dominant so the the E genes act on the A genes, but do not mask them. Non extension is not dominant over otter or else you could not get tort otter, you would just get tort ee. They are co dominant, which is how you can have both markings on one rabbit. You cannot mask agouti or tan, if you carry, and inherit it, you display it. Only agouti A can mask otter at. Martin is a chin based otter, so it carries the shaded gene.
__________ Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:20 pm __________
Chocolate chestnut is not a lighter chestnut, it would have chocolate tipping and ear lacing, and the eyes might have a ruby cast. The amount of rufus and tipping an agouti has is independent of it's base color.
__________ Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:20 pm __________
Chocolate chestnut is not a lighter chestnut, it would have chocolate tipping and ear lacing, and the eyes might have a ruby cast. The amount of rufus and tipping an agouti has is independent of it's base color.
Marten (and otter and tan) is an A-locus gene 'at_'.
Your blue point kit would be a "smoke pearl marten" (AKA blue sable marten) except he is also non-extension and is a "blue sable point marten" and looks like a blue sable point. Telling the two colours apart is next to impossible but it's the only answers given your genes.
Your tort otter (ata & ee) will have black and a marten or otter or tan coloured kits when bred to the black (aa) buck depending on their other genes, as well as other colours.
The non extension and shaded don't literally dominate the 'at' but you don't get the full marten or otter effect so it is very hard to see it in the offspring, which is why a lot of these multiple recessive colours are not showable.
Your blue point kit would be a "smoke pearl marten" (AKA blue sable marten) except he is also non-extension and is a "blue sable point marten" and looks like a blue sable point. Telling the two colours apart is next to impossible but it's the only answers given your genes.
Your tort otter (ata & ee) will have black and a marten or otter or tan coloured kits when bred to the black (aa) buck depending on their other genes, as well as other colours.
The non extension and shaded don't literally dominate the 'at' but you don't get the full marten or otter effect so it is very hard to see it in the offspring, which is why a lot of these multiple recessive colours are not showable.
skysthelimit
Well-known member
There must be a discrepancy in terminology. Marten is the chin gene acting on otter, co-dominance. If the rabbit is any kind of marten that is the chin gene. The chin gene contains chin and all shaded series genes.
Sable aa cchl_
Sable Chinchilla A_B_cchl_D_E_
Sable Martin at_ cchl_
Sable Point aa cchl_ ee
Seal aa cchl cchl
Silver Martin- Black at_ cchd_
Silver Martin-Blue at_ cchd_dd
Silver Martin-Choc. at_bb cchd_
Silver Martin-Lilac at_bb cchd_dd
Smoke Pearl/Siamese aa cchl_ dd
Smoke
PearlMartin at_cchl_dd
Sable aa cchl_
Sable Chinchilla A_B_cchl_D_E_
Sable Martin at_ cchl_
Sable Point aa cchl_ ee
Seal aa cchl cchl
Silver Martin- Black at_ cchd_
Silver Martin-Blue at_ cchd_dd
Silver Martin-Choc. at_bb cchd_
Silver Martin-Lilac at_bb cchd_dd
Smoke Pearl/Siamese aa cchl_ dd
Smoke
PearlMartin at_cchl_dd
Yes, I see were I made a mistake. Martens have a shaded gene, either the light (cchl) or the dark(cchd) as well as the 'at_'.
TerriG
Well-known member
Wow! Lots of great information. Once I get this migraine knocked down (forgot to take my daily meds today 
), I will sit down and really go over this. Like I said, just when I think I am getting it, I find out how little I know.<br /><br />__________ Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:16 pm __________<br /><br />The older shaded kit's eyes are now almost brown. The 3 white ones (shaded) in the 3 weeks old kits have been coming in just like the older shaded ones. I noticed that one of them is creamy looking, not white. Same points and stuff. I will have to try to get some pics.
The black kits eyes aren't dark brown like the others kits (pals), but they look like they will end up being brown. They are so cute!
), I will sit down and really go over this. Like I said, just when I think I am getting it, I find out how little I know.<br /><br />__________ Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:16 pm __________<br /><br />The older shaded kit's eyes are now almost brown. The 3 white ones (shaded) in the 3 weeks old kits have been coming in just like the older shaded ones. I noticed that one of them is creamy looking, not white. Same points and stuff. I will have to try to get some pics.The black kits eyes aren't dark brown like the others kits (pals), but they look like they will end up being brown. They are so cute!
