What would you call these odd colors?

[judymac]

I've been working on a chart of what colors you get when various color genes interact. I realize that what looks like a self black could be any one of a number of genetic makeups, it could be a non-agouti full color black, self chinchilla, supersteel, non-agouti steel or a dark seal, so not every combination is a unique color.

My problem is what do you call it when a bunch of lesser-seen genes end up together to make a bizarre color? I've gone through a number of color charts online, but I've found them more confusing than helpful. Many of the charts call tan a(t) colors crossed with chinchilla c(chd) or sable c(chl) 'otter', even though we generally call the full color tans 'otters' and the ones with no yellow tints 'martens'.

Also, I see several charts call himi c(h) rabbits with the non-extension gene as 'Himalayan extended'. How can a non-extension color be called extended?

It's a simple thing to add black, blue, chocolate or lilac to a color name to take care of the 'B' and 'D' genes (black/brown and dense/dilute). And anything with an albino cc is going to be a REW, no matter what. Dominant black B(D) doesn't apply to most breeds, so I'm not doing anything with that. That leaves agouti/tan/self, Full color/chin/sable/himi, and steel/normal extension/harlequin and non-extension fawn to deal with. Some I've been able to figure out with much problem, but others have me confused as to what to call them.

What would you call a. . . .
agouti A Himalayan c(h) harlequin e(j)
tan a(t) Himalayan c(h) harlequin e(j)
self aa Himalayan c(h) harlequin e(j)
(You would see the harlequin markings on the face, since c(h) removes the yellow bands, it seems it should be a magpie, would they all simply be a Himalayan (pointed white in Angoras) magpie since e(j) trumps agouti, self and tan patterning?)

agouti A Himalayan c(h) non-extension ee
tan a(t) Himalayan c(h) non-extension ee
(self Himi non-extension is still just a pointed white with usually poorer color, a 'torted' pointed white. Would that make the other two an agouti torted pointed white and a torted pointed white marten?

tan a(t) chinchilla c(chd) steel E(S)
self aa chinchilla c(chd) steel E(S)
An agouti chin steel would simply be a silver-tipped steel. When steel meets tan, it often makes an odd color combination, not quite either pattern. Would the tan chin steel be a steeled marten (like harlequinized is used to describe the oddball combination of harlequin and normal E)? Steel doesn't express much when combined with self, would the self chin steel simply be a marten?

agouti A sable c(chl) steel E(S)
tan a(t) sable c(chl) steel E(S)
self aa sable c(chl) steel E(S)
Okay, I raise neither sable nor steel, so I just don't know what to call these. My guess would be sable silver-tipped steel for the agouti, steeled sable marten for the tan, and I'm not sure about the self.

Lastly,
agouti Himalayan steel
tan Himalayan steel
self Himalayan steel.
Himalayan, like chin and sable, would not have gold tipping, so the agouti would be silver-tipped steel pointed white, the tan a steeled Himalayan marten (pointed white marten), and the self simply a Himalayan (pointed white)?

Any thoughts on these color combinations would be greatly appreciated. Have you ever even seen any of these?

 

[Alaska Satin]

I've been working on a chart of what colors you get when various color genes interact. I realize that what looks like a self black could be any one of a number of genetic makeups, it could be a non-agouti full color black, self chinchilla, supersteel, non-agouti steel or a dark seal, so not every combination is a unique color.

My problem is what do you call it when a bunch of lesser-seen genes end up together to make a bizarre color? I've gone through a number of color charts online, but I've found them more confusing than helpful. Many of the charts call tan a(t) colors crossed with chinchilla c(chd) or sable c(chl) 'otter', even though we generally call the full color tans 'otters' and the ones with no yellow tints 'martens'.

Also, I see several charts call himi c(h) rabbits with the non-extension gene as 'Himalayan extended'. How can a non-extension color be called extended?

It's a simple thing to add black, blue, chocolate or lilac to a color name to take care of the 'B' and 'D' genes (black/brown and dense/dilute). And anything with an albino cc is going to be a REW, no matter what. Dominant black B(D) doesn't apply to most breeds, so I'm not doing anything with that. That leaves agouti/tan/self, Full color/chin/sable/himi, and steel/normal extension/harlequin and non-extension fawn to deal with. Some I've been able to figure out with much problem, but others have me confused as to what to call them.

What would you call a. . . .
agouti A Himalayan c(h) harlequin e(j)
tan a(t) Himalayan c(h) harlequin e(j)
self aa Himalayan c(h) harlequin e(j)
(You would see the harlequin markings on the face, since c(h) removes the yellow bands, it seems it should be a magpie, would they all simply be a Himalayan (pointed white in Angoras) magpie since e(j) trumps agouti, self and tan patterning?)

agouti A Himalayan c(h) non-extension ee
tan a(t) Himalayan c(h) non-extension ee
(self Himi non-extension is still just a pointed white with usually poorer color, a 'torted' pointed white. Would that make the other two an agouti torted pointed white and a torted pointed white marten?

tan a(t) chinchilla c(chd) steel E(S)
self aa chinchilla c(chd) steel E(S)
An agouti chin steel would simply be a silver-tipped steel. When steel meets tan, it often makes an odd color combination, not quite either pattern. Would the tan chin steel be a steeled marten (like harlequinized is used to describe the oddball combination of harlequin and normal E)? Steel doesn't express much when combined with self, would the self chin steel simply be a marten?

agouti A sable c(chl) steel E(S)
tan a(t) sable c(chl) steel E(S)
self aa sable c(chl) steel E(S)
Okay, I raise neither sable nor steel, so I just don't know what to call these. My guess would be sable silver-tipped steel for the agouti, steeled sable marten for the tan, and I'm not sure about the self.

Lastly,
agouti Himalayan steel
tan Himalayan steel
self Himalayan steel.
Himalayan, like chin and sable, would not have gold tipping, so the agouti would be silver-tipped steel pointed white, the tan a steeled Himalayan marten (pointed white marten), and the self simply a Himalayan (pointed white)?

Any thoughts on these color combinations would be greatly appreciated. Have you ever even seen any of these?

This is kind of a mental merry go round! Since none of them are recognized colors/varieties, many (probably) don't have common names, so calling them something descriptive seems like the way to go. I'm thinking of what would go on a pedigree, where I always appreciate knowing about any bugaboos coming along with the rabbit (like a steel E(S) hiding in what looks like a self black!).

agouti A Himalayan c(h) harlequin e(j) - harlequinized himi/pointed white
tan a(t) Himalayan c(h) harlequin e(j) - harlequinized martenized himi/pointed white
self aa Himalayan c(h) harlequin e(j) - torted himi/pointed white
Since the c(h) blocks yellow, they'd all be magpie, so the first two might look like broken himis. This would make me want to call them harlequinized for sure, so that everyone would know they were not brokens.
And yet...

This amazing creature is pictured on p. 236 in Rabbit Production 10th Edition by Lukefahr et al. 2022. The authors seem pretty savvy about color genetics (though they do call the silvering gene si recessive), but unfortunately they have almost nothing to say about what produced this magpie himi. So maybe the agouti + harlequin would trump the body color suppression of the c(h)??? I may have to do this experiment (where are all those empty holes in my barn when I need them?)

The last, I think, would just look torted. But I've never seen one, and that magpie himi makes me doubt my conclusion...

agouti A Himalayan c(h) non-extension ee
tan a(t) Himalayan c(h) non-extension ee
I would love to see what these look like. I have never seen what happens when non-extension meets himalayan. Maybe frosted himi/pointed white and frosted martenized himi/pointed white? Given the tendency for ee to leave tipping on ears and nose, you might be able to see the himi markings alright.

tan a(t) chinchilla c(chd) steel E(S) - Yes, I would call this a steeled marten.
Here are photos of a steeled otter. I would think the c(chd) would just remove the yellow pigment in the reduced tan markings.


self aa chinchilla c(chd) steel E(S) - Since self aa prevents or covers up the effects of both E(S) and c(chd), it looks like a self black...so maybe "self chin carrying steel?"
This is a self chin carrying steel kit (incidentally, as she matured, her eyes ended up light/medium brown rather than blue-gray as they appear here):


agouti A sable c(chl) steel E(S)
tan a(t) sable c(chl) steel E(S)
self aa sable c(chl) steel E(S)
I've had sables and I've had steels, though I haven't had them meet yet. But I'd agree with sable steel for the agouti; Green Barn Farm calls it "Black Sable Steel." Here's a photo from their site Holland Lop Colors: Ticked Group

They have a photo of a chocolate sable steel on the same page.

I'd also agree with steeled sable marten for the a(t), which would have the reduced markings and so would not look like a normal sable marten.
Since self aa prevents expression of E(S) I think the third is one that would look like a normal sable...maybe "sable carrying steel?"

agouti Himalayan steel
tan Himalayan steel
self Himalayan steel.
I like silver-tipped steel Himalayan, and silver-tipped steeled Himalayan marten for the first two. But because I was hoodwinked by a self rabbit carrying a secret copy of E(S), I'd want to call the third "himalayan/pointed white carrying steel."

One more version of less commonly combined genes ending up together to make a bizarre color is the interesting interaction of E(S) and e. I'm pretty sure that's what made this black bunny with a haze of gold tips:

<A_B_C_D_Ese> How about a poetic " Gold Frosted Steel?"
Hat tip to @reh for helping me figure this one out!

 

[mrscllc]

My head is spinning from regular color genetics usually, but this is a topic I was going to raise here soon, so I'll think hard and try to sound like I understand a bit.

I have a Himalayan(Californian?) Dam and an steel tipped agouti( dark chinchilla?) Sire that produced this interesting colored kit.










When born, he had a blue/purple back end and full face and pink skin between shoulders halfway down his back.


Now at 2.5 weeks old, he has clear color tipping, with a white undercoat, and red eyes. His original white areas are actually a creamy color, he looks alot like a siamese cat in coloring.





The white band of color had me thinking his dam was possibly Dutch somewhere in there. But as he has no face marking I ruled that out. This is my first time seeing red eyes on a non REW or my pointed Californian crosses.

Sorry I don't have any actual genetic help to add, other than this may fit one of those scenarios of color you were asking about.

 

[mrscllc]

Sorry, I now recognize this is possibly not in line with the conversation you were having as it's about what to call the colors, not necessarily photographing them.

 

[Julie Stade]

I realize that what looks like a self black could be any one of a number of genetic makeups, it could be a non-agouti full color black, self chinchilla, supersteel, non-agouti steel or a dark seal, so not every combination is a unique color.

And then you have the added complication here of how the Rex coat alters color phenotype (like turning Chestnut into Castor). I have two phenotypically Seal rabbits which were a complete surprise for the breeder who produced them (pedigree is all Black and White), and I highly suspect they're self-black Chins (which will appear Seal on a Rex coat). I'm going to test breed the doe to my daughter's REW buck to see if she pops out a 100% Sable litter indicating she was a true cchl/cchl Seal (which I highly doubt looking at the pedigree) or if she's a cchd/c Seal imposter, which I think is far more likely.

 

[judymac]

Sorry I don't have any actual genetic help to add, other than this may fit one of those scenarios of color you were asking about.

It's a great question, and here is as good as anywhere. Mom has the Himalayan (Californian/pointed white) gene, which is an option on the 'C' color gene. There are five options on this gene location, in descending order of dominance: Full-color C simply lets any colors from the other genes be produced. It means both the dark and yellowish pigment factories are ready to go to work if needed. Next down is chinchilla c(chd) which allows the dark color pigments to be produced normally, but the yellowish tones are greatly reduced/eliminated. Next is sable c(chl) which has no yellows produced, and the dark colors are reduced, making black look dark sepia brown. Then comes in your Himi pattern, where the dark colors only show up on the cooler points (ears/nose/feet/tail, the rest is albino white with pink/red eyes. Lastly is all albino, the ruby/red-eyed-white, where the pigment factories are all closed, and no color can print.

The funny thing about Californian/Himalayan/pointed white (the name used depends on the breed), is that it is heat-sensitive. In very cold weather, you can get color start to produce on the hairshaft in places where it normally wouldn't. When it warms, the color goes back to white. Chilled kits often get this ticking of dark color. I once had an angora rabbit that decided to blow her entire coat mid-winter. Her coat came in dark at first when it regrew, but quickly returned back to the normal colors, leaving that dark ticking on the tips. When that coat molted out, the entire coat regrew normally, with color only on the points.

I am wondering if this isn't a normal Himi that got chilled? If so, the coat should continue to grow in normally.

 

[Alaska Satin]

My head is spinning from regular color genetics usually, but this is a topic I was going to raise here soon, so I'll think hard and try to sound like I understand a bit.

I have a Himalayan(Californian?) Dam and an steel tipped agouti( dark chinchilla?) Sire that produced this interesting colored kit.

When born, he had a blue/purple back end and full face and pink skin between shoulders halfway down his back.

Now at 2.5 weeks old, he has clear color tipping, with a white undercoat, and red eyes. His original white areas are actually a creamy color, he looks alot like a siamese cat in coloring.

The white band of color had me thinking his dam was possibly Dutch somewhere in there. But as he has no face marking I ruled that out. This is my first time seeing red eyes on a non REW or my pointed Californian crosses.

Sorry I don't have any actual genetic help to add, other than this may fit one of those scenarios of color you were asking about.

Other than the whitish band around the shoulders, it looks just like the "frosted" Californian Satin kits I've had.

The tipped hairs come about from the nest box being particularly warm or humid, and can be pretty uneven. The kit pictured above was heavily frosted, but I've had kits on which the frosting showed up just lightly around the hindquarters. As they grow, the frosted hair molts out and they look like a normal himalayan/Californian.

As far as I know, red eyes can only come from REW or himalayan genes. There is another gene called lutino that can produced pinkish-purple eyes, but it's still pretty uncommon on the U.S.

And I'd agree that your buck is a steel.

 

[judymac]

I have a Himalayan(Californian?) Dam and an steel tipped agouti( dark chinchilla?) Sire that produced this interesting colored kit.

Looking at the young kit, it does look like a steel ticking as well, interesting combination. I'm looking forward to see how steel and Himi interact here as the kit grows.

 

[judymac]

Since none of them are recognized colors/varieties, many (probably) don't have common names, so calling them something descriptive seems like the way to go. I'm thinking of what would go on a pedigree, where I always appreciate knowing about any bugaboos coming along with the rabbit (like a steel E(S) hiding in what looks like a self black!).

I so appreciate your input in this. This is exactly my thought, we need something to put on the pedigree, and I like your idea of adding 'carrying ______' as a warning, like we put VC on the pedigree of blue-eyed-white offspring that look 'normal', to let them know the gene is hiding and could pop out at any time in the offspring, causing mismarks in your show stock. Good idea.

The photo of himi x harlequin is fascinating. I wonder how they decided on the Himalayan points, as it just looks magpie. Would sure be interesting to know the pedigrees of the parents.

The tipped hairs come about from the nest box being particularly warm or humid

Ah, isn't Himi an odd gene? In cold weather, the points become darker. In really cold weather, the rabbits can get dark tipping all over. In warm weather, the points fade, sometimes to the extreme of being so pale you don't notice them as much. And yet, in the warm/humid nestbox, you get the dark tipping again. Fascinating.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Looking at the young kit, it does look like a steel ticking as well, interesting combination. I'm looking forward to see how steel and Himi interact here as the kit grows.

Yes, the ticking looks a lot like like steel. Although there is no steel in the particular line my frosted himi kit came from, that's what I was thinking it was, until it opened its very pink eyes!


I don't think the steel E(S) can affect the himi c(h) since Californians are (usually) selfs, but there's a always the possibility that @mrscllc kit got an agouti A from the sire. I'd definitely love to see photos of @mrscllc's kit as it develops.

The photo of himi x harlequin is fascinating. I wonder how they decided on the Himalayan points, as it just looks magpie. Would sure be interesting to know the pedigrees of the parents.

If you have the book in your hands, you can see the nose marking pretty clearly, and what looks like broken color on the feet, which I don't think would appear in a normal broken (I've never seen a broken with other than white feet). My suspicion is that the authors saw the pink eyes and gave the markings the benefit of the doubt.

I still can't believe they wouldn't include pedigree information about that rabbit! Urrgh! Talk about tantalizing! But maybe they just didn't have any info, yet couldn't resist putting that photo in the book.

 

[reh]

you like odd colors?


Litter from him (2 black, 5 white)


with this white ear doe 10 pink kits (4 survived - white)

both does are related, owner said they do not carry white. He breeds for multicolored rabbits for selling. I do not know how sure the "no white" is, but he had not kept this buck due to the all white or black kits.


Regarding color names, you can look at rabbits on rabbitcolors to learn how i tried to name them (automatic from genes, if you find odd naming, please tell me, very rare colors may not yet be named).
MAybe read Help - Rabbitcolors to find out, how to find desired colors.
I try not to use breed names as color names to prevent false imagination about how a color gene works / what color it causes (tans do not have to have a red belly, at may also look like otter, torts could look like himi in red).
Like this incapable "... tipped steel" (no, steel is NOT tipped with light, its the agoutiband, tips are dark like in all other agouti rabbits).

 

[mrscllc]

So far this fun little kit is 24 days old. There is a distinct white coat under all those dark tips. We call it Siam for the siamese cat like coloring, and is farm favorite so far.

 

[judymac]

owner said they do not carry white. He breeds for multicolored rabbits for selling. I do not know how sure the "no white" is, but he had not kept this buck due to the all white or black kits.

These photos are fascinating. There are similar photos in another book, a pink-eyed magpie. We know the harlequin gene can do funny things with other genes, like usurp agouti markings. Even as a single recessive it can 'harlequinize' other color patterns. Could this be what the harlequin e(j) gene does when combined with the c(h) Himalayan/Californian/pointed white gene? If it can put color in the agouti A_ markings, could it put color in the Himalayan white?

Has anyone bred Himalayan to harlequin?

 

[RabbitsOfTheCreek]

What I like about Siamese Sables is that they can come in different shades
I've mostly had normal/medium ones, but I've had dark ones that look close to black and a couple that looked like dusty smoke pearls

 

[judymac]

What I like about Siamese Sables is that they can come in different shades
I've mostly had normal/medium ones, but I've had dark ones that look close to black and a couple that looked like dusty smoke pearls

Interesting, isn't it, how much we still don't know about rabbit colors. There are obviously color intensifier/reducer genetics as well. I've heard the ones that deepen the colors were called umbrous, and work similar to rufus--multiple positive modifiers make for a darker color. I'd love to get umbrous back into my herd.

 

[reh]

We know the harlequin gene can do funny things with other genes, like usurp agouti markings. Even as a single recessive it can 'harlequinize' other color patterns. Could this be what the harlequin e(j) gene does when combined with the c(h) Himalayan/Californian/pointed white gene? If it can put color in the agouti A_ markings, could it put color in the Himalayan white?

No, i think not so.

Other then commonly stated, eJ is dominant to E. The dark japanese parts resemble steel/dominant black and therefore are also visible on an agouti background. The light parts have no receptors at all and are recessive to all e alleles. A truebreeding japanese eJeJ should not show a difference between aa (torted japanese) and A.

Japanese is dominant black coupled with missing MC1R (light parts) , therefore its perfectly normal for it to darken agout imarkings - but not white himi parts, for it not casing warmth and also not repairing the temperature sensitive tyrosinase of himalayan.

Has anyone bred Himalayan to harlequin?

Regarding the buck, i am not sure about the "dominant white" of his offspring which i could not explain, if the does do not carry c.
I do not know if the strange buck comes from a white ear breed, but the 2 black kits had no white on them, so maybe not.

But statistics have no memory, i remember 8 black short haired kits from a breeding where i was expecting half Aa, half ee, half angora (the black one was the only one of them i dont want to use on trying to get brown based red angoras).

Regarding his coloration a potential cause could be a mosaic of chinchilla + albino due to fusion of 2 embryos or (back)mutation of the tyrosinase gene (in c only one letter of the DNA is exchanged).

 

[judymac]

Japanese is dominant black coupled with missing MC1R (light parts) , therefore its perfectly normal for it to darken agout imarkings

I have noted that my harlequins have some normal dark black markings, along with a few intensely dark bands. Those must be the dominant black.

 

[reh]

All dark parts of japanese are the same. Its like ES. Together with agouti (in EeJ) its like steel, as eJe or eJeJ its like ESe = nearly black.
And for the light parts its like ee only if there is an e allele, on eJeJ ones there should be no smut in light parts (my japanese rabbits with no e anywhere do not have any dark hairs on nose or ears).

 

[judymac]

my japanese rabbits with no e anywhere do not have any dark hairs on nose or ears).

Is this referring to 'smut', or is there simply yellow on the face and ears? How would that apply to the Ame rican Standard of Perfection that requires the ears to be of alternating color with the face? A good Dutch pattern requires Du du, a good spotted is En en, does a good alternating harlequin pattern require a particular combination?

 

[reh]

referring to smut, in difference to f.e. this one