Debate: Don't eat anything with a face

[Frecs]

Frecs :sorry: bless your heart, I'm sorry that happened to you and please don't take anything I said personally. I didn't mean it that way. I tried the diet myself but was just to hypoglycemic to be able to do it. I made it a month. My dad and stepmom swore by it but ultimately its just not for everyone. They were kinda harsh toward those of us who didn't want to switch to that diet. Sadly that didn't help an already strained relationship with my dad. You all know the deal, my stepmom was the younger other woman....
Anyway didn't mean to give the wrong idea.

Oh, no, girl! It's all good. I wasn't responding to anything you had said or implied. I just didn't want anyone to think I was a former ARA or something!

__________ Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:45 am __________

Based on the information Ive gotten, veganism is used to prevent animal suffering. Ie, factory anything. So majority of the vegans would eat farm milk, farm eggs, farm wool, etc. since the animals aren't hurt, and even a lactose intolerant person can drink raw goats milk, or raw cows milk (most of the time). My friend is a vegan, and she does own ducks and such, but she doesn't eat eggs period - I think she either hatches most of the eggs, or eggs in general make her sick. Honestly, she's such a sweet hearted person, but I wish she'd eat meat she's always sick, and I think if she ate meat she'd feel better. But she's so sweet she couldn't harm a fly. I think it's cause she doesn't eat enough beans and such. But she's been feeling better lately, so lets hope it stays that way.
That said, I've seen a couple vegans who own chickens and feed they're eggs back to they're chickens 'because I don't want them to have a job'. Uh, ok.

Point of clarification:

Vegan: will not eat, wear, or other use anything that came from or was produced by an animal. No meat, fish, dairy, leather, wool, fats, etc.

Vegetarian: several "varieties" but generally will wear/use products produced by animals including eggs and milk but will not eat meat.<br /><br />__________ Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:02 am __________<br /><br />

I just have to ask... what happen to you .. that was viscous and vicious.. Only if you care to share.. or pm me

Well, the "viscous" part was just trying to be funny. The vicious part is true.

Okay, here is my story, short form:

I was morbidly obese and considering GB surgery. Someone suggested I try the raw vegan diet to lose weight before I went through the surgery. So I did. I started 100% raw vegan: no animal products and nothing cooked/heated over 118F. That meant that I could not even get protein from beans because beans have to be cooked, obviously...except for a few that can be sprouted (like lentils, garbanzos supposedly, and adzukis). Just lots of fruits and vegetables. The weight began dropping off --on average 12-15# per month. Plus, I found that my fibromyalgia went away, my rosacea cleared up, and I felt better than I had ever felt in my life. At the 9-month point I was going on multi-day mountain hiking trips! I was ready to stick to the diet the rest of my life I felt so good.

Then, my legs started to swell...enough to scare me. I went to the doctor and he discovered that I was dumping albumin in my urine. He expressed great concern and demanded that I start eating meat. At first, I wanted to try using protein powders or something. That helped the leg swelling but doc was still not very happy--he understood the weight loss and desire to keep it off but he didn't like what he was seeing overall. Well, then, inexplicably, the weight started coming on in 10# increments--literally overnight. I was still on the diet (except with more protein) and still exercising 1 hour or more per day 6 days a week. It was during the process of trying to stop this unexplainable process that it was found that I was deficient in multiple nutrients that bloodwork would show and probably others that weren't tested for...clearly my biochemistry was in major mess.

I went off the diet, and started supplementing to bring my nutrients up. The weight continued to come back in defiance of all laws of calories in/calories out. Doctors won't believe me that I'm not eating excessively so I'm fighting this pretty much on my own.

My endocrine system is still in a shambles. I still fight to keep certain levels up (zinc, magnesium, and D).

Can some people be raw vegan for decades and be fine? sure...there are a few dozen that claim just that. But...are they really or are they just not to the crisis point yet?

 

[AmysMacdog]

Oh Frecs! I'm so glad you are better! Hope you can get your Endocrine system back in order.
I know how that feels. I was diagnosed with Fibromyalgia in '93. DD was born in '91. Thank God for my mother!!!
Anyway prayers for continued healing sent your way and I'm so relieved I didn't upset you!! [HUGS]

 

[Random Rabbit]

I read a commentary by Joel Salatin After that "debate". ( of course i cannot find the link ) He was dissecting what went on. He believes that both he and the other person on the Pro meat side were treating it AS a debate...Point made...point refuted...point argued. Back and forth. The anti meat side simply interrupted at will... kept saying the Same things over and over... Took way More of the allotted time and pretty much shut him off.

So sad as he is quite articulate !

 

[Truckinguy]

I"m no expert but from what I've read (I read A LOT, books, online, talk to people) I know our bodies are absolute Masters at processing NATURAL foods provided we get enough liquids and fiber to keep it all moving. Our livers and kidneys are Nature's miracle processors that are actually capable of taking many toxic chemicals and changing them into harmless substances that are ready to be expelled from the body. However, they are not able to properly process many of the new chemicals that are in our foods today.

We have a couple of problems with today's diet, one of which is volume. We here in North America (and other countries but I'll stick to NA for the purpose of making my point) take in WAYYY to much volume and calories than we need. The other is our palate which has been manipulated by the food industry to now require excessively tasty food which is made extremely tasty by salt and chemicals. I used to deliver to companies who made flavors. Really, you have to make a flavor?? I shudder to think of the concoction of chemicals they used to create whatever tastes they were selling. Nature has already provided us with a wide range of delicious foods that are healthy and satisfying. Unfortunately, food companies have to have a tastier product than the next company so they have a competitive advantage.

 

[Cottie]

I"m no expert but from what I've read (I read A LOT, books, online, talk to people) I know our bodies are absolute Masters at processing NATURAL foods provided we get enough liquids and fiber to keep it all moving. Our livers and kidneys are Nature's miracle processors that are actually capable of taking many toxic chemicals and changing them into harmless substances that are ready to be expelled from the body. However, they are not able to properly process many of the new chemicals that are in our foods today.

We have a couple of problems with today's diet, one of which is volume. We here in North America (and other countries but I'll stick to NA for the purpose of making my point) take in WAYYY to much volume and calories than we need. The other is our palate which has been manipulated by the food industry to now require excessively tasty food which is made extremely tasty by salt and chemicals. I used to deliver to companies who made flavors. Really, you have to make a flavor?? I shudder to think of the concoction of chemicals they used to create whatever tastes they were selling. Nature has already provided us with a wide range of delicious foods that are healthy and satisfying. Unfortunately, food companies have to have a tastier product than the next company so they have a competitive advantage.

I agree with everything you wrote but the bolded part.

There was a starvation study done in the 1940s by Ancel Keys. Starvation levels were defined between 1500 and 1600 calories per day, which is the currently recommended level for dieting. A standard diet was 3,200 calories per day, which is approximately 1,200 more than what is currently recommended as a "healthy" diet. In 2000, the average man consumed just over 2,600 calories per day (200 more than in 1971, but 600 less than considered standard in 1945).

In Good Calories, Bad Calories, Gary Taubes tackles this issue in depth. The fundamental problems with the caloric measuring model are:
A) We are actually eating fewer calories than we did historically, aside from a brief period of governmental tracking that occurred after fad dieting became posh.
B) The variance in the calories requires such a delicate balance within our body that it suggests we are machines that cannot self-regulate.

This is particularly important because "calories in, calories out" suggests you can lose 10 pounds in a year by removing 4-5 ounces of soda per day (hence we have 8 ounce baby soda cans in addition to 12 ouncers). Yet clinical studies have shown the obese can maintain their weights during such slight caloric deprivation. The delicate balance that is implied by the "small-steps" mindset simply doesn't hold water. Our bodies are excellent at self-regulating muscle mass, fat stores and excess energy during caloric excess when they function properly. The BBC published an interesting documentary on this phenomena a few years ago, called "Why Aren't Thin People Fat?".

All that being said...this is precisely why the vegetarian/vegan arguments don't hold water. They assume it is the removal of meat/reduction in calories that is improving the outcomes, rather than examining the possibility that it's the return to wholly natural foods. Of course someone who eats nothing but boxed dinners and candy bars will improve in health if they switch to a vegetarian diet with fewer calories. That same person would also improve in health on a higher-calorie Paleo (or even strictly carnivorous) diet, because it's lacking all the processed, pre-digested garbage that breaks the endocrine system.<br /><br />__________ Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:37 am __________<br /><br />

Then, my legs started to swell...enough to scare me. I went to the doctor and he discovered that I was dumping albumin in my urine. He expressed great concern and demanded that I start eating meat. At first, I wanted to try using protein powders or something. That helped the leg swelling but doc was still not very happy--he understood the weight loss and desire to keep it off but he didn't like what he was seeing overall. Well, then, inexplicably, the weight started coming on in 10# increments--literally overnight. I was still on the diet (except with more protein) and still exercising 1 hour or more per day 6 days a week. It was during the process of trying to stop this unexplainable process that it was found that I was deficient in multiple nutrients that bloodwork would show and probably others that weren't tested for...clearly my biochemistry was in major mess.

I'm so sorry. That's probably where I would have ended up had I stayed vegetarian, but I never got that period of "feeling good". I felt better for about a month, then started to feel sluggish and ill.

I hope you recover soon!

 

[Frecs]

I'm so sorry. That's probably where I would have ended up had I stayed vegetarian, but I never got that period of "feeling good". I felt better for about a month, then started to feel sluggish and ill.

I hope you recover soon!

Thanks. It would be easier if I had a professional to help me. Trying to do it on my own is just...hard..on so many levels. As much as I *know* and have *learned* there is a tremendous amount that I *don't* know or understand about what is going on with my biochemistry. sigh...

 

[LilacGal]

I'm not a fan of veganism, it just seems wrong to me. But maybe that's because I'm selfish and won't give up my steak, chicken, rabbit, or pork. I do have a friend that goes on these raw vegan kicks, usually lasts a few months and then she's craving meat. I tell her that's her bodies SOS signal and she should just concentrate on being a healthy omnivore. She's always complaining she feels anixous, and that her and the kids get sick too often. When I point out the correlation she say's "but I never feel better then I do when I'm doing raw vegan" (sigh)

 

[Frecs]

When I point out the correlation she say's "but I never feel better then I do when I'm doing raw vegan" (sigh)

That's because in the short term, she is basically doing a cleansing diet -- a Daniel Fast essentially. But, you are right, her body reaches a point it starts to scream for protein.

Has she tried Paleo or WAPF/Nourishing Traditions? I'd go more toward the latter than the former but both eliminate the processed foods which is a huge improvement over SAD and massively better than raw vegan...

 

[Cottie]

When I point out the correlation she say's "but I never feel better then I do when I'm doing raw vegan" (sigh)

That's because in the short term, she is basically doing a cleansing diet -- a Daniel Fast essentially. But, you are right, her body reaches a point it starts to scream for protein.

Has she tried Paleo or WAPF/Nourishing Traditions? I'd go more toward the latter than the former but both eliminate the processed foods which is a huge improvement over SAD and massively better than raw vegan...

Paleo is really nothing more than WAPF for people who have problems with grains and/or dairy.

 

[LilacGal]

:wall: I've tried pointing those out, she says' she can't eat meat. That it makes her feel ill. So I don't mention it anymore. This went round for a year or more. Now I just say things like "well take care of yourself" and "call me if you need anything". And she does the Beach Body Cleanse and juicing cleanses on top of this. But she's an adult and living in another state so I can't really force her to do anything.
I don't have too much of a leg to stand on about healthy though as I'm a Mt Dew addict. I do try very hard to limit processed foods from our diets. We eat grains, fresh and frozen veggies, and meat from healthy sources. Next spring we're putting in a garden so I can have really fresh veggies. I blame those Navy watches for my soda addiction. irate:

Her kids eat this way as well. Only they can eat eggs as well.

 

[dayna]

Here is where I fall in the "great debate".

You wanna be a vegan? Go for it.
You wanna be a vegetarian? Go for it.
You wanna be a pescatarian? Go for it. (I did that for a long time, and it was easy and healthy)
You wanna eat a balanced diet of fruits, nuts, grains, veg, meats, etc? Go for it.


The only think I feel very strongly about on any of these "diets" is that your food be as close to the earth as possible. And yes, I eat McDonalds and drink a coke! Sometimes. But the bulk of my diet is whole, natural, foods. I try to buy as much local as I can and raise as much of my own as I can.

 

[Zass]

I'm a pretty classic celiac that went undiagnosed for too long. It got to the point where I was scared to eat(the GI side effects were BAD) and you wouldn't believe how upset it made me to have people suggesting I had anorexia nervosa or a drug habit!!!

I was dropping weight consistently for over a year though, and I wasn't even heavy to begin with. With hypothyroidism no less.

The creepy part? I felt great and had tons more energy when I stopped eating!!! Because I didn't know what foods were hurting me, so long as my stomach was empty I felt 1000% better.

Well, it turns out that I have issues with dairy, beans, fatty foods, and almost all grains, not just the gluten containing ones, a damaged small intestine can't handle much, actually, raw veggies can be harsh.

Even a healthy vegetarian diet is REALLY tough with those kind of limitations, Vegetarians and vegans often overlook how very many people just can't eat that way, because their biology doesn't allow for it.
Then to go around claiming what humans are and aren't meant to eat...eh, it's kinda hurtful.

I still don't eat meat daily, but with high quality meat and homemade bone stock, I have gotten my weight back up to 125 lbs, with muscle for the first time ever! (thanks to my bunnies!)

But now I have issues with people who eat standard American diet not understanding me. To them I'm extra cruel for killing things myself (VS buying already killed things?) but the vegetarian friends understand me more! haha, lol, there is no pleasing everyone

 

[skysthelimit]

I love meat. Really.

I have a friend who is a vet. She has a bumper sticker that says "I love animals, they taste yummy".

At work I always had salads, meatless pasta or some kind of stir fry (there was meat the couldn't see it). Occasionally I've gone out with co workers, and I avoid dairy and eggs, and seldom order meat, they started thinking I was a veggie something(animal lover that I am). No it's just that I can't eat eggs or most dairy, and I don't really trust fast food, restaurants cooking meat.

Though I believe the recent outbreak of samonella came from raw spinach... Food is dangerous.

 

[DogCatMom]

... No it's just that I can't eat eggs or most dairy, and I don't really trust fast food, restaurants cooking meat.

Though I believe the recent outbreak of samonella came from raw spinach... Food is dangerous.

Just a small correction, and I believe we'll be on to what Joel Salatin started saying over twenty years ago:

Industrially produced food is dangerous.

 

[Frecs]

Though I believe the recent outbreak of samonella came from raw spinach... Food is dangerous.

Weeell...not necessarily...there is something rather rotten in Denmark in regards to how they determined that the spinach was the problem. But, having said that... if you saw the water that is used to "pre-wash" those bags of spinach, you'd wonder how we are not all sick most of the time.

 

[Zass]

... No it's just that I can't eat eggs or most dairy, and I don't really trust fast food, restaurants cooking meat.

Though I believe the recent outbreak of samonella came from raw spinach... Food is dangerous.

Just a small correction, and I believe we'll be on to what Joel Salatin started saying over twenty years ago:

Industrially produced food is dangerous.

:yeahthat:

I forage a lot of wild foods, and people LOVE telling me how dangerous and unclean wild foods are....seriously. :shock:

 

[Frecs]

Just a small correction, and I believe we'll be on to what Joel Salatin started saying over twenty years ago:

Industrially produced food is dangerous.

Indeed!

I like the "4 easy steps" to eating Pollan explains in "In Defense of Food":

1. Eat REAL Food.
2. Mostly plants.
3. As close to nature as possible.
4. not so much of it.

 

[LilacGal]

you know as I kid I never got sick eating wild berries or stuff right out of my grandmothers garden. Never got sick drinking raw cows milk either. But I've had some restaurant food try to kill me. Could be the # of hands touching it or could be the places they get it from. But I do believe we'd be a lot better off if we ate more like our great grandparents did. No yellow dye #5....

 

[Zass]

Just a small correction, and I believe we'll be on to what Joel Salatin started saying over twenty years ago:

Industrially produced food is dangerous.

Indeed!

I like the "4 easy steps" to eating Pollan explains in "In Defense of Food":

1. Eat REAL Food.
2. Mostly plants.
3. As close to nature as possible.
4. not so much of it.

It's HARD to overeat on very nutrient dense foods(most wild foods fall into this category, and it's as close to nature as one's likely to get).
I'm betting those raw vegan diets are also very nutrient dense.
The body simply doesn't want too much of it and one tends to feel satisfied with less.

 

[bobqdevon]