Another Rabbit Seizure

[Demamma]

I feel bad for that breeder. I live in town on one of the main streets. I have now 25 breeders and 11 hens. I have no regulations on the amount of Rabbits I have. I can have up to 12 hens no roosters. I have for the heat wave moved my breeders to the side of the house where it is coolest. There is no roof over their cages but it is super shaded there. I figured putting a roof would hold in the heat. If it rains it would be not a big deal. It sprinkled the other day and I just threw some plastics lids on half the cage. Most of the rabbits moved out from the shelter. I rather be one of the breeders rabbits under the tree by the fence than inside. I fear that by the time the breeder get his rabbits (if he does) back they will be sick or dead. I heard that one of the rabbits was by itself and had Dmitry nose. If that is true then if it is pasturella then his whole herd is probably infected. They loaded those poor rabbits up on a hot day into moving vans. In one picture I noticed a fan blowing on the poor rabbits. This is bound to end bad no matter what. Those AR people need to mind their own business.

 

[Miss M]

Lastly...there was one thing that did bother me. Some of the rabbits from the back yard (not in his garage/barn) were photographed with no roof or shelter over their cages. No protection from rain or run. HOWEVER, I also can't find any mention of it, so I do not know if there was a covering that was removed before photos were taken. My rabbit lean-to is a frame of pipe and wood with a heavy-duty all-weather tarp over it. The tarp is held up away from the rabbits so there's no chewing going on, it is slanted to let rain and snow fall off, and moveable so if we get a bad storm or something I can adjust the angle to better protect my rabbits. However, if you took bolt-cutters to it you could disassemble it in minutes, so...I am not going to claim he had no shelter for those rabbits, merely that I couldn't find any mention of it or photos with a shelter or covering. If and ONLY IF they were left unprotected, would I have an issue...they need some shelter after all.

I saw that picture... it looked to me like they were cages removed by AR to the yard, waiting to be loaded. I could be wrong.

 

[Zab]

.... I guess I'm not one to talk, but it didn't look good to me. I wouldn't want to be a rabbit there.
Then.. the smell, that seemed to be the main probblem, right? I can't imagine that many rabbits in that garage, with urine and feces exposed to the air in trays, to smell any good. And I can't imagine the rabbits respitory systems to like the air in there.

I havn't been there, I havn't smelled it.. but if it's smelling that much, I'm more concerned about the rabbits than the neighbours. The rabbits live in it and they do have fine, sensetive noses and lungs.

And of course I think the cages are way too small in all aspects, but that's probably just me.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

There was a link to the Indy hrs group... They are already figuring out where to place all those rabbits. They are also going on about Cutting the 'cruel wire floors' from the cages since the cages already have "drip pans".
The thought of the willful destruction of Someone Else's property BEFORE the case is even brought..really bothers me !
Also... the whole idea of the wire floors is to Keep the animals OUT of the urine and poop ! Their ignorance is frightening !!!

They are WHAT now?! Cutting the wire OUT??? That is insane! Not only are they as you pointed out destroying property, but they could really hurt those rabbits! Urine can really burn if on the skin, and I have a buck who would just LOVE to sit in a puddle of his own pee all day (hence why he gets no rest mat). I cringe to think of those clean, lovely animals sitting IN THE POOP TRAYS.

Their ignorance is both frightening and baffling. I can't grok it in the least.

The tv person should not have been allowed on the property without permission from the owner.

That REALLY angered me. He's trespassing, and all the police and AR people just let it happen!!! So much for upholding the law. :roll:

.... I guess I'm not one to talk, but it didn't look good to me. I wouldn't want to be a rabbit there.
Then.. the smell, that seemed to be the main probblem, right? I can't imagine that many rabbits in that garage, with urine and feces exposed to the air in trays, to smell any good. And I can't imagine the rabbits respitory systems to like the air in there.

I havn't been there, I havn't smelled it.. but if it's smelling that much, I'm more concerned about the rabbits than the neighbours. The rabbits live in it and they do have fine, sensetive noses and lungs.

And of course I think the cages are way too small in all aspects, but that's probably just me.

The cages are not huge, no, but they look like 24" x 24", which is not illegal or cruelly small either. MY rabbits are mostly in 24" by 24" cages. Rabbits are wondrous, so many different styles of husbandry work very well. Honestly it did not look bad to me. Not OMG AMAZING AND PERFECT but nowhere near seizure-worthy!!! Just remember, unless the rabbit is sitting in it's own feces, look at the rabbit's body condition and attitude. Before the cages were hauled to that trailer, the rabbits looked calm and content, and are clean and in good visible body condition.

Bigger cages isn't always better, either. If you can't easily get ahold of a rabbit it could be trouble!

I obviously can't say anything about smells as I was not there. Yes I am sure there was an odor...but I also don't see a whole lot of poop or anything so I'm unsure why it would be so "stinky." I'd be curious to know what his ventilation is like.

 

[LauraNJ]

I read an interview with the owner but can't find it now.

He said he made changes, most of the cages were outside under a lean two type set up. So, they were not all in the garage. Those pictures of the cages with rabbits are in the truck, not the garage. I, at first, thought they were pictures of crammed in cages in the garage but it is in a truck.

Also in that interview they spoke to one neighbor who lives close and she said she had no issues with the rabbits, that she did not notice a smell so now I am wondering if he had some new neighbor or difficult neighbor who just kept complaining to complain.

I don't know with that many rabbits if you could ever be at a barely any smell at all point. I mean almost 400 bunnies, even though many were young, that is alot of droppings and urine so it will smell a little.

The AC people said they had contacted owner between initial complaint and when they took the rabbits and the owner hadn't gotten back to them.

I think if you are visited by AC, you need to be proactive in keeping them up to date, inviting them back to make sure you are on the right track, be extra helpful so they can't say you did not do anything or you didn't make changes etc.

Our neighbor across the road was turned in by someone (we think a new neighbor) for their horse. The horse is a little thin and they tether it to a fence because it escapes. The stall was really dirty and the horse just is in the barn, not in the stall. Anyway, he was told what to do, my son went and helped clean out the stall and barn with his son.

He called Ac back, told them what he had done so far, could they come check to make sure it was how they wanted it, etc and when they came back they dropped the complaint. I think that is how people need to react to not have animals removed.

 

[Zab]

.... I guess I'm not one to talk, but it didn't look good to me. I wouldn't want to be a rabbit there.
Then.. the smell, that seemed to be the main probblem, right? I can't imagine that many rabbits in that garage, with urine and feces exposed to the air in trays, to smell any good. And I can't imagine the rabbits respitory systems to like the air in there.

I havn't been there, I havn't smelled it.. but if it's smelling that much, I'm more concerned about the rabbits than the neighbours. The rabbits live in it and they do have fine, sensetive noses and lungs.

And of course I think the cages are way too small in all aspects, but that's probably just me.

The cages are not huge, no, but they look like 24" x 24", which is not illegal or cruelly small either. MY rabbits are mostly in 24" by 24" cages. Rabbits are wondrous, so many different styles of husbandry work very well. Honestly it did not look bad to me. Not OMG AMAZING AND PERFECT but nowhere near seizure-worthy!!! Just remember, unless the rabbit is sitting in it's own feces, look at the rabbit's body condition and attitude. Before the cages were hauled to that trailer, the rabbits looked calm and content, and are clean and in good visible body condition.

Bigger cages isn't always better, either. If you can't easily get ahold of a rabbit it could be trouble!

I obviously can't say anything about smells as I was not there. Yes I am sure there was an odor...but I also don't see a whole lot of poop or anything so I'm unsure why it would be so "stinky." I'd be curious to know what his ventilation is like.

They are in Sweden :lol: But yeah, that's not in sweden, I know. And not the reason they took the rabbits either, so I'll say no more. Other than if you can't catch a rabbit in a larger cage, you need bigger doors!

I'd cut the wire from the bottom of the cages too - if they were MINE. Solid bottom cages comes with bedding, IMHO. Good bedding is at least as good as wire floors for sanitary purposes (it helps keeping smell down too), but requires more work and cost more. However.. since wirefloors are legal there, and since they don't own the cages, I can't see why they think they have a right to modify them at all.

 

[Frecs]

Regarding the smell:

I currently have:
4 Breeders
16 kits with their mom
3 “pet” rabbits (manure producers…hehehe)
12 freezer camp bound buns
6 “for sale” buns
For a total of: 41 rabbits

These all are in hutches outside with urine/manure going onto the ground. The manure is removed regularly. But, the ground has developed a distinct odor. My Pastor (who comes over for "farm therapy") calls it "barn smell". Well, I'm about to apply a product to the ground that horse folk use in stalls to absorb and remove the ammonia. Hopefully it will work in my setting. I don't have close neighbors but one is a bit contrary and I don't want to give them an excuse to call AC on me.

Zab, we've talked before about wire cages and the use of "deep litter" in wire cages. I do that during the winter but now that it is getting hot, it would not be good for the rabbits. The all wire cage allows for the best air flow which is critical for keeping them cool. You also need to understand that we have problems here in the US with out-of-control animal rights folks who think they can impose their crazed ideas onto everyone else.

Regarding "cooperating with AC" -- that seems like the right tack in a logical world. But, in the upside-down, inside-out, topsy-turvy world we are now living in...I wouldn't trust AC or HRS or HSUS folks... I'd much rather stay off their radar than have to hope for a fair and legal treatment by them. Yes, I would try to comply with their concerns where their concerns are reasonable. But, that doesn't guarantee they will stop the persecution if they are hell-bent on proving I'm a monster. -- Actually, in fairness to my county, I have to say that our AC is now run by our Sheriff's dept and they have turned a horrid situation around. I would trust them. I would NOT trust many of the AR folks in this county, though.

 

[Cottie]

I guess it's because I tuned into the backyard chickens argument before I tuned into meat rabbits...but I agree with Zab.

The cages were too small, in my opinion. He was running the equivalent of a bunny CAFO in his backyard.

He says he lost his job in December. I think there's more to the story than what's being publicized. It truly strikes me as animal hoarding, not breeding. I'd like to see photos of the inside of his house. AC can move faster than the Health Department, because it's an animal welfare issue.

(src)Those cages are filthy. I pulled a cleaner cage out of a pile of rubbish in my barn. Then the video here...the conditions, to me, are scary. Yes, sometimes cages get dirty quickly, but many of them looked as if they had been dirty for a while and not cleaned. Way more than a few rabbits molting and exploding fur,

I really really dislike the precedent this sets. I dislike the way it portrays rabbit breeding even more, though. If you want to run a large-scale breeding operation, you have to make sure you have all your bases covered. That holds true for all livestock, not just rabbits. I'm sure he is a good man, who is very knowledgeable, but the pictures look, to me, as if his situation got out of control.

 

[Peach]

I feel like the animals are being taken cared of just fine, however, I do believe that there are probably too many rabbits in that amount of space.

The cages do need some TLC by a nice torch, but otherwise, the cages are clean and so are the rabbits. They aren't living in their filth. I have a doe that lives in a wire cage,no urine guards, with her nesting box and resting mat.....and she is NASTY. She was soiled all on her butt and on her belly to her front paws yesterday. If anyone has raised Mini Lops, some have longer hair and it loves to get stuck wherever they go to the bathroom and you have to clean it regularly. I clean my trays every 2-3 days and the mats aswell....when she pees,poops, and sheds on them in that time....it's just a disaster. I'm sure if AR looked at her they would accuse me of "urine burn" or what have you. I gave her a nice rinsing and trimming on her hind end, but she's still a bit dirty. I still don't know how she achieves to get it on her other than making the mat nasty on a regular basis. She doesn't NEED the mat because she has nice thick well furred feet, but I just offer it to the mommies and babies since it's a nice place to rest when they are pregnant/ growing up (but I might reconsider since they keeping going to the bathroom on them, making it unsanitary)

Are the cages of the right size? Depends. I know that the minimum requirement for 6lb Mini Lop set by the ARBA is 24 x 24. So it's probably smaller for the Mini Rex.

Are the conditions perfect? No. Would I ever keep my rabbits in those conditions? No.

Do I think that they should be taken? No.

I have seen herds of 300-400 being managed just fine. The only thing that may have bothered me was the nail trimming. Some of them went without a nail trimming for a good bit until they went to a show or had their litter. Otherwise, the breeder takes excellent care of them, water 24/7 with is automatic watering system, industrial fans on all summer, living in wire cages so they never spend a day in their own flith, and feeds a fresh bag or two daily depending on the baby count.

I think they spun the story with the # of rabbits. It's really just 375....and then rounded up to seem more dramatic, they made it 400.

Babies can also make you sound like you have A CRAP TON. I have 24 holes ( Not including the 7 extra for emergencies in the old rabbitry location) ....but with about 3 Bucks, and with 10 brood does....then keepers....then babies on top of that....I can have nearly 70-80 rabbits in my rabbitry... until culling time. Then the numbers go back down until I breed again.

I do have four 24 x 30 as nursery cages, but I've come to not really like them. My babies seem to forget who feeds them and they and up being back of the cage runners/skittish. I hate that behavior. I usually end up moving them to a 24 x 24 cage in the main rabbitry so they can hear me working, hearing the occasional bang from the feed bin, the starting the hose to put water in the watering pale....

It's made a difference. I usually foster off babies so that there are normally no more than 4-6. They don't need it, but I like the milk to be evenly dispersed and I want them to have space in the 24 x 24 eventually. By 9-10 weeks, they will be in their own cage.<br /><br />__________ Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:01 pm __________<br /><br />I personally don't want a herd that big because I love playing with my rabbits (My dream size is about 40-50 MAX) and allowing them time in the house and the play pens, but there are people who can manage that size even though it doesn't offer all the same privileges of a smaller rabbitry.

 

[justbliss]

I'd like to point out real quick that many of the rabbits were taken out of larger cages like mother with kits and weaned litters and put into the smaller cages to transport them. You can see in the video a lot of larger cages sitting empty.

 

[Zab]

Regarding the smell:

I currently have:
4 Breeders
16 kits with their mom
3 “pet” rabbits (manure producers…hehehe)
12 freezer camp bound buns
6 “for sale” buns
For a total of: 41 rabbits

These all are in hutches outside with urine/manure going onto the ground. The manure is removed regularly. But, the ground has developed a distinct odor. My Pastor (who comes over for "farm therapy") calls it "barn smell". Well, I'm about to apply a product to the ground that horse folk use in stalls to absorb and remove the ammonia. Hopefully it will work in my setting. I don't have close neighbors but one is a bit contrary and I don't want to give them an excuse to call AC on me.

Zab, we've talked before about wire cages and the use of "deep litter" in wire cages. I do that during the winter but now that it is getting hot, it would not be good for the rabbits. The all wire cage allows for the best air flow which is critical for keeping them cool. You also need to understand that we have problems here in the US with out-of-control animal rights folks who think they can impose their crazed ideas onto everyone else.

Regarding "cooperating with AC" -- that seems like the right tack in a logical world. But, in the upside-down, inside-out, topsy-turvy world we are now living in...I wouldn't trust AC or HRS or HSUS folks... I'd much rather stay off their radar than have to hope for a fair and legal treatment by them. Yes, I would try to comply with their concerns where their concerns are reasonable. But, that doesn't guarantee they will stop the persecution if they are hell-bent on proving I'm a monster. -- Actually, in fairness to my county, I have to say that our AC is now run by our Sheriff's dept and they have turned a horrid situation around. I would trust them. I would NOT trust many of the AR folks in this county, though.

Well I still disagree with you on the bedding thing and on wirefloors alltogether. That said, I never said I think it's ok for them to change cages they don't own especially concidering the cages are legal over there.

We have animal rights activists here too, they act illegally though. Not that that makes much of a differense since they're rarely caught. But I see the problem and I'm not really passing any judgement on the action, but if it smells even the best I can imagine with those rabbits in that area, they I wouldn't want rabbits to live there.
From what I've seen, I think it was a good seizure. Maybe I wouldn't think so if I saw it live, but judging from what information that's provided with photos and the like, even if they're re-arranged, I don't think it was wrong. If my opinion had made a differense on anything, I'd look closer before deciding, of course.

 

[Demamma]

Zab how hot does it get where you live?

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

I checked the "Climate of Nordic Countries" wiki, and it said this:

Denmark's warmest month is July, where the mean temperature is 17 °C (63 °F).[2] In Iceland, occasionally thunderstorms occur in the south in late summertime, due to warm air being deflected to northern latitudes from warm air masses in other parts of Europe. Also, cold air. originating from Canada, warms rapidly over the ocean, forming thunderclouds. Thunderstorms, however, are very rare in Iceland, and there are less than five of them per year.[4] In June, Iceland's average daily temperatures range from 8 °C (46 °F) to 16 °C (61 °F).[8] Summer conditions vary in Norway depending on location. The Norwegian coast has cooler summers than areas further inland. Due to its northern location, there is almost no darkness in June and July in the north, reaching as far south as Trondheim.[5] In summer, the average temperature in the Northern areas are somewhere between 8 °C (46 °F) and 16 °C (61 °F), while further South it is usually 13 °C (55 °F) to 22 °C (72 °F).[8][9] In Sweden, summers experiences more rainfall than other seasons. Swedish areas north of the Arctic Circle rarely see the sun set during the months of June and July, due to the natural phenomenon Midnight sun.[6] Northern parts of Sweden have summer temperatures in the 8 °C (46 °F) to 16 °C (61 °F) range, while furtherther south, the temperature is closer to 13 °C (55 °F) and 22 °C (72 °F).[8][9] During summer in Greenland, ice sheets breaking up trigger what is known as "glacial motion" or "glacial earthquakes".[10]

I live in Michigan, and later this summer it will get in the high 90's (°F) and may even touch 100 °F if the stars align just right. A year or two ago I became ill with heat sickness, it was 99 °F and I felt like I was going to cook from the inside out and DIE. And Michigan runs kinda cool, temperature-wise. My friend who has lived in Arizona and Southern California tells me that a hot day in summer in AZ can be like...110 °F. Give or take.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, btw.

 

[Demamma]

We all ready got 111°f this summer here in northern California. I probably would have lost some rabbits if they were not on wire. I was having to hose them down. I could see giving hay if it was cold.

 

[Cottie]

I live in Michigan, and later this summer it will get in the high 90's (°F) and may even touch 100 °F if the stars align just right. A year or two ago I became ill with heat sickness, it was 99 °F and I felt like I was going to cook from the inside out and DIE. And Michigan runs kinda cool, temperature-wise. My friend who has lived in Arizona and Southern California tells me that a hot day in summer in AZ can be like...110 °F. Give or take.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, btw.

I think the climate in N IL is pretty close to Indianapolis. In a given year, we can range from -25F (without windchill) in mid-January to 105F in July/August. Our heat is heavy and humid. Dry summers are the best, but in very short supply.

That being said...I don't necessarily disagree with wire. Given the climate, I think wire might be a good route. There are other options, but the wire isn't totally the problem. The problem was he had ~125 rabbits in a 1 car garage. Even with ventilation, their ambient body heat would take it well over safe limits in July. Wire would not help. A good misting system might help, but I doubt it would solve the problem.

Average size of a 1 car garage is 14x20. There is no way, without extremely intensive cleaning to remove heat-trapping fur (which he obviously wasn't doing) and lots of high-tech systems (which he obviously didn't have) to keep the heat down in that space with 125 critters. It was a relatively mild day when they were there, and they reported the indoor temps were 85 degrees. Add in the humidity of the building from the urine, sweat and trapping properties of the shed fur. It had to be utterly oppressive in there.

My coop is a 1 car garage. I have 26 birds (23 chickens and 3 ducks) and 6 rabbits in there (11 if you count the newborn litter). We're building the tractors because I consider it to be overcrowded. The way it feels in the morning when I first open the door is uncomfortable to me. I can't imagine having 5 times as many animals in there.

 

[Zab]

As for temperatures in sweden, we do get heat strokes/peaks up to 35°C which may last a week or two, almost every year. Most of the summer, and close to the fall, it's 17-27°C around here.

That said, this is not about the wire, is it? I personally don't like wire at all and that opinion won't change. I'm not going home to you and cut all wire floors off and I'm not commenting on the flooring whenever someone post a picture of their rabbit or their cages (I'm bad at commenting at all if I don't have any good info to share, but if I do it's a ''nice bunny!" comment, wire or not), so I think I'm entiteled to have the opinion about wire without anyone trying to convince me otherwise I have thought it through, I personally don't like it. :tomato:

Only reason I mentioned it here was because of the opposing opinion that it was unsanitary and horrible to remove the wire from the cages and use solid bottoms. (and even then I don't think those people are right for altering others property). I didn't mean that to become a big discussion either, just stating my opinion and then moving on. I don't expect anyone to change theirs, just point that there is a differense in opinions

 

[Random Rabbit]

Just in case anyone would like to help.....


http://www.nmrrc.net/nmrrc-relief-fund.html

 

[Miss M]

this is not about the wire, is it? I personally don't like wire at all and that opinion won't change. I'm not going home to you and cut all wire floors off and I'm not commenting on the flooring whenever someone post a picture of their rabbit or their cages (I'm bad at commenting at all if I don't have any good info to share, but if I do it's a ''nice bunny!" comment, wire or not), so I think I'm entiteled to have the opinion about wire without anyone trying to convince me otherwise I have thought it through, I personally don't like it. :tomato:

Only reason I mentioned it here was because of the opposing opinion that it was unsanitary and horrible to remove the wire from the cages and use solid bottoms. (and even then I don't think those people are right for altering others property). I didn't mean that to become a big discussion either, just stating my opinion and then moving on. I don't expect anyone to change theirs, just point that there is a differense in opinions

I think they were just exploring reasons why a deep bed system might work well in Sweden, but not so well here. I'm not saying absolutely a deep bed system wouldn't work as well here, just that I think they were theorizing about it. They suddenly realized that Sweden probably doesn't experience the brutal summers we do.

It is my opinion that such a system, with the sustained heat that the vast majority of the country experiences, would be much more difficult to properly maintain here.

You are certainly entitled to dislike wire floors and say so. You are also entitled to not change your opinion about it.

But as you said, they should not be altering the cages... or the rabbits... which they are probably also doing.

 

[Demamma]

:yeahthat:

 

[Frecs]

:yeahthat: inkbunny:

I wondered about whether the AR folks would be busy altering the rabbits while they had them in their possession. I would think that is highly likely and should also be a criminal offense.