What would you call these odd colors?

[Alaska Satin]

So would you say that "the silvering (Champagne D'Argent)" has 3 shades or colours on the hair shaft? Lighter, darker and lastly the silver tip? Where the "blue tip" is blue to the very ends where he is silver?

Not really. That graduation in color that you see in the undercolor of that photo of Champagne fur is the slate undercolor of a black coat. The Champagne's base color should be like a self black rabbit - black with a slate blue undercolor - plus white hairs, interspersed with completely black guard hairs (although those don't really show up on this photo, and Realta doesn't have enough of them). Here is a photo of pretty good black undercolor (this is a broken black Satin, so what looks like scattered white hairs is actually sheen) compared with the Champagne:

The other issue is that the steel photo is of a blue rabbit, rather than a black rabbit, so there is less obvious difference in the surface color and the undercolor. Here is a self blue with good medium color running deep toward the skin (what looks like white tipping is the Satin sheen) compared to the blue silver-tipped steel, with color not running very deep, plus possibly having faint ring color:

As a matter of fact, due to the agouti influence in a steel rabbit, it is rather in steel that you might see what looks like ring color, or several colors, on the hairshaft, especially in juniors. But the hairs appear to end in gold tips, rather than the black tips of a copper (aka chestnut agouti). Here is a 4-week-old steel Satin kit (black, gold-tipped), which has apparent ring color (which is possibly exaggerated due to maybe having the wideband gene - another story! ):

Here is a castor Rex, which is genetically the same as chestnut agouti, for comparison (image from Mink Hollow Rabbitry's excellent color guide to Rex coat colors, An Illustrated Guide to Rabbit Coat Color Genetics* [Mink Hollow Rabbitry]). Rex fur looks a bit different than Satin fur, but you can still see the black tips of an agouti, rather than what look like gold tips of a steel:

To help us know which rabbit is which, you can either name the thumbnails in the rabbit's name, or put the name with the image below it, like so:
Sweet Spot:

 

[Mckatie]

Thank you! Your presentation of the differences in fur encompassing the shading of the undercoat, the layers in agouti, in the various breeds, actually is helping it all make sense. The photos especially offering useful details.

The Champagne D 'Argent breed is an interesting study in colour change.

Last night I was outside looking at and in my rabbit coat colours. The Blue satin is very shimmery but the shorter hair on her feet were darker looking like boots. How often do you get the satin coats in your crosses? I bred my satins (Blue - which sounds better than Blue Cookie Crumble and Charlie )to my New Zealand as I haven't a satin buck.

I will reread these pages and give them much thought. I'm going to start a new notebook to aid in my clericity of understanding. I find this subject totally fascinating as well as fun.

Many thanks again, for your time and patience. I appreciate your knowledge and sharing.

 

[kusanar314]

How often do you get the satin coats in your crosses? I bred my satins (Blue - which sounds better than Blue Cookie Crumble and Charlie )to my New Zealand as I haven't a satin buck.

Unless the New Zealand has Satin somewhere in his pedigree, you should get 100% normal coats because the satin coat is recessive and only shows when you get 2 copies. If you breed a Satin cross buck back to a Satin doe, you should get 50/50 normal and satin coats out of that litter.

 

[reh]

a dark band on the surface of the fiber (black, chocolate, blue or lilac), then a yellowish band, then another dark band (this series can get repeated along the hairshaft)

I have never seen this, heard it once and i know this can be caused by x-radiation.
Please, if there are rabbits with more then one agouti band per hair, take an image for me.

For it not getting burried in wrong named threads i started a new on explaining the Function of Agouti and Extension Genes.

All of you telling about gold/silver tipped hairs, @judymac , @Alaska Satin , PLEASE pluck out some of them, put them on a white paper and take an image to show!

 

[Mckatie]

Unless the New Zealand has Satin somewhere in his pedigree, you should get 100% normal coats because the satin coat is recessive and only shows when you get 2 copies. If you breed a Satin cross buck back to a Satin doe, you should get 50/50 normal and satin coats out of that litter.

Thank you. I had forgotten that aspect.

 

[Mckatie]

CC New Zealand
View attachment 39345
I'd go with sable point <aaB_c(chl) D_ee> for that one as well (not silvered). @judymac calls it sable pearl, which I believe is the same color, just called "pearl" rather than "point" in angoras. To make things slightly more confusing, "smoke pearl" is a dilute sable in other breeds. But your rabbit does not look like a dilute to me.

The other option would be sallander, which is a non-extension self chinchilla <aaB_c(chd)D_ee>. In fact that would have been my first suggestion given that swirling pattern on its sides, but if this bunny came out of sables, it can't be chinchilla, since chin is dominant to sable and thus can't hide. But if there is chinchilla in its background (meaning at least one of its parents were not sable), sallander is what I'd call it.

Here is a photo of a sallander Holland Lop kit; it's a lighter color (they can really range in shade) but note the pattern on its sides. Image from Coat Color Photo Matrix
View attachment 39346

I was reading articles online when I read this" The REW can also carry the Tort/Sable Point color allele". @http://threelittleladiesrabbitry.com/geneticsprimer.php

Which makes sense because everything can be hidden under REW. But how many generations back would have effect? I was looking for a sable on the pedigree. CC is the first of his colouring in all of the litters. He has kits that look like his sister.Recently Muffin's may had 2 more kits that were similar to his sister but lighter. Is this a case of their silver colour being a chinchilla colour? Or the fact that Chinchilla rabbits can be either “cchd-cchd,” “cchd-cchl,” “cchd-ch,” or “cchd-c.” ...and somewhere back down the line there was a crossing?

Or simply one of the side rellies that are not on the pedigree ? The father is black. Many thanks as always!

The sable gene is incompletely dominant, meaning shadings are influenced by what accompanies sable or what is carried.@ The Sable Gene

Chinchilla rabbits can be either “cchd-cchd,” “cchd-cchl,” “cchd-ch,” or “cchd-c.”

CC's mum Muffin Mays CC'S Sister Ghost pedigree with colours....

 

[Alaska Satin]

I was reading articles online when I read this" The REW can also carry the Tort/Sable Point color allele". @http://threelittleladiesrabbitry.com/geneticsprimer.php

I believe that the "tort/sable point color allele" refers to the non-extension e, which produces tort and sable point, as well as orange and ermine. It's not directly related to sable - that is a result of an allele on the C series.
Self a and sable c(chl) + non-extension e makes sable point;
Agouti A and sable c(chl) + non-extension e makes sable frosty aka sable ermine;
Agouti A and chinchilla c(chd) + e makes frosty aka ermine;
Agouti A and full color C + e makes orange.

Yes, REW can hide e, but so can many other colors. Non-extension e is the most recessive of the E series and therefore can hide behind any other E allele: Dominant black E(D), Full Extension E, chinchilla c(chd), shaded/sable c(chl), or harlequin e(j). You'll usually only know it's there if you happen to get two copies ee in the same rabbit (although it can actually subtly affect some of the other E alleles if it's paired with them).

Which makes sense because everything can be hidden under REW. But how many generations back would have effect? I was looking for a sable on the pedigree. CC is the first of his colouring in all of the litters. He has kits that look like his sister.Recently Muffin's may had 2 more kits that were similar to his sister but lighter. Is this a case of their silver colour being a chinchilla colour? Or the fact that Chinchilla rabbits can be either “cchd-cchd,” “cchd-cchl,” “cchd-ch,” or “cchd-c.” ...and somewhere back down the line there was a crossing?

Or simply one of the side rellies that are not on the pedigree ? The father is black. Many thanks as always!

The sable gene is incompletely dominant, meaning shadings are influenced by what accompanies sable or what is carried.@ The Sable Gene

Chinchilla rabbits can be either “cchd-cchd,” “cchd-cchl,” “cchd-ch,” or “cchd-c.”

CC's mum Muffin Mays CC'S Sister Ghost pedigree with colours....

Because e is nearly completely recessive, it can hide for many generations, or it can completely drop out in a single generation. It doesn't matter how many relatives carry it; if one or both parents don't have a copy, a rabbit won't get it. And even if both parents carry one copy of it, the kit may not get it. Genetics is, in large part, the luck of the draw. Only if at least one parent is homozygous for an allele - whether dominant or recessive - can you feel confident that any (and every) kit will get it.

I see on Muffin's pedigree that her color is listed as "silver," which isn't a variety in New Zealands, or any other U.S. breed, for that matter. In my opinion it's not super helpful in discerning what you're dealing with, and may actually do more to confuse things due to the fact that in rabbits, "silver" frequently refers to silvering from the si allele, while "silver-tipped" refers to steel E(S), which is completely different.

But from the single photo, I'd say Muffin is an agouti, either a chinchilla <A_B_c(chd)_D_E_> or a sable chinchilla <A_B_c(chl)_D_E_> (possibly with the wideband gene making her so light for a chin, and her agouti markings so prominent). I would have leaned toward sable chin just because of the slightly off-colored (rather than crisp black and white) ticking, especially on the edges of her ears - in this one photo, on my screen, it looks more sable-y than black. But that can easily be an effect of the photo and/or my computer monitor, and since she produced ermines (the does), she would need to be chinchilla... unless the does are sable ermines aka sable frosties... or unless...

Unless CC's black sire was actually a self chin...aaarrgghh! We'll leave that aside for the moment, but keep in the back of your mind the possibility that some or all of your "black" kits could be self chins. Also, if the pedigree is correct (at this point I have my doubts) the black sire could instead be a self steel aa E(S)_ .

So anyway, back to CC, which I now feel more inclined to call a sallander, i.e. a non-extension ee self aa chinchilla c(chd). You said that you

bred him to a black (which carried the silver or is it steel?) kits were: 2 rew 1 chocolate,4 black (w silver gene)

which means he carries a REW c behind his chinchilla c(chd), and a chocolate b behind his black B, so we can hypothesize that he's <aa Bb c(chd) c D_ ee>. The D is there because he is dense color, not dilute, and although he could carry a dilute d, we just don't know, so we put that dash after the D.

I don't know what you mean by "black (w silver gene)" kits but we'll leave that aside for now, too.

Then you said you bred him

to (top pic) a broken black cinnamon tipped doe,Smokey Jo (out of Rew and a black carrying the silver gene) ....kits were: 4 silver tipped body and points, 1 chocolate, 2 rew.

The chocolate and REW kits confirm the genotype above, at least in regard to the a, b and c. However, I don't know what you mean by "broken black cinnamon tipped" doe or "silver tipped body and points."

I'm thinking this is the doe Smokey Jo:

But this is not a broken colored rabbit. Broken refers to a color "broken" up by areas of white. Some brokens (called charlies) have very little color, sometimes only around their ears, eyes and nose:

(image from Rabbit Color Genetics: Pattern Gene EN for Brokens, Solids, & Charlies)

while some others (called booted) are almost completely colored except for some white on their feet, belly and chest:

(image from Marked)

Smokey doesn't have any white that I can see. You said something about white on her feet (unless you meant a different rabbit since I see you said "him"):

The dark hair from Smokey. As a new zealand they considered him a solid/broken in the sense of white paws.

but if you're referring to paler foot pads, that's typical of sables and not considered white. Nothing in the New Zealand standard says anything about white paws - in NZs, broken colored is the same as broken in all other breeds.

Anyway, I initially suggested that Smokey Jo could be a silvered sable point (which genetically, is a non-extension ee sable c(chl)_ with the gene for silvering si. That would be <aaB_c(chl)_D_ee _si>.
But now that you've posted these photos of her fur

I'm now inclined to call her sable steel, <Aa Bb c(chl)c D_ E(S)_>.

To be steel, she'd have to have an agouti A, and to make self chocolate, she'd have to carry self a. She's black based so B, but again to make chocolate kits, she has to carry b. She's sable c(chl) but carries c to make REW kits. She's dense color D, but it's unknown whether she carries dilute d so we leave that a dash. If she's a steel she's E(S), but I can't guess whether she's carrying a non-extension e since I'm not sure what you mean by silver tipped body and points.

Is this one of them? If so, you would call that ticking or frosting, not silver tipping - silver tipped is usually used to refer to what looks like white tips on dark hairs, not the other way around.

I can't be sure, but do I see pink eyes? If so, this is a himalayan c(h), yet another allele on the C series, which would not make sense at all because we know the genotype of both CC and Smokey Jo. Neither is himi, and they both must carry REW, so there's no room for c(h). If those are pink eyes, either I've got something terribly wrong (which certainly could happen!), or that kit isn't from CC x Smokey Jo.

Hopefully those eyes are actually brown, maybe with a ruby cast, because in that case it could be an ermine aka frosty (non-extension chinchilla), a sable frosty (non-extension sable chinchilla) or a sable point (non-extension self sable), any of which would make sense. (I think CC's sib Ghost is an ermine or a sable frosty.) If that is the case, it would be very reasonable to call Smokey Jo sable steel (carrying self, chocolate, REW and non-extension e) <Aa Bb c(chl)c D_ E(S)e> , and CC sallander (carrying chocolate and REW) <aa Bb c(chd) c D_ ee>.

From these parents, a sable point kit could get either Aa or 2 copies of self a, one or two copies of black B, a dominant sable c(chl) from the dam with a recessive REW c from the sire, one or two copies of dense D, and two copies of non-extension e.

You still have that steel E(S) in the mix, but you won't see that in self rabbits, and it is excluded - no room for it - in non-extension colors like ermine. It'll only show up in agoutis like Smokey Jo.

Oh my goodness, what a workout!!! Thanks! I'll be watching for more photos, since I have a feeling we're not done.

 

[Mckatie]

Thank you. This is like a tapestry.

1. Smokey Jo is a female with a white boot. Some of her siblings/rellies had two. One of her brothers is beautiful light brown....Where Velvet looks more seal. So what I'm understanding is that the silver is a result of the A gene combines with ES?

2) The kit's eyes are dark. So ticking/frosting is not silver tip which is "white". I feel that because of the colours not being under the New Zealand umbrella of: red, white, black , or broken people simply make up their own colour names. This kit looks off white with silver tips. It actually looks darker than the other kit who appeared to have less ticking. CC's sister Ghost is white with the silver ticking - not as dense as Muffins May.

3) CC, Smokey Jo (doe) and Chocolate Truffle (doe) I believe all carry the c ,b and e genes. I feel that the two does (and Velvet, sister to Smokey Jo who are out of a red doe(Rose) -out of Muffin's May and a REW (out of 2 REW ) all have similar hair colouring of black with steel showing up later. Smokey Jo is the lightest -I bought her for that reason from a woman whose lines are connected to my own rabbits. I was hoping for a chocolate...and siamese slanted colouring like CC
..obviously not ARBA but I like them.

4)CC's sire the black ...I will look at him closely come Monday as I'm popping over there to pick up a chocolate rex buck. There are 2 black kits from the first litter...I feel Poe had some random white hairs, but appeared blacker than Twix....

5)<<<<<<<<<I'm now inclined to call her sable steel, <Aa Bb c(chl)c D_ E(S)_>.>>> I will say that the camera in the phone is not 100 accurate.Then again, neither is my monitor. However, the layers of colours are still layers. I thought to dig out my old camera. Yesterday, I took photos of the chocolate kit from CC/Chocolate Truffle - Chocolatte - because he looks like he is changing colours to lighter sides with a darker head and saddle.

REW kit in front of ticked . Charlie satin

 

[Mckatie]

This is Chocolatte out of CC and Chocolate Truffle. He already looks like he is changing. Chocolatte was born on Halloween..so 13 weeks. He was simply chocolate until the last 2 weeks perhaps. Mum is the photo with kits. She was black when i bought her.

 

[Alaska Satin]

2) The kit's eyes are dark. So ticking/frosting is not silver tip which is "white". I feel that because of the colours not being under the New Zealand umbrella of: red, white, black , or broken people simply make up their own colour names.

I feel your pain, er, frustration.

By the way, since 2016, New Zealands are also accepted in blue - which is a dilute self black <aaB_C_ddE_>.

The common names of coat colors in rabbits derive from some breeds with a very long history, as well as breeds that are fairly new. Different fashions of the times impacted the variety names, with the very old breed Dutch "gray" being the name for a low-rufus chestnut agouti (which also used to be called "gray-brown"), while the newer breeds like Jersey Wooly tend to adopt more genetics-oriented names like "pointed white" instead of himalayan or californian, all three of which refer to the same pattern. That's why I usually add the genotype I'm talking about: not to be a nerd, but to clarify that when I say, for instance, "cinnamon <aaB_C_D_ee>" I'm talking about a tort, not a chocolate agouti <A_bbC_D_E>, which was called cinnamon in the past in some breeds.

There is a move underway to standardize variety names, which may help newcomers sort things out a little faster. (I believe here are some drawbacks to that move, but that's a different topic...)

Nonetheless, naming varieties on a pedigree doesn't have to be a morass that no one wants to enter. First, purebred animals usually only have accepted varieties on their pedigrees. It's true that many NZWs hide all kinds of colors, and when you cross a purebred NZW with a NZR, for instance, you can get all kinds of surprises, but you don't usually find silvering or sable on a NZ pedigree.

When I've got an unaccepted variety to enter on a pedigree, if there is more than one name for it, I usually choose the most genetically-descriptive one (e.g. on a Satin pedigree I'd write "chocolate agouti" rather than "cinnamon" for <A_bbC_D_E>).

But describing coat colors and patterns can be difficult, especially when there are so many other factors; for instance, modifiers, interactions among different genes, and even ambient temperature can produce significant variations in a single variety - sable and sable point are good examples. Here are two rabbits that are both sable point:

First image from https://hickoryridgehollands.com/holland-lop-color-guide; second is my daughter's Holland doe Sleeping Beauty.

Since we made all of these breeds and varieties up - none of them are intrinsically anything, they're basically all rabbits, with varying amounts and placement of eumelanin and pheomelanin pigmentation or lack thereof - we can call them whatever we want. However, there are some conventions used by the people who talk about these things the most.

Some helpful definitions (ARBA has definitions in the SOP but these are my own versions, to try to help you sort it out):
Variety: that is what the ARBA calls the combination of coat color and pattern. That way you can distinguish between black (self) and black (otter) and black (tort), for instance. So I try to ask, "What variety is the rabbit?" rather than, "What color is the rabbit?"
Ticking: This means the perception of tips on hairs that are of a different color than the base. It most frequently is used to describe agoutis, so ticking usually refers to a darker color, but the Silver Marten breed does use the term ticking for the silver hairs that spread from its belly up the sides and rump.
Silver: In rabbits, pretty much, silver means white. Silvering means white hairs interspersed throughout a colored coat due to the si allele. (Although, the Silver Marten SOP uses "ticking" to refer to the white hairs on its sides and rump).
Steel or steeling: This describes the appearance of lighter tips on the hairs of a darker-colored rabbit due to the steel E(S) allele's interaction with the agouti A. It has nothing to do with silvering; you can have both steeling and silvering on a single rabbit.
- Gold-tipped refers to a yellowish/orange-ish color to the steel tipping
- Silver-tipped refers to a white or pearly color to the steel tipping
Frosting, Haze or Veil: This describes the dark tips on various light-colored rabbits, like Czech Frosties which are ermines aka frosties <A_B_c(chd)_D_ee> or possibly sable frosties <A_B_c(chl)_D_ee>; I'm not sure about that. It can also describe the dark tips on body fur that himalayan aka pointed white <aaB_c(h)_D_E_> kits sometimes get in the nest box as a result of temperature and/or humidity:

(You can see how much like a sable point this looks, but the pink eyes give it away; it developed into a perfectly normal pointed white.)

 

[Alaska Satin]

This kit looks off white with silver tips. It actually looks darker than the other kit who appeared to have less ticking. CC's sister Ghost is white with the silver ticking - not as dense as Muffins May.

Again, off-white with darker tips would not be called silver tips, rather it would be clearer to call it tipping or frosting or a haze. Ghost, I believe, is an ermine aka frosty (whether she's the chin version or the sable version, I do not know). Frosties/ermines can range from almost pure white with dark eyes, to heavily frosted rabbits that look almost gray. The Czech Frosty is in the middle range:

Image from 2022 ARBA Reno Exhibit – Czech Frosty

Muffins May, on the other hand, appears to have agouti banding and markings around her jaw, eyes, etc, which is why I'd call her a chinchilla or sable chin aka sable agouti.

1. Smokey Jo is a female with a white boot. Some of her siblings/rellies had two. One of her brothers is beautiful light brown....Where Velvet looks more seal. So what I'm understanding is that the silver is a result of the A gene combines with ES?

3) CC, Smokey Jo (doe) and Chocolate Truffle (doe) I believe all carry the c ,b and e genes. I feel that the two does (and Velvet, sister to Smokey Jo who are out of a red doe(Rose) -out of Muffin's May and a REW (out of 2 REW ) all have similar hair colouring of black with steel showing up later. Smokey Jo is the lightest -I bought her for that reason from a woman whose lines are connected to my own rabbits. I was hoping for a chocolate...and siamese slanted colouring like CC
..obviously not ARBA but I like them.

Okay, if Smokey Jo has a white foot, she's probably a booted broken. There are other genes that can cause random white areas (e.g. Dutch du, Vienna v) but we'll go with broken.

The silver (white) hairs on Smokey Jo could come either from A + E(S) which would be steeling, or it could come from the silvering gene si (and it's possible to have both). Usually you'd look for agouti markings (jaw, eye cirles, belly, etc.) on a rabbit that's A, but the steel E(S) can sometimes reduce those markings to where you can't see them at all. So I can't really tell you which it is on that rabbit, other than the pics of the fur look more like steel than silvering to me.

If Smokey Jo made REWs and chocolates, she definitely carries b and c. If she's out of a red, she definitely carries e since a red is ee, and can give nothing but an e to its kits.

I think CC's a sallander, but I could still be convinced he's a sable point. If you want more CC-colored rabbits, breeding him back to his dam might get you some. It really depends on whether the dam is chinchilla or sable chin.

4)CC's sire the black ...I will look at him closely come Monday as I'm popping over there to pick up a chocolate rex buck. There are 2 black kits from the first litter...I feel Poe had some random white hairs, but appeared blacker than Twix....

A self chin will look exactly the same as a self black, except sometimes - not always - the self chin can have blue-gray or marbled eyes. Stray white hairs really shouldn't have anything to say about whether he's self chin or self black.

5)<<<<<<<<<I'm now inclined to call her sable steel, <Aa Bb c(chl)c D_ E(S)_>.>>> I will say that the camera in the phone is not 100 accurate.Then again, neither is my monitor. However, the layers of colours are still layers.

If you mean layers of colors as in ring color, that would mean chinchilla or sable chinchilla, as opposed to the interspersed white hairs of a steel. Here is chinchilla ring color - you can see that there are more than two regions of color on each hair:

 

[Mckatie]

Thank you so much for your sharing! I am learning daily!

I don't own CC's mum nor the sire. Smokey Jo.....her grandsire is out of a broken steel. I have a broken black that is related to her - Oreo. When Muffins May breeds to Ghost White she throws brokens. I would be ok with keeping a frosty kit and breeding her to CC or Ruby, a REW or Chocolatte. I do like the sallanders and ermines. I chose your daughter's bunny at first sight because I like that colour better than the rabbit on the left. As long as I keep working on "meat pen rabbits" I'm going to have fun with the colours. This is a very interesting journey. Thank you for being a part of it.

 

[Mckatie]

@Alaska Satin

So today my question is about Chocolatte and the new chocolate bunny (no pics posted)

In the photos Chocolatte is showing a darker saddle with darker face and points... his sides are growing lighter. He is 13 weeks old. I noticed the new chocolate kit has darker points within the chocolate coat as did Chocolatte.

Is this more of a shaded rabbit colour like :
chocolate seal aabbC(chl)C(chl)D_E_ ?
Or Chocolate Sable, aa bb c(chl)_ D_ E_
Or shades of the basic chocolate - aabbC_D_E

With :
CC narrowed down to these possibilities...- chocolate sallander [aa bb cchd– D- ee] or sallander [aa Bb c(chd) c D_ ee] or was it chocolate point? [ aab_c(chl)_D_ee]

bred to:
Smokey Jo - booted sable steel (carrying self, chocolate, REW and non-extension e) <Aa Bb c(chl)c D_ E(S)e
and Chocolate Truffle I think is very similar just a bit darker- sable steel (carrying self, chocolate, REW and non-extension e) <Aa Bb c(chl)c D_ E(S)e
Thank you for your thought!

 

[judymac]

All of you telling about gold/silver tipped hairs, @judymac , @Alaska Satin , PLEASE pluck out some of them, put them on a white paper and take an image to show!

I don't have samples quite the way you wanted, but did the best I could. I don't raise steels, so I can't take photos for you straight from the rabbit, but I had some steel fiber. I put them in a separate thread, https://rabbittalk.com/threads/close-up-hair-photos-for-banding-ticking.37095/#post-359934

 

[Alaska Satin]

In the photos Chocolatte is showing a darker saddle with darker face and points... his sides are growing lighter. He is 13 weeks old. I noticed the new chocolate kit has darker points within the chocolate coat as did Chocolatte.

Is this more of a shaded rabbit colour like :
chocolate seal aabbC(chl)C(chl)D_E_ ?
Or Chocolate Sable, aa bb c(chl)_ D_ E_
Or shades of the basic chocolate - aabbC_D_E

In the photos, on my screen, Chocolatte looks chocolate in the first photo (head) but not so much in the others, so I'll defer to your first-hand view on that. However, black-based sables do go through a very chocolate-looking phase. The photos below are sables, not seals, so their color is less intense, but maybe you can see what I mean by chocolatey:

If Chocolatte is developing that kind of shading, that would put him in the shaded c(chl) column, and since he's so very dark, I'd probably go with seal c(chl) c(chl). So I'd say either seal aabbC(chl)C(chl)D_E_ or chocolate seal aabbc(chl)c(chl)D_E_. If he's shaded, that would rule out self; generally the only noticeable color variations selfs have are due to molt or sun.

With :
CC narrowed down to these possibilities...- chocolate sallander [aa bb cchd– D- ee] or sallander [aa Bb c(chd) c D_ ee] or was it chocolate point? [ aab_c(chl)_D_ee]

I don't see anything on my screen in the photos of CC that would make me want to call him chocolate (though he could carry it). My first thought is sallander aa B_ c(chd) c D_ ee, or I could accept sable point aaB_c(chl)_D_ee. The main difference is whether he's got a chin c(chd) or a shaded c(chl).

and Chocolate Truffle I think is very similar just a bit darker- sable steel (carrying self, chocolate, REW and non-extension e) <Aa Bb c(chl)c D_ E(S)e

Smokey Jo looks like she has a lot more contrast between her body and shaded areas, so I'd call her sable, while Chocolate Truffle is so dark she may seal -so possibly seal steel Aa B_ c(chl)c(chl) D_E(S)e. In that case she would not be able to carry REW c, and I don't know if she carries chocolate b or not. You can be sure she carries non-extension e, though, since her dam was red.

 

[Mckatie]

In the photos, on my screen, Chocolatte looks chocolate in the first photo (head) but not so much in the others, so I'll defer to your first-hand view on that. However, black-based sables do go through a very chocolate-looking phase. The photos below are sables, not seals, so their color is less intense, but maybe you can see what I mean by chocolatey:
View attachment 39496View attachment 39497
If Chocolatte is developing that kind of shading, that would put him in the shaded c(chl) column, and since he's so very dark, I'd probably go with seal c(chl) c(chl). So I'd say either seal aabbC(chl)C(chl)D_E_ or chocolate seal aabbc(chl)c(chl)D_E_. If he's shaded, that would rule out self; generally the only noticeable color variations selfs have are due to molt or sun.


I don't see anything on my screen in the photos of CC that would make me want to call him chocolate (though he could carry it). My first thought is sallander aa B_ c(chd) c D_ ee, or I could accept sable point aaB_c(chl)_D_ee. The main difference is whether he's got a chin c(chd) or a shaded c(chl).


View attachment 39499View attachment 39498
Smokey Jo looks like she has a lot more contrast between her body and shaded areas, so I'd call her sable, while Chocolate Truffle is so dark she may seal -so possibly In that case she would not be able to carry REW c, and I don't know if she carries chocolate b or not. You can be sure she carries non-extension e, though, since her dam was red.

Thank you! Since Chocolate Truffle is the mother of Chocolatte and 2 REW (Ruby and Piglet) then she wouldn't be the seal steel Aa B_ c(chl)c(chl) D_E(S)e.. Maybe Aa Bb Cc D_E(S)e ? Chocolate Truffle is out of a REW and a Chocolate. There is red on her sire's side.

Smokey Jo also had a chocolate, 2 REW as well as the Frosties.

CC sired Chocolatte and the new "brown" kit.
<CC<, My first thought is sallander aa B_ c(chd) c D_ ee, or I could accept sable point aaB_c(chl)_D_ee. The main difference is whether he's got a chin c(chd) or a shaded c(chl).>

Gotcha. This is actually starting to make sence. I really appreciate your help in my elimination process. I was playing on the omni colour calculator. I think I'd rather he was a sallander.. The new "frosties" have the points that are a grey verses brown.

CC's mum Muffin's May had 2 kits two months ago with the "frosty" look although one's colour was not as dominant (dense?). This is only the 2nd time she has thrown "frosty". I will see tomorrow how their colours have developed as I'm transporting the "frosty" boy for a friend. I would like to have more "Frosties" and sallanders as they are supper pretty.

I looked at Chocolatte again and I saw his points did not appear darker.(Not like Sleeping Beauty's) I took the photos in my kitchen . I would say that the ears/head are darker because that shows up in the photos, but he could slowly be changing. Or simply the change in lighting. The light brown diamond on his forehead showed up a few weeks ago. The new kit has darker ears but doesn't look like the picture of shaded either. Thanks Again!

 

[mrscllc]

Remember that frosted kit we assumed was frosted on the rump because of the cold temperature? Mom had her second litter yesterday and there are 4 pinkie kits, but only one with a darker purplish bum like the first kit. It was in the 60s on birthday but did get down to the 40s last night. Mom does a great job of keeping them covered and has plenty of fur in there.

Here are 2 side by side, so show what I mean.

 

[judymac]

Here are 2 side by side, so show what I mean.

Great photo comparison, it will be interesting to see how the color changes as they grow. Please keep us posted!

 

[mrscllc]

That litter was completely smashed by mom, so I cannot compare... the other purplish bum from the first litter this mom had grew out to have grey tips, but a white undercoat at 11 weeks.

I mention this because her newest litter had 2 kits that appeared to have very light purple spots on the skin that have grown out to be white under grey tips. I wonder if these spots will "fall out" with the first molt.


Anyone ever see this before?

 

[judymac]

Looks like a "snowball", a word for two different conditions with the same trait--the dark color only goes a short distance into the fiber before the hair turns white. They got the name snowball because they look like "dirty snowballs", just a little dark color on an otherwise whitish coat. When I look at the closeup of the spots, I see something fascinating:

It doesn't enlarge very clearly, but if you look in front of the finger, can you see the hair shaft with sections of white, then color (looks rather lilac/light chocolate on my monitor), then more white and repeated? I suppose it could be reflection, but it gives a very salt & pepper appearance. I know @reh mentioned that dilute colors when put under a microscope do that, that the dilute gene is actually a transportation of color problem, and the color could spread out more than normal within the hairshaft. @reh also mentioned that snowballs may be caused by some gene(s) that turn off the pigment prematurely, causing all the white on the hair. I don't know what would cause that, but something must, because I have snowball rabbits as well. Can you see how little of the hair below has color (a little on the tips at right)?


They say there is a juvenile snowball type that the rabbits will grow out of. Mine are adults and don't grow out of it, same symptom, probably different causes. Yours is another interesting case. I don't know what the apparent 'ticking' is caused by in your rabbits.