Another Rabbit Seizure

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Disgusting. The cages need a spray down with a power washer, but those rabbits are gorgeous, in great condition, and I'm not seeing piles of poo or signs of rabbits in distress.
 
I wonder though if they were zoned to have that many rabbits. They said in the article that it was in the Citys Southside. They had warned the owner for weeks to do something about the smell. Nothing was done so they seized the rabbits.

I don't like animals seized but at the same time if I was still living in suburbia or in a city and my close neighbor had 375 rabbits in their house and it smelled like 375 rabbits, I would not be happy. That isn't healthy for anyone and isn't great quality of life for the neighbors.

If in the Country or zoned Agric. then do what you want, have the animals you want but if you zoned residential then I think you are playing with fire to have that many rabbits.

If she wasn't violating any laws for zoning then she should be able to fight it.
 
Even if he was violating laws for zoning, they went onto his property when he wasn't home, and took his rabbits and cages.

http://fox59.com/2013/06/11/nearly-400-rabbits-found-in-feces-riddled-garage/
http://www.indystar.com/article/201...scated-from-Far-Southside-home?nclick_check=1

Two more articles. I'm still not seeing anything horrifying. Maybe the cages are a little smaller than I'd like, and a few cages I wouldn't use(there's a photo of one that slants downward, with one corner sitting on a rise in the ground), but nothing that I would constitute as neglect or abuse. I have seen much worse, like cages where the poop is built up over the floor wire.
 
The cages are seriously hairy, I don't know what they are doing all day to not be able to pull the hair mats off while they do routine things. But I'm not seeing any reason other than zoning to take them. Either way, they took the cages and all, while the owner wasn't there. I call that theft.
It said the owners have 4 days to claim them. They said some had sore hocks, still really not enough to take them.

Aren't there worst offenders to deal with than these people?
 
It actually doesn't look bad. It sounds like the smell was what was the problem and they said they gave the owner a month to correct the issue.

I think there is a point where our freedom to do what we want has to be balanced with a little respect for people around us. 375 plus rabbits is alot when the majority are living in a garage. I have 4 adult rabbits and 7 kits in a screened in porch area. I empty and clean trays everyday so it doesn't smell and there are no flys.

If I was warned a month ago about fixing issues, I would fix them. I wouldn't wait.

The cage that is tilted? I think it just came unhooked from the leg when they moved it probably.
 
I agree, they basically stole his rabbits. I didn't see anywhere that they had a warrant, did I miss that? Without a warrant, that is THEFT.

Though yeah, I'd have done some serious spring cleaning if they gave me advanced warning. :|
 
Ag law says 8 generations... out of SHOW animals, listed at top price, working in the GC premium...
that could cost the city some serious bank if they didn't do it properly
 
Even if the owner is breaking zoning laws, and even if the owner did not do what was necessary to take care of the smell, this does not sound like it was executed properly to me.

And "urine burns" on the feet? I'll bet they're urine stains, not burns. Somehow, some of my young kits manage to get it, even though they're on wire, and DON'T have urine guards as seen in the pictures. Not sure how. Talented, I guess. :?
 
Having been on both the animal control side, and the breeder side, I see nothing in those photos that would warrant taking the animals.
 
Oh geez, if they can take your rabbits for stained feet, I am totally screwed. Solid bottomed cages and hay in the litter box makes for some gross feet, I tell you what.
 
LauraNJ":2n4fe587 said:
I wonder though if they were zoned to have that many rabbits. They said in the article that it was in the Citys Southside. They had warned the owner for weeks to do something about the smell. Nothing was done so they seized the rabbits.
This is probably the issue.

I don't like seeing animals "seized" but I don't think this is really theft. The conditions the rabbits are in don't look bad, but they don't look good, either. They especially don't look good when you consider they're packed onto a property in a residential urban area.

In my county, you can have your dog seized for barking violations. They will warn repeatedly, but eventually they'll stop warning and take the animal whenever they can. It's a health department issue, which doesn't require a warrant, only repeated citations. Animals are considered a "privilege" in residential areas, it seems.
 
Regardless of if the seizing the rabbits was theft or not, in my opinion, taking the cages was theft. If they seize your dog for a barking violation, do they also take the dog house that is out in the yard for him? Or the crate you keep him in at night? What about his food and water dishes? Because, in my mind, that's what they did. They took the dog, the crate and the dishes.
 
No, I don't think they have a right to keep the cages. I think whether the owner reclaims the rabbits or not, the owner is owed the cages, bowls, etc back.
 
I saw One picture that the exterior of the cage was furry. Then...looked at the rabbit contained in that cage...Beautiful.

Supposedly, ac was there a month previous and warned him about some issues. Some he did correct. One was about aa rabbit with out water... supposedly ac found another w/o water...gee... have they never had an animal Dump out the water ??? We have a couple that it is a challenge to prevent that !!!

There is no zoning in his area to prevent having any number of rabbits. But there are oder ordinances and it sounds like a neighbor problem.

Just reading the news hype..drives me nutz !! Then the ac will go on about needing donations from the public to Care for the animals.

On another group it was stated that Indianapolis has quite a Large hrs group... they will certainly jump at this Golden Opportunity....
 
The man who owns these rabbits is well known, he is the vice president of the national mini rex club. People are pooling together to send him money for court fees and such. ARBA may even get involved in this one, seems like a ton of the members are either standing up or hunkering down and hiding to not give themselves any attention.

I honestly don't have a huge opinion on this, I know from others he has some nice mini rex, who all seem to be in good condition when bought, or showed, ect. From what I can gather in his area it was legal to own that many, but he's getting hit for the smell and some other such things.

This all just reinforces me to have a closed rabbitry and to be more picky on how and when I clean cause you just never know.
 
I looked at every photo and video clip I could find about this last night.

First off, I was not there, I cannot know the whole situation. But from the photos and videos I saw...here's my thoughts.

First, yeah the cages are a little grimy. They aren't dirty per se, just old and possibly in need of some love. Last summer I bought cages that were in that condition, a good scrubbing, some rust scraping and a fresh coat of Rustoleum and they...well don't look NEW but they're clean and servicable. I don't see an issue with his cages.

Second...the fur. There was a big to-do about the clumps of fur everywhere. Uhhhh...these are Mini Rex. I'm new to the breed, sure, but when my Mini Rex doe molted, it looked like she EXPLODED in her cage. One day nothing, the next day a few hair chunks sticking out of her coat...the next day RABBIT-PLOSION. Hair everywhere!!!! Also, a lot of his does had litters. Anyone who's ever have a doe yank out a tonne of fur knows it doesn't always end up in the nest. :roll: Yeah there's a lot of hair from what I could see, but not gross hair globs, just fluff.

Third...the food and water. A lot of AR people are angry that the rabbits didn't have food and water 24/7. For one thing, free-feeding isn't GOOD for rabbits. They get FAT. I sure don't free-feed! I expect my rabbits to clean their bowls when I feed them, in fact if I find food in a dish at the next meal, I WORRY because that means something is going on with that rabbit! Now...for water. Yes, rabbits should have fresh water available at all times. In a perfect world, this would be so. In reality, it doesn't always work out that way. I have two does who like to play with their water dish. I fill it, they drink for a while...then when sated they flip the dish, toss it around, push it around with their noses, and then groom the water they spilled on themselves off their fur. I water them FIRST so they get a good drink, then after I water everyone else I water them again because they inevitably spill it. I've started wiring their crocks to the cage to try and prevent it, but sometimes they get it loose. The AR people claim that a rabbit who does this should have a non-spillable water bottle and not a crock. GUESS WHAT, one of the does who plays with her water dish? DOESN'T KNOW HOW. She has never used a bottle and even though I tried to teach her, she doesn't "get" it and WILL dehydrate. Plus I have noticed my rabbits drink more when they have crocks, and I prefer they stay good and hydrated.

Fourthly...the number. Let's be real, to the average layperson, 400-ish rabbits sounds like a lot. What they aren't telling you is that, based on some reports, about two thirds or MORE of the rabbits seized were kits still with their mothers. Ergo the permanent adult population was under a hundred. Yes, to me that's a big rabbitry, but it isn't THAT big. There are folk on this forum who have more holes than he did, and certainly have more adult rabbits than he did! You can't rely on numbers to ascertain quality of life. There was no ordinance against his numbers, and they even admitted in places that having that many does not constitute a crime.

Fifth...I have yet to see ANY pictures of skinny or unhealthy rabbits. They claim they were living in filth. Have you SEEN the white ones? They are fluffy with shiny, dense coats and they are PRISTINE. Tell you what, if those rabbits were living in their own urine and faeces, the white ones would NOT be white for long. All his rabbits looked to be in good body condition. Now I cannot put my hands on them and know for sure, but from photos I do not believe them to be skinny. They also showed the wall that was behind the cages after the cages were seized (and btw, I am shocked that they seized all his cages and property as well as his rabbits!) and it DOES have pee on it. My first thought: he must have a few bucks caged along that wall. Some bucks spray. Some bucks spray ALL THE TIME. You could scrub that wall every day, and every day there'd be fresh buck-pee. And let me tell you, it STICKS. It doesn't just wipe off or something.

Sixthly...the breeding thing. There are some allegations that his rabbits were breeding out of control, breeding willy-nilly. Uhm. I call shenanigans. They are SINGLE RABBIT CAGES. The only cages with more than one rabbit in them are does with litters. The pictures I saw had info on the doe and the litter written on each cage, implying they are PLANNED LITTERS, not "WHOOPS THIS DOE JUST POPPED OUT A BUNCH OF KITS! Didn't even know she was preggers!"

Seven. One reporter in what I would call an illegal video (he's there for the seizure, IN THE GUY'S BARN WITHOUT HIS PERMISSION, filming and accusing things) claimed that they think the rabbits were for show, for reptile feeding, and for pet shops. I don't think they've confirmed the latter two, and if they are being sold as feeders or to pet shops...SO? That isn't against any laws that I'm aware of.

Eighth...they said he was out of town. Okay, so...I still see no mention anywhere of a warrant. It is my understanding (someone correct me if I am wrong) that if an animal isn't in immediate danger or desperately ill, they cannot seize it until they serve the owner a warrant.

Ninth...a lot of the info I found on this came from AR sites and AR groups. A lot of them are complaining about how they are sure that the rabbits were bred for meat because nobody who "loves" rabbits would keep so many. In cages and on wire no less! Uhm. Do I even need to go there? Do I??? I don't even feel the need to dignify that with a response here. :evil:

Lastly...there was one thing that did bother me. Some of the rabbits from the back yard (not in his garage/barn) were photographed with no roof or shelter over their cages. No protection from rain or run. HOWEVER, I also can't find any mention of it, so I do not know if there was a covering that was removed before photos were taken. My rabbit lean-to is a frame of pipe and wood with a heavy-duty all-weather tarp over it. The tarp is held up away from the rabbits so there's no chewing going on, it is slanted to let rain and snow fall off, and moveable so if we get a bad storm or something I can adjust the angle to better protect my rabbits. However, if you took bolt-cutters to it you could disassemble it in minutes, so...I am not going to claim he had no shelter for those rabbits, merely that I couldn't find any mention of it or photos with a shelter or covering. If and ONLY IF they were left unprotected, would I have an issue...they need some shelter after all.

I do not believe there was justification for seizing his rabbits. I feel the reporters have already slandered this man's name with false information. I am now anxiously awaiting for further news...I worry about what will happen to the seized rabbits. :(
 
Kyle@theHeathertoft":1afned5j said:
I do not believe there was justification for seizing his rabbits. I feel the reporters have already slandered this man's name with false information. I am now anxiously awaiting for further news...I worry about what will happen to the seized rabbits. :(
Within city limits, in most jurisdictions I know of, any animal you own must be a pet. So that animal must be treated like a pet. You don't typically keep 300+ pets in production cages on your property. In this case, it would be argued that he's a breeder/kennel operator (which requires licensing in many places). Otherwise, it's animal hoarding, and if the neighbors can smell it it's a public health problem.

I'm not saying it's right. This is why people who do anything regarding breeding/livestock anywhere but ag zoned property should probably do some serious digging into the regulations. I've known people who live on acres of land that have had to rehome small flocks of laying hens because they aren't "zoned" for it. Since they weren't "zoned" properly it became a public health issue, and the health department/AC gets involved, and neither of those groups has any kind of oversight.
 
There was a link to the Indy hrs group... They are already figuring out where to place all those rabbits. They are also going on about Cutting the 'cruel wire floors' from the cages since the cages already have "drip pans".
The thought of the willful destruction of Someone Else's property BEFORE the case is even brought..really bothers me !
Also... the whole idea of the wire floors is to Keep the animals OUT of the urine and poop ! Their ignorance is frightening !!!
 
Ok, the cages should not be touched, they and the rabbits still belong to the owner. He has so many days to collect them.

The tv person should not have been allowed on the property without permission from the owner.

If I was the owner, I would hire an attorney. To me, the cages looked pretty good, even the garage looked good, very few droppings on the floor actually for all those rabbits.

I don't know how successful the owner would be against AC but I would give it a shot. We all don't know how badly it smelled. His neighbors do not appear to be very far away so I think it is possibly a health issue which may make it harder to fight.

I would think with that many rabbits in a small space they would have to be cleaned a couple times a day to keep the smell down. I am doing my screened in porch at least once a day and I only have 4 adults and 2 litters in that space.

His rabbits looked healthy but who knows what they have been exposed to now. Wonder if they took the feed? Or are they feeding new food to the rabbits?
 

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