Trinity Oaks' grain-feed mix

[Zab]

What is it the rabbits need from te grain that they can't get from hay and alfalfa? What nutritions are they missing out? Is it only protein? Or Energy? Or some vitamins or anything else?

I want to know what they need it for and why - first then can I decide on what they actually need. If barley can replace wheat etc.. or if there's something different that may be easier to find in my area.

Does any of you get analyzed hay, so you know the values?<br /><br />__________ Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:15 am __________<br /><br />My thinking is ths; rabbits doesn't eat grain by nature.
I realize that it would be near impossible to both learn the right amount and types of all food they eat in the wild, sand to go out and get it.. all herbs, plants, leaves, bark, grass, roots etc. So yeah, I buy that hay might not be enough on its own.
I also see that some breeds are bred to grow fast which changes the needs of amount of nutritients.. what hapens if those breeds get the same diet as a wild rabbit? Will they get sick or just grow more slowly?

But I'd like to learn exactly what it is in grains that rabbits need and won't get from the forage we easily can offer? I bet starch - which grain has a lot of - isn't ideal for a bunny-belly.. like it isn't for horses. They function on it and perhaps it's a necessary evil, but I can't think of anything in their natural diet being so rich on starch.. am I wrong? Some roots are rich in starch, but not that many of the kind we have here, at least. Sugars are generally bad for abbits, and then sugars are way more common in their diet than starches (grass has sugar, greens as sugar, fallen fruits has sugar, berries has sugar etc)

So what nutrient is it we're compensating for with grain?

I'm nt quite sure where thy get salt and minerals from in nature.. nettles has a lot of minerals. But I can see how giving that would be good and even necessary

I'm not trying to question you, I just want to know and learn the whys.. not only the whats..

 

[skysthelimit]

It's not that there is a nutritional compensation with the grain. It's more like grain is more economical for some, more readily available for some than pellets are, and more of a choice of conscience, because there are quite a few feeds that contain animal byproducts, and all pellets contain dyes and man made chemicals. People who have made the choice to raise there own source of chemical free healthy meat want to feed their buns chemical free healthy food.

Some breeds will grow slower on the grain diet, more because it does offer less protein, and that is only sometimes. Eventually the rabbits will adjust, not die but grow slower. I had a doe grow much faster than the others just being fed scraps and mulberry leaves. believe I will feed a lot of mulberry leaves this summer!

As far as hay, I have no idea who to ask or how to get the hay analyzed. Like so many things in the country I purchase, I just pick it up, take it home and hope it works.

 

[Zab]

If there's no nutritional compensation from grain and people only buy it because it's cheap; why feed grain at all? Why mix diferent types of grain? Why not only gve hay and alfalfa?

I'm not talking pellet vs grain, I'm talking of why giving anything except hay and alfafa? What is it they need that hay and alfalfa won't give them, but grain/pellets will?
Pellets are hardly natural either

 

[Mary Ann's Rabbitry]

hay and greens should be there main food source... then add pellets or grains as a supplement..But Maggies is right.. what they put in pellets. some have tallow in it ..

 

[Zab]

Supplementing what? Thats my ques tion. Why is hay not enough?

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

I was able to get alfalfa hay at the local feed store in town. It is compressed alfalfa. The gentleman that assisted me said it is equal to a regular bale of hay. Is compressed alfalfa hay the same as cubes?

No, it is not--

The compressed alfalfa has a LOT of dust in it-- caused by the leaves crumbling. I find that a lot of what I paid for when I bought my first and last bale, for 20 bucks, is not getting into the rabbits- The only saving grace-- the dust gets into the compost pile.

The cubes are made of chopped hay, and extruded in a manner that keeps everything together-- I have not been able to tell what type of ingredient 'glues' the cubes together. I find the shiny sides of them to be a source of questions, but so far, they are far more economical than a compressed bale, and the rabbits are not suffering any ill effects that may be caused by production additives.<br /><br />__________ Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:51 am __________<br /><br />

Supplementing what? Thats my ques tion. Why is hay not enough?

Depending on the source-- hay may not have 'micronutrients' that help an animal's body system work at their optimal levels. Locally, an all hay diet will be very deficient in selenium, leading to failed breedings, miscarriages, low birth weights. So, one supplements the diet with the proper salt/mineral block.

The "weeds" and other plants that some of us feed, by their very nature, incorporate micro-nutrients into the diet that a grass type hay cannot. Each plant takes up nutrients from soils in differing levels/concentrations. Dandelions for example, are a good source of Dietary calcium. The roots of a dandelion reach deeper into the soil than those of many grasses (wheat, oats, timothy, etc)-- and calcium is buried DEEP compared to what grass roots can reach. even root structure affects the availability of nutrients to plants. Some nutrients are so bound to the soil, NOTHING can take them up.

I just finished reading a soil science book--tons of useful information in it-- the next step for me is to find a good text source on 'reading' weeds-- what they say about what is in the soil, or what the soil is lacking.

 

[Zab]

Well that goes for minerals but not for the grain or grain recepy which is what im really wondering about. This thread starts with a recepy of mixed grains but noone can say why grains are fed at all or why they're mixed like they are.. did the question about wheat and barley get answered? The one on if you can use 2 parts of the one instead of both.. it was early in the thread. I get that the recepies work well but noone seem to know why..

 

[Mary Ann's Rabbitry]

just like trinity said.. She took it from the rabbit book,which has study rabbits for a long tim. .. If you can feed it to a horse ,, you can feed it to a rabbit. What did they feed rabbits in the old days where was no pellets... What was around like grain.. They all had grain to feed there chickens.

 

[Frecs]

Just some thoughts, not fully edited and put together, in response to posts in this thread....

Many of us prefer not to use pelleted foods because there are questions as to the contents and quality of the pellets. I don't feed my dogs commercial foods and I want to get away from feeding my rabbits pellets. I haven't gotten there yet, but I hope to. The question then becomes, what to feed instead? What do rabbits in the wild eat? What did people pre-pellets feed their meat rabbits? What do people in countries without access to pellets feed their rabbits? From these questions, we can begin to formulate a "recipe" for feeding our rabbits. Oh, and the other issue is availability. I, for example, can not find a local source for barley and mail order is out of the question. So, I can't include barley in my formulations but others can get it and get it cheap.

I am one who believes that variety is a key to ensuring the widest possible array of nutrients and phytochemicals in the diet (for humans and animals). I have a MA in nutrition so I can say with confidence that science does not yet even come close to having identified all the elements in foods (aka phytonutrients or phytochemicals) much less their benefits to our health.

So, I say all that to say this: there is no one perfect feed formula. We do the best we can and continue to adjust and tweak.

Grains: rabbits in the wild do eat them but not as the main source of calories/nutrients. They do serve as a good concentrated source of the nutrients contained in the plant as a whole. Using a variety will help cover the amino acid needs (each one being short of one or more but in combo, more likely to hit the essentials).

Greens/weeds: definitely a major food group for rabbits. They eat these in huge quantity and variety.

Bark/twigs: another major food group for rabbits which provides an abundance of nutrients as well as fiber and keeping the teeth trimmed.

Fruits: not sure how much a wild rabbit eats. Domestic rabbits need to limit these due to the sugars' affect on the digestive system's flora balance.

Dried grasses/dried leaves: wild rabbits' "hay" -- probably more of their subsistence diet during winter.

 

[Zab]

So you don't know why. Okay, I'll stop asking and see if I can figure that out somehow else.
All I want to know is what it is in the mix of grain that makes it good to use as a supplement to hay and what's in it that there isn't enough in with just hay and alfalfa.

While knowing ''this works well and comes from a good source, so I'll use it" is good and all, I want to know as much as I can in order to be able to trust my judgement with things. A lot of things work well but could better, or could be more convenient, if it's changed. For example; I can't replace the wheat in the recepy with barley if I don't know why the wheat is there in the first place.. does it hold something barley doesn't? Or was it cheaper at the time? Perhaps too much barley would be harmful?

I rather feed grainfree, personally.. that's also a reason to why I want to know what the grain does for their diet - if I can change that to something more natural for them (some things are more available now than back then) I'd do it. I still think grains are better than pellet, and maybe they're necassary.

I'm NOT saying the recepy is bad, I'm sure it works as well as any pellet or even better.. I just want to know why it's good. And if noone knows the answer to my question, that's okay too.. I'll just have to try and find out by other means. I'm not good with maths but I'll see if I can find something out, calculating feed stats..maybe one of the online horse food calculators will give me numbers I can compare to rabbit needs.
It would be nice to know ''the grain just adds energy" or "It's for vitamin E and B" or whatnot

If I find sout what it is a regular hay lacks and grain adds, I'll let you know, for fun

Frecs: Thank you! So what I need to look for is among other things amino acids

 

[Frecs]

So you don't know why. Okay, I'll stop asking and see if I can figure that out somehow else.
All I want to know is what it is in the mix of grain that makes it good to use as a supplement to hay and what's in it that there isn't enough in with just hay and alfalfa.

Zab, hay is fiber. Alfalfa is protein and calcium. Grains contain protein (each one with a different protein profile --meaning with different amino acids. No grain except for quinoa is a complete protein.) Can rabbits live on just protein and fiber? Seems they can as many require of them. Is there a full spectrum of nutrients in hay and alfalfa to provide the rabbits all they need for optimal health? NOPE.

While knowing ''this works well and comes from a good source, so I'll use it" is good and all, I want to know as much as I can in order to be able to trust my judgement with things. A lot of things work well but could better, or could be more convenient, if it's changed. For example; I can't replace the wheat in the recepy with barley if I don't know why the wheat is there in the first place.. does it hold something barley doesn't? Or was it cheaper at the time? Perhaps too much barley would be harmful?

Go to feedipedia or nutritiondata.com and look up each grain and see what they contain. I don't think feedipedia lists a breakdown of the amino acid profile for each grain but nutritiondata.com does. If you just must have the full comparison, go for it and be sure to report back so we can all learn!

I rather feed grainfree, personally.. that's also a reason to why I want to know what the grain does for their diet - if I can change that to something more natural for them (some things are more available now than back then) I'd do it. I still think grains are better than pellet, and maybe they're necassary.

On the macronutrient level, grains (unsprouted) are protein and carbohydrates and some minerals. Sprouted grains would be higher on the protein, lower on the carbs, higher on the other nutrients. On a micronutrient level...well, you have to take it grain by grain but likely nothing in them can't be replaced with something else. I believe that wild rabbits do eat grains but since they eat what has spilled on the ground, that would be a small portion of their overall diets as I mentioned before. Not using grains in your rabbits' diet will require that you work extra hard at providing protein. Seems alfalfa can provide that if you can get it and afford it. Grains are cheaper for me to obtain than alfalfa. There are other plants that are sources of good protein levels (mulberry for one...there are others. check out feedipedia.)

I'm NOT saying the recepy is bad, I'm sure it works as well as any pellet or even better.. I just want to know why it's good. And if noone knows the answer to my question, that's okay too.. I'll just have to try and find out by other means. I'm not good with maths but I'll see if I can find something out, calculating feed stats..maybe one of the online horse food calculators will give me numbers I can compare to rabbit needs.

Zab, more is NOT known about nutrition than is known. Whether you are talking about nutrition for humans or animals. We know far less than we don't know.

It would be nice to know ''the grain just adds energy" or "It's for vitamin E and B" or whatnot

As mentioned, grains are protein, energy, and vitamins/minerals. Each has a different profile.

If I find sout what it is a regular hay lacks and grain adds, I'll let you know, for fun

Your assignment is to seek out the data, crunch the numbers, and report back what you discover.

Frecs: Thank you! So what I need to look for is among other things amino acids

Yes, look for amino acid profiles. Each grain will be limited in certain amino acids. Some amino acids are "essential" meaning that the body can not create that amino acid from others, others are non-essential because the body can take other amino acids and create them, and some are "limiting" because they are typically used for creating other amino acids and so how much of them is there (or not) affects how much re-creating the body can do.

What I don't know is what amino acids are "essential" for a rabbit, versus which are "non-essential" or "limiting". I studied human nutrition, not rabbit nutrition! :x

 

[skysthelimit]

You can use just hay, and a salt block. Seriously rabbits can live on that. But they would not grow as fast as they would on grains, hay does not have enough fat. They would be lean like wild rabbits, and probably would not produces as well either. They certainly wouldn't have beautiful fur coats either.

But I can say, that the quality of hay I can get, I would not want as the main staple of my rabbits diet.

I can't think of anyone who breaks down there food like that. Even people don't. We mix a variety of foods we think will cover our nutritional needs, so the grain mix is a mix of high nutritional grains that should cover the nutritional needs of animals that eat grains, based on hundreds of years of watching what grains animals eat and feeding domesticated animals grains.

 

[Frecs]

I can't think of anyone who breaks down there food like that. Even people don't. We mix a variety of foods we think will cover our nutritional needs, so the grain mix is a mix of high nutritional grains that should cover the nutritional needs of animals that eat grains, based on hundreds of years of watching what grains animals eat and feeding domesticated animals grains.

Actually, there is one group of people that I can think of that do indepth nutritional breakdowns of their food: The CR Society.

Most normal people who have a real life to live, do as you say -- eat a wide variety and get on with life.

When I first started feeding my dogs a home-made diet, I was super anal about it...analyzing everything to the Nth degree. That didn't last long because I realized I was making myself crazy. Then, I relaxed and just decided to give them a nice variety of foods and they and I are happier for it.

 

[Zab]

Thanks I'm currently running numbers through a horse food calculator.. I just hope it will say more than ''you need more of.." and actually give me numbers
I know that we lack a big deal of knowledge, but lets use what we have and try to think for the rest. Our best tool is our eyes and hands; how does the rabbit feel and look? But the fastest is our minds, let's think and then see how it works

Hay has some protein and minerals too, not to forget.

Proteins are made into amino acids.. I have a fiend with cancer and evere diabetes.. she's working on curing herself with her diet and listening to her body, which means she eats no meat, fish, egg, grain, milk.. and I think several vegetebles are off limi too. Soy is not ok.. She focuses on fresh vegetables and raw ood to get amino acid instead of protein. This far it has helped her feel better and lower pretty much all her medecines. She has studied food and nutritions officially and keeps researching and learning.. She has really boosted my interest for nutritions And she's the one helping me most in my wheat-intolerance change.

Isn't it so that to get full protein you can mix grain and nuts? When I were a vegetarian I think that's what I learnt.. except the few things with fullworthy protein (=all aminos?) you could mix grains or rice with peas, seeds or nuts to get all the types? This is for humans, but wouldn't it cover most aminos?
________________

As for breaking foods down: I like to do that. It's fun And once I have a somewhat solid base to stand on, getting a nice picture of what's needed and why - I don't mind experimenting and changing. The differense wth animals in captivity and humans is that they have NO way of getting anythig we don't provide, and they can't say ''I so feel for a bit of parsley now..".. while we can. And we often get signals on what we need, if we listen to them. Plus.. a lot of people doesn't get everything they need..

And I like to think of what people wold naturally eat and base my own diet smewhat on that. From start we wouldn't eat as much grain, and not as raffined grains as we eat now, for exaple. It would be picked where we found it, not grown like now.. but of course I don't eat exactly like that, I just like to think and concider how it may affect us.

 

[Frecs]

Hay has some protein and minerals too, not to forget.

Depends on type, quality, age of the hay.

Proteins are made into amino acids.. I have a fiend with cancer and evere diabetes.. she's working on curing herself with her diet and listening to her body, which means she eats no meat, fish, egg, grain, milk.. and I think several vegetebles are off limi too. Soy is not ok.. She focuses on fresh vegetables and raw ood to get amino acid instead of protein. This far it has helped her feel better and lower pretty much all her medecines. She has studied food and nutritions officially and keeps researching and learning.. She has really boosted my interest for nutritions And she's the one helping me most in my wheat-intolerance change.

Is she 100% raw vegan? It is possible to greatly improve diabetes (including coming off insulin) with a raw vegan diet. It is also possible to become deficient in several nutrients such as zinc. It is a diet that must be monitored very carefully.

Isn't it so that to get full protein you can mix grain and nuts? When I were a vegetarian I think that's what I learnt.. except the few things with fullworthy protein (=all aminos?) you could mix grains or rice with peas, seeds or nuts to get all the types? This is for humans, but wouldn't it cover most aminos?

One can combine legumes, grains, and nuts in some combination to ensure all essential amino acids are obtained. It is actually not necessary that they be combined in the same meal, just in the same day.
________________

As for breaking foods down: I like to do that. It's fun And once I have a somewhat solid base to stand on, getting a nice picture of what's needed and why - I don't mind experimenting and changing. The differense wth animals in captivity and humans is that they have NO way of getting anythig we don't provide, and they can't say ''I so feel for a bit of parsley now..".. while we can. And we often get signals on what we need, if we listen to them. Plus.. a lot of people doesn't get everything they need..

Agreed.

And I like to think of what people wold naturally eat and base my own diet smewhat on that. From start we wouldn't eat as much grain, and not as raffined grains as we eat now, for exaple. It would be picked where we found it, not grown like now.. but of course I don't eat exactly like that, I just like to think and concider how it may affect us.

You are generalizing too much. In some parts of the world, grains are a major portion of the diet and has been for millennia. In other cultures, they have lived off of meat and fats exclusively. Each ethnic group developed eating foods specific to their local environments. They adapted to particular grains, meats, vegetables. The problem now is that people are now eating foods from around the world and thus, not necessarily foods they are genetically designed to digest and utilize.

 

[Mickey328]

Wow, great info. Personally I decided I wanted to get away from processed foods for us and for our critters....just on the personal belief that the less processing, the better. I might well re-think the grain and hay diet for the rabbits if we lived where things were hard to get. Fortunately Colorado is a very agricultural state and with our alkaline soil, good quality alfalfa is easy and inexpensive to obtain. My first mix is 4 parts oats, 4 parts barley, 1 part BOSS and 1 part beet pulp. I use the same mix for the chickens but add 1 part of cracked corn. Next time we need to hit the feed store, I'll probably add some wheat, just for variety. I plan to leave off with the beet pulp cuz none of the critters eat it, LOL. I still feed the dogs regular dog food...been thinking about changing that up but haven't done enough research to have a clue yet...plus don't have a source of meat yet. Hopefully once we get the rabbitry going well, I can make some changes there too.

Besides the grains, the rabbits have free access to grass hay and they all get a good couple of handfuls of alfalfa. They get little bits of fruit as treats every 2nd or 3rd day, and lots of veggies. They had been on pellets only when we got them, so we've been slowly moving them over.

I have to agree though...they can survive fine on a lot of things like just hay and water...but I think most of us want our buns to thrive rather than just survive...I know I want mine as healthy as possible both for their own sake and because I want them to produce good, healthy litters that will grow fairly quickly to become good healthy food for us.

 

[Zab]

Not finding much useful info yet. My hay has about 8.2% protein and 8MJ/kilo (whivh I have no idea how to make into % or anything useful..) it's a decent ratio for horses. It has a good amount and balance of Ca, P and Magnesium which - from a horse point of view - generally mean it probably have most micro-minerals necessary. I'd still give a mineral block though, I know it's low on selenium.
The alfalfa mix has 15% protein (12% digest friendly protein) and is mixed with oat-plants and ''dark grens" whatever that is. Ca 1,5% and P 0.3%

I can't find any hay or grass I recognize in feedipedia, but about barley:

Barley grain can be included up to 40-45 % in growing rabbits feeds if the diet is well balanced (Seroux, 1984). In commercial feeds, the level of inclusion is generally lower, about 10-25 % (de Blas et al., 2010). Barley supports growth rates comparable to those obtained with other cereal grains such as wheat or maize (Seroux, 1984; Lanza et al., 1986; Sinatra et al., 1987). Compared to these grains, the advantage of barley is its relatively high fibre content (ADF 5-7 % vs 3-4 % DM), as reaching an adequate fibre level in rabbit diets is always difficult. Only oats grains have a higher fibre level but they have a detrimental incidence on pellets quality while barley incidence is good and equivalent or better than that of maize for example (Acedo-Rico et al., 2010; Thomas et al., 2001).
Rabbit does

Barley grains is valuable for feeding breeding rabbit does, and the inclusion levels in control diets reported in numerous experiment range from 25 to 40 % (Lebas et al., 1988; Pascual et al., 1998) or even up to 64 % (Prasad et al., 1998).
---
Like maize and wheat, barley contains a high level of starch, about 60 % DM (55-63 %), which is lower than that of the other two cereal grains. Its protein content (about 11-12 % with values comprised between 9.5 and 13 % DM) is similar to that of wheat and higher than that of maize. Barley has a higher fibre content (crude fibre 4-6 %, ADF 5-7 %, NDF 18-24 %) than maize and wheat, which results in a poorer nutritive value in animal species sensitive to fibre content (Feedipedia, 2011).

What worries me with grains is the high level of starches. It's just unnatural..

Potatoprotein from a horsesite:

MJ 13.1
SRP 685 gr (protein that the horse can digest. Total protein is probably higher)
Lysin 60.4
Ca 0,4 gr
P 2.1 gr
Mg 0,3 gr
Na 0,1 gr

1 dl = 50g = 34,25g smbrp. It's.. 68% if I'm thinking right?
The site also say that the protein is nice to the horses digestive system compared to soy, and contain amino acids especially good for horses. Not much starches or sugars and requires very little to boost protein values. It's a powder so.. not sure how to make them eat it. From our point of view it's locally produced If rabbits and horses are so similiar, it might actually be a good way to boost protein for them too..? I just don't need 50 pounds of it..even if I start feeding it to my horses..and myself.. and I might not be able to find any..

Seems I'm out of luck in my quest of knowledge.. :reading1:


As for generalizing; yes I am in a way. But I'm thinking of the time before we even started to grow crops at all. I do not believe tht a millenia or two is enough to really change our digestive systems... we tolerate a big vaiety of foods, but I'm not so sure that means we're fully adapted to them. Like wheat and grain.. we have eaten that as long as anyone can remember (well,,longer) but still there are calculations that as many as 1 of 100 is intolerant to it without even realizing, in sweden. We can't know for sure, but I believe that can be true.. and I think it is becuse we eat too much of it.
Of course.. this is just my own personal thoughts of the matter.. and then I could ask - what foods did we have available and which ones did we know of that was edible?

Mickey: A general rule for raw feeding dogs are 70-80% meaty bones (includes heart as meat), 20% organ food (esp. liver, but no more than 10% liver) and 10% ''other'' like veggie-mixes. Mixed or frozen to be possble for the dog to digest.

 

[Frecs]

Not finding much useful info yet.

Keep working on it... :mrgreen:

What worries me with grains is the high level of starches. It's just unnatural..

Dried grains, yes. Sprouted grains convert that starch to protein and nutrients...that's why the interest in fodder and sprouting...

Seems I'm out of luck in my quest of knowledge.. :reading1:

Giving up so quickly?! Come now, you've only begun to research!

As for generalizing; yes I am in a way. But I'm thinking of the time before we even started to grow crops at all. I do not believe tht a millenia or two is enough to really change our digestive systems... we tolerate a big vaiety of foods, but I'm not so sure that means we're fully adapted to them. Like wheat and grain.. we have eaten that as long as anyone can remember (well,,longer) but still there are calculations that as many as 1 of 100 is intolerant to it without even realizing, in sweden. We can't know for sure, but I believe that can be true.. and I think it is becuse we eat too much of it.
Of course.. this is just my own personal thoughts of the matter.. and then I could ask - what foods did we have available and which ones did we know of that was edible?

This is where you get into nutritional anthropology, genetic differences between ethnic groups, etc. Some ethnic groups are quite adapted to wheat, while others are better adapted to barley or corn or quinoa. Also, each ethnic group developed methods of cooking that helped make the grains more digestible. Modern times have muddied the waters by mixing ethnic groups, and foods. You mention Sweden....wheat is not native to Sweden...rye, barley, and oats are grains that are native to the northern climates and to those cultures digestive systems. That's why I said, you are generalizing too much....it is much much more complex than it may seem on the surface.

 

[Zab]

Well, for me, I'm not going to sprout for the rabbits.. I keep failing at that. :blush:

Even if wheat is not native here, I don't think rye and barley are better. Because before people grew food, they gathered.. and I don't think any sort of grain (starch-rich grain) was a main food on it's own. Possibly a variety of different grains and grass-seeds that's not so rich in starches.. and still not to the amount we eat it today. I believe our digestive systems developed before we grew things.. sure, some minor changes and toleranses may be, but in generall I just think we eat way too much of food sources that never were a major part of our diets to start with.
Like milk. Even here, where we're known to be milk-drinkers, a lot of people are lactose or milk protein intolerant. of course that may partly be the processings fault for twisting the rna and stuff the wrong way..

 

[skysthelimit]

A large portion of the population of the world is lactose intolerant, because most mammals stop drinking milk after they are weaned. They can consume it, but is it is not a necessity.