New Breed(s) and Varieties?

[skysthelimit]

True, but after 7 years of the same Rex herd being inbred with no new blood, there aren't Steels, Wool, blue eyes where there should be none, white blazes on the nose, kits popping out that don't have obvious Rex fur. Mother to son, brother to sister, the litters are consistently Rex. The JW the same thing, lined a whole litter up of uniform kits, took them to a show to figure out which ones to keep, and they all placed.
The SF I have, same age, half the litter doesn't have silvering yet, half has white noses, two have more undercoat than guard hairs. Not half as much line breeding in SF as Rex, and it's already getting funky.

Each breed has their own breed problems, some have them more than others. Some take longer to reach the breed/variety status because of these inconsistencies. Varieties/breeds don't pass because they don't breed true, something as basic as the silvering that is the hallmark of the breed should breed true. Wasn't that one of the problems with Lionheads, getting the mane to breed true?

 

[Frecs]

Was there always a challenge in getting SFs to "breed true"? or is this something new that has resulted from the period (1970-90??) when there were so few of them that breeders had no choice but to cross in other genetics?

 

[Dood]

I forgot a out the wool gene :shock: in Silver Fox.

And I said CONFORMATION mirror images, I know silvering is imprecise. But weak shoulders seems to crop up quite a bit in the SF I ve seen on this forum and the web, and size for a senior doe can range from 12lb to 7lb :x

I mean, to get "perfection" isn't easy or everyone would do it, right?

:lol: there is "perfection" and there is "not even close" AKA mutts that sorta look like a breed but aren't.

Unfortunately too many people added too many things. If they'd used a bit of common sense and decided to only use NZB or Black Satins or Black Angora who were test bred as aa BB CC DD EE then NONE of theses problems would be happening! But people when crazy, probably because the demand was so high, and added REW, American Sables, Blue Beveren etc... and made a big mess.

Just look at popular dog breeds - Goldens, Labs, Boxers etc... have a HUGE range in conformation and the majority wouldn't stand a chance in a show ring. There is also differences in interpreting the breed standard and American champions might not do well in Europe and vice versa.

 

[Frecs]

I forgot a out the wool gene :shock: in Silver Fox.

And I said CONFORMATION mirror images, I know silvering is imprecise. But weak shoulders seems to crop up quite a bit in the SF I ve seen on this forum and the web, and size for a senior doe can range from 12lb to 7lb :x

I mean, to get "perfection" isn't easy or everyone would do it, right?

:lol: there is "perfection" and there is "not even close" AKA mutts that sorta look like a breed but aren't.

Unfortunately too many people added too many things. If they'd used a bit of common sense and decided to only use NZB or Black Satins or Black Angora who were test bred as aa BB CC DD EE then NONE of theses problems would be happening! But people when crazy, probably because the demand was so high, and added REW, American Sables, Blue Beveren etc... and made a big mess.

Just look at popular dog breeds - Goldens, Labs, Boxers etc... have a HUGE range in conformation and the majority wouldn't stand a chance in a show ring. There is also differences in interpreting the breed standard and American champions might not do well in Europe and vice versa.

LOL...I said I was showing my ignorance... :lol:

I am kinda glad this whole brewhaha came into my awareness now...it has helped me make some important decisions as a BYRB (Backyard Rabbit Breeder). I started out with this grand notion of "helping to save the SF breed". My total lack of genetic and breeding knowledge only slightly dampened my determination. :x But, rather than go tilting at windmills and/or stressing myself out and focusing on the wrong thing...I'm more and more satisfied with the idea of simply creating "my" ideal BYRBRH (Backyard Rabbit Breeder Rabbit Herd). So much less stress than trying to meet someone else's standards.

I admire those who CAN and do breed to the SOP and Kudos to those who are playing an active roll in saving the Silver Fox.

 

[skysthelimit]

Was there always a challenge in getting SFs to "breed true"? or is this something new that has resulted from the period (1970-90??) when there were so few of them that breeders had no choice but to cross in other genetics?

I don't know. It was actually one of the long time breeders that made this point about the silvering on FB. I will have to ask, that person has heritage stock.<br /><br />__________ Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:41 am __________<br /><br />Anyone who creates a breed or variety has a big challenge. Even with an established breed, just adding new colors causes issues. No harsh words towards any of them, just pointing out how incredibly hard it is, and not for the faint of heart. The good thing is others have COD for chocolate, so all he hard work will continue soon.
R. Turley is also planning to reapply for a COD for Orange JW. I might raise some in support for her, it's a very pretty color.

 

[Frecs]

Question: the person who gets the COD, only they can present rabbits at convention to try to get approval? So, Meara is the only one who can show blues to get approval of blues?

 

[phillinley]

And, I'm not sure what you mean by "SF are inconsistent as a breed period". I don't think that is true at all.

I cannot imagine the ones throwing REW, steel and sable can have the proper coat or are producing offspring that are conformationally mirror images of each other.

Why would you find sables to be unimaginable to have the proper coat? They used to be an accepted Silver Fox variety in the 60s. From newly crossed herds people have gotten a sable silver fox to pop up from time to time. It could easily be from either a sable thrown in at some point in the last thirty years or a genetic throwback to the old variety. So it's not a stretch for it to have good fur conformation.

 

[Dood]

Holy crud people!

It's simple genetics !

25 % of the population should be carrying around these genes if they are from the 60's ! The breed almost went extinct, it's called a "bottle neck" - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_bottleneck and recessive CANNOT hide in one! These genes are not old genes just recently re-discovered! They are new genes people added to improve something a breeder felt was lacking or because their SF were getting too inbred and they figured what the heck, let's cross on ______ to prevent them from going extinct.

Well it worked !

"Silver Fox" are now pretty common in the meat breeding community, most of whom could give a rats arse if they have the proper coat texture, density, length as long as they are productive.

These hidden recessive are not that hidden - Silver Fox are rare, and unlike dog breeders, MOST people have a some what closed, or completely closed, rabbitrys for fear of disease so extreme inbreeding/linebreeding is VERY COMMON and has been for decades! so why are these genes just showing up now?

Seriously! How often do you breed two show stock black NZ and get chocolate that cropped up/existed 15 generations a ago?

Of course they "may" have the right fur but "inconsistency" has been evident for years at Nationals and locally.

 

[Frecs]

Well, then I guess the 'serious' breeders need to figure out what to do about it. I will join the rest of the SF population who only cares about productivity, and a lovely pelt with that distinctive fur, and their wonderful docile personality. Yep...that works for me!

 

[phillinley]

I will join the rest of the SF population who only cares about productivity, and a lovely pelt with that distinctive fur, and their wonderful docile personality. Yep...that works for me!

It will definitely save you from a lot of headache.

 

[Frecs]

I will join the rest of the SF population who only cares about productivity, and a lovely pelt with that distinctive fur, and their wonderful docile personality. Yep...that works for me!

It will definitely save you from a lot of headache.

Indeed! And since I am also busy trying to develop a homestead, study for the ministry, be a youth leader, and care for my mother who is showing signs of early on-set dementia...well, I just need to cut some stress somewhere!

Oh, and work full-time...can't forget that!

 

[skysthelimit]

I will join the rest of the SF population who only cares about productivity, and a lovely pelt with that distinctive fur, and their wonderful docile personality. Yep...that works for me!

It will definitely save you from a lot of headache.

I agree. But if something nice pops up, I'll put it on the table. SF are supposed to be my meat breed, not actually my show herd. I started putting them on the table because there were so few of them at shows, just to help people. My main concern is fast growth and litter size.

 

[HoppinHalfPints]

Dang it! Champagne ND didn't pass! I was hoping they would. Boo.