New Zealand Red cross Harlequin rabbits

[ladysown]

best, very impressive young doe - pending sale

buck

buck - pending sale

buck

buck

doe - pending sale

doe

These kits are off my sons' doe. Quite impressed with this does' first time litter.

 

[Jack]

the red is lost as the ej (Japanese or Harlequin) extension gene is dominate over the wideband ee

you have pretty rabbits, do you know where the REW comes from?

I'm partial to reds, over all they look good, did the red deepen the Harlequin's red?

 

[ladysown]

Hi Jack

thank you. The white came from the NZR have a small snip on her nose and the white from the Magpie. He and his magpie brother via for being the best boys in the litter.

She did not deepen the red colour in the kits, except on the bottom black which in regular light is much darker than it appears here.

 

[moonkitten]

Er... I know that you both know this already, but to get that REW kit, you needed a 'c' from both parents.

Just wanted to clear that up for anyone new to colour genetics

 

[Jack]

actually, that's a laugh, I hear people saying 'breed into a white'
But, that's the last thing I would do, because the color is masked,
Hence my question, of where the recessive is popping out of.

 

[moonkitten]

actually, that's a laugh, I hear people saying 'breed into a white'
But, that's the last thing I would do, because the color is masked,
Hence my question, of where the recessive is popping out of.

I agree completely! I have no idea why so many breeders recommend crossing to NZW to improve body type. Sure they have great type, but who knows what other colour genes that rabbit is carrying!!

The good thing about this litter is that Ladysown now has an excellent idea of the genes here. The magpie buck has to be carrying 'c' to produce that rew kit, plus a magpie is known to be 'cchd' (chin gene removes the yellow/orange from the hair shaft). The doe is red, so she's got both 'C' full colour plus the 'c' that produced the rew kit.

The magpie kits received 'cchd' from dad and can't have gotten 'C' from mom (or they would be japanese) therefore they are 'cchd' and 'c'. The rew is obviously 'cc' and the japanese kits are either 'Ccchd' or 'Cc'.

 

[Jack]

Magpie is ej, cause the mom is ee to be red, so how is the mom lacking a dominate C, I thought that to be red they had to be A_B_C_D_ee
so for the magpie is it non agouti, or diluted agouti?

 

[eco2pia]

actually, that's a laugh, I hear people saying 'breed into a white'
But, that's the last thing I would do, because the color is masked,
Hence my question, of where the recessive is popping out of.

I agree completely! I have no idea why so many breeders recommend crossing to NZW to improve body type. Sure they have great type, but who knows what other colour genes that rabbit is carrying!!

Actually, I am a NZ newbie, so I shouldn't say too much here, but I thought the reason people reccommend to breed into white is that that is where the commercial lines are, so you get some practical traits like large litter size, fertility, and physical type (in some cases). It also depends on your goals of course. Color is easier to "set" supposedly than type, probably for the pure reason that it is more easily visible/quantifiable. Genetically of course, genes are either there or not, and you have a 50/50 shot for getting the one you want at any given locus, but if you are selecting for a gene that isn't immeadiately visible in the nest box, and you are inexperienced to boot, it IS harder to select for type, weight gain, and fertility, practically speaking.

OK, please forgive me for going fftopic:, and I'm new to purebreds so correct me if I am wrong!

 

[moonkitten]

Magpie is ej, cause the mom is ee to be red, so how is the mom lacking a dominate C, I thought that to be red they had to be A_B_C_D_ee
so for the magpie is it non agouti, or diluted agouti?

The mom is not lacking 'C', the mom is 'Cc' - full colour and carrying for rew.

Magpie is supposed to be self (aa), but the presence of the chin gene removes the yellow bands from the hair shaft, plus the 'ejej' changes the pattern of rings in the fur to a pattern of rings around the body. So it's pretty impossible to tell what's in the 'A' locus without test breeding to a known 'aa' rabbit.

I definitely get quite a few otters out of magpie crosses, so they are also possibly carrying At.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "diluted agouti". The dilute gene is the 'D' locus and the agouti gene is the 'A' locus.

Note: apologies to Ladysown for hijacking her sale page. At least we are keeping it at the top of the list

 

[ladysown]

no issues. I"m learning lots. I was quite surprised in how this litter turned out.

similar breedings with her mother always resulted in black jap kits - some with the odd white foot. No exceptions. So having the magpie and the REW in there was a HUH?

 

[Jack]

the pattern on the magpie looks in that photo to be more blue than black, but if a modified striped yellow of a chin + ejej you could/can get a opal???

 

[ladysown]

it is a blue...a very dark blue. He's a very nice kit.

I think of times of getting out of harles and if I did that, I'll probably keep this kit and sell his dad. I might just go for solid meat mutts that grow fast and consistently. I'm finding the harles vary too much in their rate of grow out and it's frustrating at times.

 

[moonkitten]

similar breedings with her mother always resulted in black jap kits - some with the odd white foot. No exceptions. So having the magpie and the REW in there was a HUH?

Well it's possible the doe's dam was not carrying 'c', but was 'CC'. In which case all her offspring would have at least one 'C' full colour = japanese. The dam of this litter might have gotten 'c' from her father, so now her offspring can display the 'cchd' of their sire (the magpie buck).

 

[ladysown]

the litter that this doe came from was a breeding a poor quality NZR (with a white snip down the nose) to a red buck I got from moonkitten. The whole litter was red except this doe who, like mom, has a snip on her nose. That buck I think had white in his background (but can't recall at this exact second).

 

[PulpFaction]

Awesome! I like Harlie patterns. Would you be able to show these kits as Harlequins, or will they mature too big?

Either way, that's an awesome litter!

 

[moonkitten]

I thought the reason people reccommend to breed into white is that that is where the commercial lines are, so you get some practical traits like large litter size, fertility, and physical type (in some cases).

You're right, it does depend on what your goals are. If you're just breeding for meat, then it doesn't matter what breed or colour you are crossing, you just want the best production traits that you can get. If you're goal is to produce purebred rabbits for show or sale, then crossing a white NZ into a coloured breed may set you back farther than you intended simply because you don't know what you're adding in.

If your goal is to keep a breed pure, but you want a short cut to increase litter size or body type, there might be a better choice than always immediately going to NZW. For litter size, you might even be able to find a better producing bloodline within your own breed if you shop around. For body type, you might be able to find a breed that is just that one step better, but that also shares colour genetics that you can use. I just don't think that every NZW is the be-all-end-all of the rabbit production world. But then I'm biased -- I love my black New Zealands!

 

[ladysown]

i wouldn't show them as harles, to me they are mutts and therefore not worthy of being shown as harles. Will they mature to a nice size, that would be compatible with the harle size? probably all except the biggest doe and the white buck. They are biggest of the litter. But I could easily see the smaller ones staying at harle size. the dam isn't a huge rabbit by any means. bigger than her mom, but not as big as her dad was.

 

[eco2pia]

You're right, it does depend on what your goals are.... If you're goal is to produce purebred rabbits for show or sale, then crossing a white NZ into a coloured breed may set you back farther than you intended simply because you don't know what you're adding in.

If your goal is to keep a breed pure, but you want a short cut to increase litter size or body type, there might be a better choice than always immediately going to NZW.... But then I'm biased -- I love my black New Zealands!

Snipped for brevity...I am having an A-HA :idea: moment--You mean other breeds bring in NZW to help type? I was thinking of bringing NZW into other NZ color lines, like my (hypothetical, not yet bred) NZ reds and brokens... in that case the commercial white makes a lot of sense, since it IS the same breed, just a different line. Though I would rather work in the reds alone, my buck has commercial lines on one side, and I am pretty happy about it. AND I love New Zealand Reds, so I understand your bias!

 

[Jack]

Yeah, form some reason breeders, thriantas lines (and some judges, like Eric will and do doc for 'incorrect hair type' BTW he hates it, and says it's pointless)
similar size, they would breed a 'type' buck to a NZW trying to up the meat/bone and get the 'compact' frame, the breed the half back into the lines to 'improve' it.

 

[moonkitten]

I was thinking of bringing NZW into other NZ color lines, like my (hypothetical, not yet bred) NZ reds and brokens... in that case the commercial white makes a lot of sense, since it IS the same breed, just a different line

I meant it both ways actually. I don't think crossing any NZW into other meat breeds or other NZ varieties is always the best alternative. I don't think it's always a bad choice either, only that other meat breeds and varieties also have very strong points and are often overlooked in the popular assumption that every NZW is the best thing since sliced bread

I have worked closely with a number of NZ show breeders in the area and not one of them would ever consider crossing a "commercial" NZ into their lines. These show breeders are not concerned with litter size, fertility, early breeding, etc. They want WINNING animals. I know of a couple who breed their does only 2-3 times a year to produce rabbits the correct ages for the spring/fall shows; who cull litters to 5 kits to promote faster growth (because the biggest junior often wins on the table) and who don't breed their does until after their show career at 1 year or more of age.

Plus, the commercial NZ nearby are simply big REW meat rabbits. They cross any meat breeds they buy into their whites so the rabbits are not purebred. They tend to be long with large loins and do not resemble the show NZ at all.

If your main goal is to produce efficient meat, then the commercial whites (often called NZW just for simplicity) could be a great help to your lines. But if you are breeding show quality NZ, then you could do great damage by crossing a REW mutt without correct type in. It really depends on your goals.

My point was just that I think there are good quality meat rabbits out there that get overlooked because they aren't "New Zealand White". Silver Fox, Rex, the Argente breeds, etc. not to mention the Black New Zealands. I don't think there is anything wrong with NZW, I just wish more people gave other breeds/varieties a chance

Getting off my soapbox now -- :soap: