Could We Discuss Sneezing ?

[Random Rabbit]

I've been reading... both here and other forum-sites about sneezing rabbits, rabbits with snuffles... rabbits with-out snuffles that happen to sneeze. Maybe i simply have information 'over load' but i am thoroughly confused.

Are there different types of sneezes ?

Are there differences in frequency and duration that sets off alarm bells ??


Tiny bit of Back Story here... We were very involved in rabbits in the late 80s and early 90s. At that time the concensus was that virtually Any sneezing rabbit had Snuffles and had to be culled. We showed a lot at that time and thanks to some who brought sick animals to shows, we lost a large portion of our herd. I believe that helped our decision to leave the hobby for many years. We never heard of a rabbit being Allergic to its surroundings or 'recovering' from sneezing. Of course the internet was not as widespread as it is now and a lot of information was not as readily available. Maybe today there is Too Much information out there. I read so many conflicting ideas and suggestions. I'm almost afraid to take any rabbits to a show as i am so paranoid about bringing Something home ! But we got the rabbits again for That purpose... to get out and show !

I respect the opinions i've read here on RT and am interested in knowing Your thoughts on Sneezes.

 

[hoodat]

Sneezing isn't necessarily the end of bunny civilization as we know it
We just had a Santa Ana condition a week or so ago and between the super dry air and all the pollen blowing around both the rabbits and I were sneezing for two days. As soon as the weather cleared up so did the sneezing.

 

[MaggieJ]

Snuffles causes sneezing, but sneezing is not necessarily snuffles. Just as people may sneeze for a variety of reasons, so may rabbits.

Sneezing is a warning sign and should not be ignored. If possible, a sneezing rabbit should be isolated until a diagnosis is made. It may be just allergies or weather conditions (as Hoodat found) but better safe than sorry. If it is snuffles, other symptoms (such as snot) will show up.

Some people with show animals keep their show stock in a separate facility from their breeders. This is inconvenient, of course, but does remove some of the worry that a show bunny will pick up something nasty and spread it through the whole rabbitry. Just something to consider, since showing is important to you.

 

[hoodat]

If you only show a few rabbits at a time a quarantine cage where they can be held after a show may be in order. Actually a quarantine cage or two is a good idea in any rabbitry.

 

[Random Rabbit]

DH is in the process of building some 'outside' isolation cage hutches now. Funny thing, when we came back to rabbit raising... i had a thought that in the 15 years hiatus, Maybe a cure had been found or Something... I've been amazed to read in chat group after chat group that the problem is Still around... and that there are people Still showing sick rabbits !

I like the ideas i've read here about early weaning and saving only the healthy kits and working from there. Then again on some other sites i read..."If it sneezes...OUT it goes !! " And that too makes sense. ( told You i'm confused !! )

 

[ilovehome]

I am only one year into rabbits, and am learning lots about snuffles. I bought two young rabbits from different breeders and neither had been to a show, but they still developed sneezing. I am learning to talk much more to the breeders about their beliefs about snuffles, and their herd management. Neither of the breeders I purchased from would intentionally sell an ill rabbit, but one of them does believe that snuffles is essentially overstated and that rabbits will recover from it. Other breeders I've talked with treat with antibiotics, cull sneezers but keep the healthy ones from a sneezer. I would like to know that upon purchase. I may still buy it, but the isolation period and observation would be much more stringent.

I have been somewhat discouraged by the number of rabbits with snuffles symptoms, and can see why you are concerned about it. That is smart. I think if you ask the right questions before purchase, and trust the answers of the person you are dealing with, you can prevent much of the problem. That, and culling even when it hurts because you just spent $$$ on that bunny...

 

[SatinsRule]

I've seen this subject come up rather frequently here on the forum and to now have refrained from getting involved in the conversation for fear of saying something which will offend others. While offending others is certainly not the intent of what I am about to say, here is an alternate view.

Presently, I have rabbits (Dan, Londa, McCool, Chief) who have beaten rather severe cases of the snuffles. Of course, it took a little owner intervention and TLC to turn the trick, but each had advanced cases which involved significant globs of white snot coming from the nose after long sneezing episodes, but all it really took to beat the snuffles was a product I'm sure many of you have heard me mention here before. It's called VetRx, and it is suitable for use on everything from snuffles to mites. All I can tell you is that using it per directions, it WORKS!!!!

I have no vested interest of any kind in promoting this product, but I gladly pass along feedback on it in order to help others. I bought a bottle a few months back at the feed store in which I was already visiting to get rabbit feed, and it set me back to the tune of just under $7 (tax included).

I won't debate with anyone on whether or not advanced cases of the snuffles are "curable", as I'm sure everyone has their own opinions on the matter, but in the above stated cases, I'd submit to each of you that it can indeed be cured. Disagree if you want to, and it won't likely hurt my feelings at all.

 

[ottersatin]

I beg to disagree with you on this one,
but you are as welcome to your opinion as I am to mine.
First I know of VetRX, it was known in the 50's as
"Save the Baby" and it didn't work then. A few inspired individuals
found a way to make a buck re-naming and selling to Rabbit people.
There is NO CURE for snuffles at this time. I am positive that
if VetRX was the answer A.R.B.A would have certainly been and would
at this moment be backing the product. The only thing that it does do is:
Mask the symptoms and create a Typhoid Mary Rabbit, one that although to
all appearance one would believe it to be cured, it still remains a highly
infective carrier. Like I said, you are welcome to your opinion, but
please don't bring your rabbit to visit mine. I do wish you luck
with your experiment, after all, this is nothing more than my opinion.
Ottersatin. ldtimer:

 

[SatinsRule]

Otter, it must be doing one heckuva good job masking my little "Typhoid Mary" bunnies, as 3 of the previously named rabbits in question haven't so much as sneezed in over 2 months.

 

[arachyd]

I'm curious as to how the rabbits you mention were diagnosed. Did you have cultures done? A bout of pneumonia can cause lots of snot and wheezing, even death and lead a person to think they've beaten snuffles because their other rabbits didn't catch it and die. Lots of curable things can cause similar symptoms to snuffles, affect more than 1 rabbit and the rabbits bounce back just fine. What I read from people posting who've actually been through a contagious outbreak of it is that it kills within a couple of days. A rabbit that lingers for weeks sneezing probably has some sort of other kind of respiratory infection or allergies.

 

[MaggieJ]

You make some good points, Arachyd. :goodjob: Rabbit people tend to be very ready to yell snuffles at the first sign of respiratory problems. I know many people feel that they cannot afford to take a chance and would rather cull a sneezer than deal with it. Given the cost of vet visits, this is very understandable, especially with meat rabbits. But I do wonder how many of the rabbit euthanized for "snuffles" actually have it.

One thing no one has mentioned is the security that keeping a closed herd gives one. I never bring in a rabbit from outside unless it is absolutely necessary... and then I isolate it for at least a month. I really do believe that this accounts for my lack of first-hand experience with rabbit illnesses. Those who like me have a small backyard rabbitry solely for home meat production might want to consider the benefits of a closed herd.

 

[Random Rabbit]

Back with the sneezing...

Is there any way to tell the difference between sneezing from allergies to hay or dust or shavings even, and sneezing due to respiratory troubles ?? ( aren't allergies a type of respiratory problem ? or are they nasal ??)

 

[SatinsRule]

I'm curious as to how the rabbits you mention were diagnosed. Did you have cultures done? A bout of pneumonia can cause lots of snot and wheezing, even death and lead a person to think they've beaten snuffles because their other rabbits didn't catch it and die. Lots of curable things can cause similar symptoms to snuffles, affect more than 1 rabbit and the rabbits bounce back just fine. What I read from people posting who've actually been through a contagious outbreak of it is that it kills within a couple of days. A rabbit that lingers for weeks sneezing probably has some sort of other kind of respiratory infection or allergies.

And you're probably onto something, mainly since the area they're in right now has alot of pollens and dusts which don't exist in their previous environments. Also, when I've gotten down to the "fines" in the bottom of the feed barrel, I've noticed a slight episode from time to time with a few rabbits in my herd. Not that they're allergic to their feed, but dusts of any kind (pellets, calf manna, oats and barley) seem to affect them, albeit in small ways, and it's why I've now reverted to using a spare feeder to sift out fines from feed before putting any of it into their feeders. Come to think of it, I had been using some bermuda grass hay in early January which caused a pretty severe flareup with several rabbits, and as we all know, certain hays are notoriously heavy in dusts and fine particles depending upon where it's cut and how it's baled and stored.

Like I said in my original post, I'm not here to debate this thing because it could only result in a rather heated discussion in which all involved wind up saying insulting things to each other that we'd later regret, but I am glad we have at least discussed it. That is the neat thing about this board. We are all adults here, and I am darned thankful for that.<br /><br />__________ Mon May 16, 2011 6:41 pm __________<br /><br />

You make some good points, Arachyd. :goodjob: Rabbit people tend to be very ready to yell snuffles at the first sign of respiratory problems. I know many people feel that they cannot afford to take a chance and would rather cull a sneezer than deal with it. Given the cost of vet visits, this is very understandable, especially with meat rabbits. But I do wonder how many of the rabbit euthanized for "snuffles" actually have it.

And that is likely where the differences in opinions and approaches to dealing with the issue of snuffles lies. There are generally two lines of thought (at least as I observed)

1-A breeder notices snuffles, and because they realize how much hard work and personal expense goes into everything they do with those rabbits, they take the precaution of permanently removing the animal to prevent an outbreak

2-A breeder notices snuffles, and because they realize how much hard work and personal expense goes into everything they do with those rabbits, they want to be absolutely sure that it's something which is a threat to the rest of the herd before they remove what they see as an important piece to the puzzle which is a breeding program

Is either one necessarily wrong? Not from where I'm sitting, but without pointing any fingers at anyone, I would have weeded out several very important rabbits from my herd had I taken to knocking rabbits in the head at the first sign of snuffles. Since I've driven all over the midwest getting back into this thing, I want to know what I'm doing is the right course of action, and when I give them an over-the-counter rememdy and it cleared up their symptoms with no relapses, I believe I made the correct choice in staying the course with the animals.

 

[DevonW]

I'm curious as to how the rabbits you mention were diagnosed. Did you have cultures done? A bout of pneumonia can cause lots of snot and wheezing, even death and lead a person to think they've beaten snuffles because their other rabbits didn't catch it and die. Lots of curable things can cause similar symptoms to snuffles, affect more than 1 rabbit and the rabbits bounce back just fine. What I read from people posting who've actually been through a contagious outbreak of it is that it kills within a couple of days. A rabbit that lingers for weeks sneezing probably has some sort of other kind of respiratory infection or allergies.

I agree with this. The actual pasturella virus will kill within a month of the rabbit contracting it without any sort of treatment. Bordatella (Kennel Cough) on the other hand presents itself like snuffles but it won't kill the rabbit it is contagious but curable. Pneumonia is also a likely cause, then you have your typical allergies and something most don't even think of is Asthma. A lot of rabbits that have asthma have sneezing fits triggered by excess dust, dry air, other allergens, too much activity and stress. I took part in a discussion where people were talking about does who have never been anywhere in their lives all of a sudden start sneezing when they have babies, as soon as the babies were weaned they stopped.

Rabbits sneeze and you should always take precautions, and quarantine when it happens but I don't think you should automatically assume it's snuffles unless you have a culture done.

 

[Random Rabbit]

I appreciate the willingness to discuss this issue and offer alternative lines of thought.

I do realise that should the time come ( heavens forbid it !! ) i will need to make the decisions that will be right for Our Situation. I rather like having other options to follow up on than just euthanising everything at the First sneeze.

Even with information overload.. i really Want that information... the better to feal with things as they come up.

 

[SatinsRule]

Random, I looked for other signs which pointed to a sickness which could be contagious. Sudden diarrhea, loss of appetite, not drinking water, urinating on itself. Those are things which normally rear their ugly heads when you have a problem which needs to be dealt with. If you don't see those other signs begin to show up, and you successfully remedy the symptoms which made you suspicious to begin with, it's a sign that your problem is something other than a contagious bacteria which would otherwise go unchecked and wipe out your herd.

Try and understand where I am and where my commitment to my herd comes from. My first trip involved leaving home almost immediately after work, driving all night to the tune of 600 miles each way (1,200 miles in all) to pick up my blacks and reds from a breeder in IL, finally getting back home some 27 hours later and then working all day long on barely an hour's rest. My second trip came a few weeks later, doing much the same routine to Wichita, KS to pick up the whites I've been so successful with, then up to the outskirts of Kansas City to get my Cal Satins, and getting back home some 29 hours after I started and going to work for 11 hours on zero hours of rest, again after a 1,200 mile round trip. The actual cost of the rabbits in these two cases increased exponentially when you factor in the cost of gas and meals along the way. As such, I have to know that the decisions I'm making with regard to the health of my herd are sound and not snap decisions. Some may disagree with that, but they're not the ones who were buying 4 22-gallon tanks of gas on each trip or working as a walking zombie afterward, either.

I'm not claiming to be an expert on this stuff. Far from it, but rest assured that I learned to recognize negative signs when I saw them during my first 8+ years in the rabbit raising rodeo.

 

[ottersatin]

This is a very interesting thread where a lot of
good points have been brought up.
In the distant past I had to deal with a Pasteurella outbreak
where I ended up culling more than a third of my herd.
This is when I decided on the strict culling regimen.
It has worked well for me and my herd as there is rarely
if ever any illness making an appearance. I do not even see
the appearance of nestbox eye. I prefer to put down one
or two rabbits rather then end up euthanizing nearly
the whole herd. When in doubt, CULL!
Though not for everyone, as always, JMPO
Ottersatin. ldtimer:

 

[OneAcreFarm]

Presently, I have rabbits (Dan, Londa, McCool, Chief) who have beaten rather severe cases of the snuffles. Of course, it took a little owner intervention and TLC to turn the trick, but each had advanced cases which involved significant globs of white snot coming from the nose after long sneezing episodes, but all it really took to beat the snuffles was a product I'm sure many of you have heard me mention here before. It's called VetRx, and it is suitable for use on everything from snuffles to mites. All I can tell you is that using it per directions, it WORKS!!!!

I am interesting in what the mechanism is that makes this work for curing Pasteurella...looking at the ingredients, I don't see anything that could do that. Here is what I found online:

Active Ingredient(s)
Made with 3.3% (v-v) alcohol U.S.P. The mixture contains Canada balsam, camphor, oil origanum, oil rosemary, blended in a corn oil base.

VetRx Rabbit Remedy Indications
For use as an aid in the treatment of all standard breeds of rabbits raised commercially, as a hobby, or for showing.

Effective relief for snuffles, pneumonia, ear mites, or ear canker.
VetRx Rabbit Remedy Dosage And Administration
Snuffles and Pneumonia:

Symptoms: Snuffles or colds produce sneezing, watery eyes, and a pus-filled nasal discharge. Watch for rabbits rubbing their noses with their front feet. Check inside the front paws of the animals suspected of having snuffles. Matted fur here can indicate snuffles. Rabbits with advanced snuffles will often have badly matted fur around the nostrils.

Frequently snuffles can develop into pneumonia. Signs of pneumonia are difficult breathing and gasping.
***************************************
Now, I DO see how the ingredients in this can ameliorate the symptoms, but not really how it could *cure* a Pasteurella infection. I am not doubting your experience, just trying to understand.

 

[eco2pia]

Maybe alleviating the symptoms allowed the rabbit to rest and eat more and therefore fight off the infection? Also some of those things have a mild antimicrobial function, so maybe a little germ killing, but I agree not a magic bullet effect.

Maybe the Nyquil effect? It helps them get their zzz's?

A lot of people on here have suggested that as a prey animal rabbits are prone to shock and if you can ease their discomfort they may pull thru where otherwise they wouldn't.

 

[DevonW]

One of the cage suppliers we buy from has VetRX we bought it once to use as a preventative measure at shows. It's not meant to be a cure but it helps alleviate symptoms (it seriously clears the sinuses) the stuff is this really oily liquid that coats the tissue in the nose which is supposed to reduce the risk of the rabbit picking something nasty up while at a show.