Could We Discuss Sneezing ?

[ladysown]

i second the "when in doubt cull" opinion.

I rarely get nestbox eye now. I rarely have issues with intestinal problems with rabbits.

Strict culling works well. Makes for a far healthier herd, cheaper to keep because you aren't medicating, and gives you more options for disposal of animals...aka... non-medicated animals can be eaten rather than merely tossed.

 

[fuzzy9]

The more we get into this, and the more we read, we are of the same belief as Ottersatin and ladysown. Being new at this, and a small rabbitry, we can't afford to lose half our breeding does if we want to meet our two year goals we have set. It makes more sense to lose one or two vs. many. After speaking with our vet at great length about this also, I am not at all thrilled about the dangers of residual that some of these antibiotics leave behind. I feed a raw rabbit meat diet to my kitties, they have very specific food needs, and it's very important to me to know that I am feeding a healthy safe food source to them.

As someone who buys outside animals as we build our herd, I am really learning all the questions that need to be asked before we make a purchase, and along with that, I would also hope those breeders who opt to keep and treat these rabbits medically, would make the proper disclosures when they offer them, or their offspring, for sale. It's an important fact about that rabbits history.

For us, one other point just doesn't make sense when it comes to the question of cull, or don't cull. To medically culture test a sneezing rabbit just doesn't seem cost effective in the big picture of things. We've paid around $20 - $25 for the rabbit, and to have the vet out, culture, then turn around and charge us $100 just doesn't seem to make financial sense. For us, it seems more logical to cull, and move on. I can see; however, where it would seem to be the best option for those who've paid much more for their rabbits, or for those who have rabbits as pets.

We've set up four quarantine pens in our garage, and if I detect anything that seems suspicious, that rabbit/rabbits gets pulled into one of those pens, and we make the decision from there.

 

[SatinsRule]

Maybe alleviating the symptoms allowed the rabbit to rest and eat more and therefore fight off the infection? Also some of those things have a mild antimicrobial function, so maybe a little germ killing, but I agree not a magic bullet effect.

Maybe the Nyquil effect? It helps them get their zzz's?

A lot of people on here have suggested that as a prey animal rabbits are prone to shock and if you can ease their discomfort they may pull thru where otherwise they wouldn't.

Exactly my viewpoint. Sometimes to beat an illness, you have to take medications or treatments which cater to the vital systems of a body's function, one of which is the respiratory system.

Case in point: When a person has the flu, one of the most critical factors involved in getting past it is the person's ability to get plenty of rest (it's just one factor, I know, but it is nonetheless critical). If that person cannot sleep for all the sinus congestion, fever, etc., guess what? They will not get better as readily as they would be able to by treating symptoms. In other words, by tending to a body's vital functions, you are allowing that specimen's system to fight off the infection and recover, and think about it. How many of us have bought a package of Benadryl or NyQuil to deal with a bout with blocked sinuses? I sure have, and it worked in alleviating the symptoms, allowing me to get more rest, and as I get plenty of rest, it passes in a relatively short period of time.

The same concept applies to animals. If the animal cannot breathe effectively, the symptoms will get progressively worse until it reaches a point of no return because as their breathing gets more and more difficult, the body's ability to fight off whatever it is that's causing it decreases. That is true whether you're talking about actual illnesses or casual allergies, which the more I think about it, may have been caused by the bermuda grass hay I brought home in late December on my trip from Kansas. The problems I was facing with all the nasal discharges on my rabbits seemed to go away rather rapidly around the same time that I removed the last of the hay from my barn, and they seemed to start about the same time that hay showed up. My bout may not have been with a classic case of "snuffles" but rather a common allergy spawned by mold spores and dust from the hay I brought home. However, many on here would have culled out these same animals to "be on the safe side", thinking it was a case of pasteurella when in fact it wasn't.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

Exactly my viewpoint. Sometimes to beat an illness, you have to take medications or treatments which cater to the vital systems of a body's function, one of which is the respiratory system.

Case in point: When a person has the flu, one of the most critical factors involved in getting past it is the person's ability to get plenty of rest (it's just one factor, I know, but it is nonetheless critical). If that person cannot sleep for all the sinus congestion, fever, etc., guess what? They will not get better as readily as they would be able to by treating symptoms. In other words, by tending to a body's vital functions, you are allowing that specimen's system to fight off the infection and recover, and think about it. How many of us have bought a package of Benadryl or NyQuil to deal with a bout with blocked sinuses? I sure have, and it worked in alleviating the symptoms, allowing me to get more rest, and as I get plenty of rest, it passes in a relatively short period of time.

The only problem I see with this analogy is that the flu is a virus and unless you treat it with antiviral meds, it won't go away and will eventually run its course. Treating the symptoms is helpful in dealing having the flu for sure, but it won't shorten the duration, it will only make it less bothersome. Same with a cold...like the old saying goes "how long does a cold last? 7 days if you treat it, a week if you don't." JMO...of course.

 

[ilovehome]

I bought a rabbit from a breeder who believes as SatinsRule does. She treats with VetRx, bag balm, and vitamin E. I know this because I put this rabbit in isolation for sneezing last week, and the breeder and I have been talking very openly about it. The rabbit appears to have improved substantially just like the breeder predicted. However, even if she continues to well and does not sneeze again, I still consider her a carrier right now. I do plan to keep and breed her, and if she has a couple of litters with no sneezers, I might believe she never really had pasteurella. She will stay in isolation and none of her rabbits will be sold. But last time I tried this the kits blew snot, and all were dispatched so I am not hopeful--and that's what I told her.

I would buy from the breeder again, not because I agree with her, but because I believe she would tell me the truth about the condition and treatment of any rabbit I purchased. What concerns me is when breeders do not disclose a previous sneezer, one of their kits, or their treatment methods.

 

[arachyd]

I don't think there is any perfect answer on how to deal with a sneezy rabbit that will work for everyone. What it comes down to is that each of us has to weigh our options and what we stand to lose in a worst case scenario and use our best judgment in how we respond. Many people don't have the space or cages to separate their rabbits far enough. Some have mixed breeds that they aren't too heavily invested in. Some have mixes they put a lot of years into perfecting something that suits them. Some have valuable show stock. Some can afford the latest blood and snot cultures and some can't. Some can keep their herd isolated and some have no way to control other people coming and going all the time. Some know for sure their rabbits have had no contact with other rabbits or people who had contact with other rabbits so their likelihood of an outbreak of snuffles is less likely than allergies or colds.

 

[SatinsRule]

Exactly my viewpoint. Sometimes to beat an illness, you have to take medications or treatments which cater to the vital systems of a body's function, one of which is the respiratory system.

Case in point: When a person has the flu, one of the most critical factors involved in getting past it is the person's ability to get plenty of rest (it's just one factor, I know, but it is nonetheless critical). If that person cannot sleep for all the sinus congestion, fever, etc., guess what? They will not get better as readily as they would be able to by treating symptoms. In other words, by tending to a body's vital functions, you are allowing that specimen's system to fight off the infection and recover, and think about it. How many of us have bought a package of Benadryl or NyQuil to deal with a bout with blocked sinuses? I sure have, and it worked in alleviating the symptoms, allowing me to get more rest, and as I get plenty of rest, it passes in a relatively short period of time.

The only problem I see with this analogy is that the flu is a virus and unless you treat it with antiviral meds, it won't go away and will eventually run its course. Treating the symptoms is helpful in dealing having the flu for sure, but it won't shorten the duration, it will only make it less bothersome. Same with a cold...like the old saying goes "how long does a cold last? 7 days if you treat it, a week if you don't." JMO...of course.

Point taken, but here's an opposing view.

As an airman at my first duty station in upstate NY, I decided on a cold night with temperatures in the low 20's to go on about a 3 mile run. The problem is that I came down with a rather serious case of the flu as a result of it, and being that I was certified under a program known as PRP, the docs at the base hospital were reluctant to give me anything beyond Tylenol, as it would have required a decertification and subsequent recertification. I chose to go to the exchange and get some NyQuil to help me with the congestion which literally had kept me awake for the most of 3 previous consecutive nights. 2 of the nights, I ran a fever. Once I took the decongestant, I suddenly was able to rest, and you guessed it, my body's immune system was able to do its job, and the rest of the symptoms disappeared in rather short order.

According to what you just said, even though that was nearly 24 years ago, I must still be a "carrier" of the virus, as I never took any kind of antibiotic to kill the virus itself. Which makes my point. Once you give your body a fighting chance to do what it's designed to do, it will take care of itself.

 

[Random Rabbit]

I want to thank All who have contributed to this discussion. I really appreciate the civil exchange of ideas, thoughts and practices that have been posted. I know that i have lots of food for thought and perhaps others have as well. I believe that Arachyd hit the nail on the head with " I don't think there is any perfect answer"

I have high hopes that our herd continues to stay healthy. Higher hopes that i will learn to deal with my fear of the buns contracting sickness at the shows. And... Highest hopes that Someday a way to protect the rabbits from pastuerella will be found !

 

[OneAcreFarm]

Point taken, but here's an opposing view.

As an airman at my first duty station in upstate NY, I decided on a cold night with temperatures in the low 20's to go on about a 3 mile run. The problem is that I came down with a rather serious case of the flu as a result of it, and being that I was certified under a program known as PRP, the docs at the base hospital were reluctant to give me anything beyond Tylenol, as it would have required a decertification and subsequent recertification. I chose to go to the exchange and get some NyQuil to help me with the congestion which literally had kept me awake for the most of 3 previous consecutive nights. 2 of the nights, I ran a fever. Once I took the decongestant, I suddenly was able to rest, and you guessed it, my body's immune system was able to do its job, and the rest of the symptoms disappeared in rather short order.

According to what you just said, even though that was nearly 24 years ago, I must still be a "carrier" of the virus, as I never took any kind of antibiotic to kill the virus itself. Which makes my point. Once you give your body a fighting chance to do what it's designed to do, it will take care of itself.

Actually it is NOT an opposing view...I did not mean that without antivirals you would be a carrier for life. What I meant (and obviously did not get across clearly ) is that you could take antivirals and kill it off sooner, or just let it run its course. In your case, you were probably already exposed to the flu and the run in the cold lowered your body temp enough to allow it to overwhelm your immune system. A young, healthy person generally has a better immune system and of course, being able to get rest will help. It is well established in medical science that hypothermia and lack of sleep can depress the immune system further. However, a person with a weakened immune system might not survive a serious case of the flu without antivirals. Pasteurella and the influenza virus are two different things. Pasteurella multocida is a bacteria. These can *usually* be killed with antibiotics. Unfortunately, in what I have read and heard, this is not the case with P.Multocida. It is hard to kill and manifests in many different ways. Those that survive a case of P.Multocida may end up being carriers for life. That is why so many breeders think it is important to breed for health and cull appropriately.

Now, having said all that, I find that I am wavering with my own sick does, wanting to treat and keep them, but knowing I am jeopardizing my herd if I do that....*sigh*

Knowing what you think you should do and actually doing it are two very different things.

 

[tailwagging]

I've seen this subject come up rather frequently here on the forum and to now have refrained from getting involved in the conversation for fear of saying something which will offend others. While offending others is certainly not the intent of what I am about to say, here is an alternate view.

Presently, I have rabbits (Dan, Londa, McCool, Chief) who have beaten rather severe cases of the snuffles. Of course, it took a little owner intervention and TLC to turn the trick, but each had advanced cases which involved significant globs of white snot coming from the nose after long sneezing episodes, but all it really took to beat the snuffles was a product I'm sure many of you have heard me mention here before. It's called VetRx, and it is suitable for use on everything from snuffles to mites. All I can tell you is that using it per directions, it WORKS!!!!

I have no vested interest of any kind in promoting this product, but I gladly pass along feedback on it in order to help others. I bought a bottle a few months back at the feed store in which I was already visiting to get rabbit feed, and it set me back to the tune of just under $7 (tax included).

I won't debate with anyone on whether or not advanced cases of the snuffles are "curable", as I'm sure everyone has their own opinions on the matter, but in the above stated cases, I'd submit to each of you that it can indeed be cured. Disagree if you want to, and it won't likely hurt my feelings at all.

This is what many Harley breeders used when we were in the breed.

 

[SatinsRule]

The fact that threads like this don't tend to die very easily is a big part of why I was so reluctant to get involved in any of the half-dozen or so prior threads on this matter.

The fact that folks with opposing views on the subject don't tend to look for or accept any real common or middle ground is why I won't comment on this one any further. It could get very ugly very quickly, and that's the last thing I want to either see or be a part of.

I have the utmost of respect of everyone else's stated viewpoint in this discussion, and I truly mean that. The only thing I ask is that each of you respect my decision to no longer participate in it (or any of the other active threads which now exist on the same subject). Again, it's why I was so reluctant to ever participate in it up to this point.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

The fact that threads like this don't tend to die very easily is a big part of why I was so reluctant to get involved in any of the half-dozen or so prior threads on this matter.

The fact that folks with opposing views on the subject don't tend to look for or accept any real common or middle ground is why I won't comment on this one any further. It could get very ugly very quickly, and that's the last thing I want to either see or be a part of.

I have the utmost of respect of everyone else's stated viewpoint in this discussion, and I truly mean that. The only thing I ask is that each of you respect my decision to no longer participate in it (or any of the other active threads which now exist on the same subject). Again, it's why I was so reluctant to ever participate in it up to this point.

I can totally respect that. I would just like to point out that "discussion" is not the same as "arguing". I appreciate the opportunity to engage in discussion with people of opposing views and just because we may not see eye to eye does NOT mean that I don't find any value in what you say or feel. Thanks for participating!

 

[Random Rabbit]

Again... my profound gratitude to those who have been willing to discuss and exchange ideas on this topic.... one that IS a very touchy subject. I have been given a lot of food for thought.

It was suggested to me that there has been a whole lot of "chatter" on various groups about snuffles recently... so i started combing thru the archives of this group... And of other groups that i lurk on. One thing that caught my attention... There 'seems' to be an Increase in posts on this topic just about Every spring. And it does have me wondering if there might be enviornmental triggers that cause a resurgence of symptoms ?

 

[MaggieJ]

I noticed the same thing, Random Rabbit. I suspect that spring moulds and pollen trigger a lot of allergies in rabbits, same as in people. This is one reason I tend to look for allergies first when someone reports sneezing in their rabbits. One has to take precautions and isolate a sneezing rabbit, but having done that, one can look for possible other causes than snuffles before culling the rabbit.

 

[ottersatin]

I agree with you Maggie on the allergens etc.
One should look at all possibilities of cause
of any suspected disease/illness. I certainly
did not mean for everyone to believe that should
I see a rabbit sneeze, I go and grab the "Golden Hammer"
and snuff out there lights at the first sneeze or cough!
I always weight the possibilities, time will tell the story
and point out the path which must be taken.
When one sees the picture when it is completely painted
one knows whether to: Hang it on the wall, Or toss it
into the trash-heap. I am attached to all of the members of my herd
and none are treated any better nor any worse than another.
All a valuable to the herd until they loose that value through
the lose of their perfect health which then becomes a threat to
every other member of the herd. A line must be drawn somewhere,
that is the line I have drawn for the members of the herd.
Ottersatin. ldtimer:

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

I have not been following this thread-- but just perusing the last couple pages-- I think it is pretty much agreed-- healthy rabbits, with healthy immune systems can handle exposure to the different illnesses--
Pasteurella will not go away-- there are so many species of it- that are present in every animal-- we need to look at pasteurella as we would an intestinal parasite-- a healthy animal will carry a parasite load, with no ill effects-- it's immune system keeps the numbers low. It is when the animal is stressed that the parasite can then take over. There are the treatment protocols that can be used to create 'clean" litters from carrier/affected does.This is especially important when dealing with a rare breed where every genetic source is important.
yes, my rabbits sneeze-- do I get overly alarmed by it? No-- why not? because I understand that bacteria is not the only reason for a sneeze. Careful observation is the key-- and making sure one does not get lax in the quarantine periods for new rabbits!! I already decided, a couple years ago-- any rabbits from auction go through treatment for at least 6 weeks , then must remain 'healthy' for another month before exposure to my resident herd. The exposre to illnesses works in two directions-- a new rabbit may make it through quarantine, only to catch something your established herd carries with no ill effect.
No animal can develop a healthy immune system if it is not exposed to various contagions. The immune system develops by being challenged-- not by being isolated or overwhelmed.

 

[fuzzy9]

I would love to hear more in depth details about your quarantine procedures, Terry. I will start another thread on this topic though, so we don't get away from the original topic of this particular thread.