Telly why... sell for $5?

[Frecs]

What a shame that would be!!! We are on complete opposite coasts or I'd gladly take them! I so hope you find someone who will carry on your careful breeding program!

 

[tailwagging]

Sometimes the best thing you can do to "save the gene pool" is send a rabbit to freezer camp.

maybe on common breeds but on your rare ones that could very easily go out, all the genes that you can work with helps. even if they have issues that you need to work on.

__________ Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:58 am __________

I am considering sending all my Creme D'Argents to freezer camp unless another breeder is interested. I only breed the best and don't want a pet quality breeder ruining all the work put into preserving the Cremes and improving them.

sorry but that doesn't make sense.

you would rather remove a gene pool,of a rare breed, that you consider good, to the freezer, then to have a "pet breeder" have it and possibly widen the pool??

 

[Dood]

It makes sense to me.

What's the point of maintaining a rare breed if they are pet quality and no longer match the SOP.

I would be very sad if other rarebreeds went the route of the Silver Fox where inconsitancy in coat and body type is a problem and any largish black (or blue or chocolate or sable or REW :shock: ) with silvering is called a "Silver Fox"

 

[Prisma]

It is exactly why some breeders choose to term cull rather than sell, they put YEARS of work into a line and breed only to have it ruined AND their name/reputation ruined in 1 generation. It isn't worth the headache nor the heartache it can cause. I know it is not always the case, but it happens too often.

 

[tailwagging]

sorry but that is BS.
everyone who has breed anything for any time knows good can produce bad and mediocre can produce good. it is about the genotype and phenotype of the family tree.
no one with any knowledge in breeding would judge someone's else bloodline on some other breeder's breeding choices if they do then they are foolish and don't know how to breed.

so there are pet Q bunny of a breed running around being pets. so what?
there will always be pet bunnies, non show bunnies but once good gene pool is freezer camped out it is gone.

the point of maintaining a rare breed is to maintain it.
as a good breeder you try and better it but the main reason is to maintain and promote it.

do you think that in the history of cal or NZ they were only kept by meat/show breeders? do you think that only they bred them? and yet those breeds are the best for being a good utility breed.
even though there are many many pet/non showing breeders of them.

the more promoted a breed is the better for that breed.

 

[Prisma]

I know that 2 good rabbits can produce nothing but pets, its a given. Its a numbers game. If some one buys a rabbit from a big name, crosses that rabbit, then sells those rabbits off as being good quality out of big name...it is going to look bad on the person as well as that name as it is from their stock/breeding line. Every line produces lessor examples of a breed, its a given, but there are those that are more consistent than others with what they produce quality wise. No one I know that shows higher up is going to buy a line or cross of a line that is consistently producing rabbits so far from the standard they are deemed poor examples of the breed nor are they going to put their rabbits in such places, doesn't make any sense to do that.

I am not talking about other purposes, I'm talking strictly for show thought. Maybe that's the issue. Every rabbit started as a mixed up mutt and a thought of a breed, I know that. Not saying that. I guess my point isn't getting across correctly.

 

[Frecs]

the more promoted a breed is the better for that breed.

That is BS and I can give you a good, non-rabbit, example: Cocker Spaniels.

Cocker Spaniels have been totally ruined as a breed in this country thanks to careless breeding by people who cared nothing about the quality of what they bred and only about the money they could make selling "pets". Now, there is a term for a common problem with Cocker Spaniels..."Cocker Rage".

 

[tailwagging]

anyone who understand breeding will not judge another breeder's bloodline on some other breeders choices. if they do they are foolish. you may like the breeders in the background but any true breeder would judge the bloodline choices from the breeder who bred the rabbit in question.

if and when the gene pool of a breed has been so heavily culled that it conceded to the point of completely going out, yes I bet they would. and I do personally know judges who actively go to "pet breeders" though classified and see what they may find, they like the challenge like getting a good sale at the store, or fining a rare plate at good will.

and yes many "high ups" will sell their stock to anyone. either for the money or to give the other breeder a chance of producing offspring.

__________ Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:48 am __________

the more promoted a breed is the better for that breed.

That is BS and I can give you a good, non-rabbit, example: Cocker Spaniels.

Cocker Spaniels have been totally ruined as a breed in this country thanks to careless breeding by people who cared nothing about the quality of what they bred and only about the money they could make selling "pets". Now, there is a term for a common problem with Cocker Spaniels..."Cocker Rage".

that is dogs not livestock. unless you eat crockpot cocker it is not the same.

with livestock there is an easy eating outlet. more of a chance of loosing gene pool faster.

non rabbit example basenji's extreme genetic bottlenecking.

 

[Dood]

the point of maintaining a rare breed is to maintain it.
as a good breeder you try and better it but the main reason is to maintain and promote it.

and they are trying to do this

unless another breeder is interested

but they are not willing to sell to just anyone who may not agree with Demammas breeding philosophy as they could easily ruin the Cremes in a few generations.

 

[tailwagging]

the point of maintaining a rare breed is to maintain it.
as a good breeder you try and better it but the main reason is to maintain and promote it.

and they are trying to do this

unless another breeder is interested

but they are not willing to sell to just anyone who may not agree with Demammas breeding philosophy as they could easily ruin the Cremes in a few generations.

but by freezer camping them, they are loosing the gene pool. that is NOT helping to promote nor maintain the amount of gene pool available. it is defiantly reducing the gene pool.
cremes will be ruined if there is too little gene pool for the next generation to work with.

 

[Demamma]

Careful breeding choices is what will preserve a rare breed. If I wanted I could keep all my Does breed them and continue till I completely ruin the breed. Instead I keep the best and eat the rest. The main reason I got into rabbits was to feed my family then I got sucked into Cremes. I learned a lot since I got back into rabbits. Heavy culling is what improves a line. With cremes culling is eating them. I started out with pet quality New Zealand white. As I have learned I have replaced most my rabbits. It is better for a breed to have a few good conscientious breeders than hundreds who breed crap. A lot of pet owners breed a few times. I don't want my cremes breed Willy nilly without regard to quality. I do sell crosses as pets but will be stopping as I am having a hard time being patient with some pet buyers. I am expectlng a call in the next few weeks from some pet buyers when their rabbits die. I explained care and food transitioning. Sent a week's worth of food only to find out they did not have money to buy food for a week. If I take the time to go look at some Creme D'Argents I don't want to waste my time buying crap. My buck is not the greatest and is going to be replaced by a son soon. Quality is more important than quantity in my opinion.<br /><br />__________ Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:30 am __________<br /><br />Freeziag crap rabbits is necessary

 

[Peach]

Keep the best , cull the rest. I'll eat them before I sell for $5. I know there are plenty that value a cheap animals and there are plenty that won't. I won't take that chance.

I work a job to support my hobby because it's just not a business for me. Some might get upset, but I am not one to support owning animals you can't afford to feed . That is very irresponsible. I think you can't really focus on your program when you are trying to sell pets just as fast to keep up with the coat of maintaining and showing a herd. I would lower my numbers until it was manageable and within budget. I might turn a $75 rabbit into a $50 rabbit for a youth that has purchased from me before and would like another and they have shown dedication and hard work.

$5 just sounds like an oopsy or reptile food litter ( Usually posted underneath is not for consumption!)

Price doesn't always reflect quality, but it's just not likely to get a quality rabbit for $5.

Success on the tables will help get buyers and interest in your stock. I've never felt the need to lower my prices even though Mini Lops are "out of style". In the south. I doing everything I can to stay competitive and earn a good name.

Culls can just as easily destroy a breed.

 

[skysthelimit]

Keep the best , cull the rest. I'll eat them before I sell for $5. I know there are plenty that value a cheap animals and there are plenty that won't. I won't take that chance.



Price doesn't always reflect quality, but it's just not likely to get a quality rabbit for $5.


Culls can just as easily destroy a breed.

Yep. I know price doesn't always reflect quality, but I can't see anyone serious about whatever they are breeding putting in all the hard work, or even wanting to recoup what they paid selling for $5. I worked too hard to get my animals to the quality I have now. I would rather cull than put out something that's not up to par and sell it cheap to get rid of it. I call that quality control. It will eventually end up back in the gene pool, it's happened to me and others. If it's for sale, it's worth selling, it's a good specimen fit for breeding, and worth as much.

Someone used a car for example. Well I had a van that wasn't worth me fixing, I was going to scrap it, but someone begged to get it off of me. I tried to explain it was not worth it, but eventually I gave in. Wrong thing, that person was constantly fixing on it, much more than what it was worth, and after a year, the engine blew, and it had to be scrapped. Should have listened to me, and let me scrap it, the person did not even get her money's worth, turned to a money pit instead.

Sometimes instead of putting those genetics out there, a cull should be culled terminally. For the sake of the breed, putting stuff out there that's not a good representation, selling it cheap, means the unsuspecting person might inherit problems that take years to work out, like the SF. So instead of a few small gene pool of good animals, there is a larger gene pool of animals with bad genes. How does that preserve a breed?

The CL influx of Hollands and Mini Rex have done nothing but lower the quality of the animals.

 

[tailwagging]

i guess because it is cheap to get a really good rabbit in common breeds(under $300.00) most just go that rout. instead of the really hard work of rare breeds.

this thread has shown that

1. if you don't sell your rabbit for what they are worth, then they are crap rabbits. that you mustn't care nor value them if sell them at a lower price.

2. that there is something wrong with you if you don't freezer camp those genes if you can't get your money

3. and who cares if a rare breed goes out as long as we feel high and mighty about "keep the best and cull the rest"
better cull these cl mutt finds

4 oh and a "pet breeders" are too low to know how to breed.
guess what, most rabbits breeders were pet breeders before becoming show breeders.

 

[phillinley]

My thought is this: If your rabbits are worth $50, sell them for $50. If they are worth $5, sell them for $5.

And my thought is this: If my rabbit is worth $50, I'll sell it for however much I feel like selling it for, and you can do the same.

Yep. I know price doesn't always reflect quality, but I can't see anyone serious about whatever they are breeding putting in all the hard work, or even wanting to recoup what they paid selling for $5.

Well then you be blind and I'll show up as an invisible spirit if I ever see you at a show. Because I could give a rat's behind what's in my bank account at the end of the month after all of the bills are paid for. The work I put in, the time I put into breeding and making sure I get good stock, I see that as an opportunity to help others not to pad my stats. I work hard to help other people, not just to help myself. My wife spends her own money for flight tickets and accommodations to fly to Haiti once a year and help to train women how to deliver babies in thrid world conditions for free. Under your argument that would be just as ridiculous, why work so hard as a midwife to get paid and then blow that money trying to help someone out for nothing who might not appreciate it.

I put in probably 4 to 5 thousand dollars into these rabbits since starting and drove all over the midwest to buy the best stock I can. So selling the show quality buns for $50 isn't going to dent that cost, and I'm not even worrying about doing so. I'm not suggesting how you should sell your rabbits at all, everyone's economic situation is different. But the concept shouldn't be hard to grasp that if someone was financially secure (IE, the bills are paid each month with more left over) and liked helping people, it would not be a stretch to see that they wouldn't care much about being properly compensated for helping others out.

 

[Demamma]

i guess because it is cheap to get a really good rabbit in common breeds(under $300.00) most just go that rout. instead of the really hard work of rare breeds.

this thread has shown that

1. if you don't sell your rabbit for what they are worth, then they are crap rabbits. that you mustn't care nor value them if sell them at a lower price.

2. that there is something wrong with you if you don't freezer camp those genes if you can't get your money

3. and who cares if a rare breed goes out as long as we feel high and mighty about "keep the best and cull the rest"
better cull these cl mutt finds

4 oh and a "pet breeders" are too low to know how to breed.
guess what, most rabbits breeders were pet breeders before becoming show breeders.

1. I'm not saying your animals are crap if sold cheap that is up to you to decide your price. I set my price you set yours.

2. Not everyone is wanting to freezer camp but that is what some of us choose for inferior animals.

3. What good is a breed if it's worthless. With good conscientious breeders who are dedicated to the breed they won't disappear. Pet breeders are not what will save the rare breeds dedicated breeders will. You are get to g very judgmental here. As a Creme D'Argent breeder I do care about it saving the breed. That is why I choose to breed the best and eat the rest. If I had the only cremes available and needed to save the breed I would still take the best available and use for breeding saving the best genetics. If I breed scrawny runty rabbits in a matter of time I would not have a rabbit resembling the Creme of today I would have a scrawny runty rabbit that silvers.

4. I started out breeding for meat and selling sometimes for pet. The average (not all) pet owner is pretty clueless about rabbit breeding. A healthy quality rabbit is more likely to survive than a runt. I chose to quit selling to any pet rabbit owner as I do not have temperament anymore for the clueless who don't learn. I'm not say I g if someone came to me with the desire to have a quality animal I would turn them away but I will be more picky. I have mix breeds that make better pets. I would rather my Cremes go to knowlegable or learning homes.

 

[skysthelimit]

Or possibly, some of us are tired of people selling cheap, crappy rabbits and passing them off as good ones, then having the buyers complain about the problems in the breeds, when what they bought was not a good representation to begin with.

Good pet breeders aren't selling for $5. I don't see $5 CL rabbits where I live at. I see pet breeders selling for $20-40, asking for responsible homes, and putting out some nice rabbits. I see people asking rehoming fees of $20-30.

I allow for everyone the have their own standards and ethics, and I refuse to lower mine just because someone thinks it's an elitist view. Different strokes for different folks. Some people breed mixed breeds, I don't. Some people breed pure breeds without papers, I won't. Some people will sell low just to move stock, I won't. They may not like me for it now, but if they get tired of messing around with crappy stock, they can come and see me

 

[tailwagging]

I too love cremes. and I too want the best bloodlines i can get ( my 2nd foundation trio were from and bred by this year/last year's convention bob winner)
I have a very small heard of cremes 6 does 3 bucks. in order for me to get legs I must show ready all 6 does or time litters and have more bucks available to go to the show ( I only get to go to my club's shows so 4 shows a year)

so if a litter is too young to show, a doe or buck GCH out or get too old to be competitive I must cull by seed starting another breeder to work with, pet out, sell to a backyard food breeding, feed my dogs or eat.
which is better for the breed?

 

[skysthelimit]

But the concept shouldn't be hard to grasp that if someone was financially secure (IE, the bills are paid each month with more left over) and liked helping people, it would not be a stretch to see that they wouldn't care much about being properly compensated for helping others out. [/b]

Since when are we talking about helping people?

I'm talking about just selling off stock on CL to whomever for cheap.

I've given stock away, to the right people for the right reasons. But I will not list my stock on CL for cheap for the general public. If that's your heart, then that's noble for you. That's not what we are talking about here.

And since you are making it personal, what your wife does with her time, helps people in serious situations. Every month my family takes their personal funds, and distributes NEW clothing and food to the homeless around town, living in the streets, driving around for some time, sometimes walking, no matter what the weather, using whatever resources we have to aid those in need.

If someone needed a rabbit for food, giving it away would be the thing to do. That is NOT the comparison here. You can't even come close to guilt tripping me for wanting real money for my animals. IF that was the case, we should not sell anything, let's run around and find people who need it more than we do and give it all away. In that case, I need a car, anyone got one for free?

 

[tailwagging]

but if it were free it must be a crappy car and have no value. right?