meat mutts colors **update kindle and trouble!

[ohiogoatgirl]

So my current herd is:
Doe 3/4 nz 1/4 fg, gold tipd steel (("gts"))
Doe nz, red
Doe nz, rew
Buck SF, black
Buck Florida white, rew


The FW buck has a litter with the gts doe. Kits are: 3 gts, 3 agouti, 3 opal, 1 blue. The blue i am not sure on because the opals have the brownish behind the ears and white bellies and white inner ears. The blues inner ears are just slightly lighter blue and belly is lighter but not white, but there is a bit of brownish behind the ears. So i am unsure if its a not good blue or a not good opal lol.

So now i know FW buck carries rew, gts, agouti, opal, and possibly blue. And the gts mixed doe carries gts, agouti, opal, and possibly blue.

 

[Zass]

your blue is probably a gold tipped blue steel.
(genetically an opal effected by steel, just like a GTS is an agouti effected by steel)
Since it only takes one copy of the steel gene to produce them, it is possible that only one parent is a carrier. Obviously, the GTS doe is one, but your FW buck might not be a carrier at all. You could test by breeding him to an agouti or opal.

and on another note, you should humor me and breed that SF buck to an opal or agouti...and tell me what you get

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

Darn phone typin! /: anyways.....

The FW buck also bred the nz red and nz white. From the white doe since it is rew x rew i am expexting all rew kits, but am i right in thinkin that if both were lets say blacks under the rew then i would get some rew kits and some black kits possibly?

The nz red isnt very dark red. Her belly and paws are creamy to white colored. Is this technically fawn? So she doesnt have alot of rufus genetically for deeper red?
Since i know the buck carries opal and maybe blue n i will get agoutis<br /><br />__________ Tue Dec 24, 2013 3:53 pm __________<br /><br />** thinkin i will get agouti shades since red is agouti base?

Sorry i dont have computer acces so phone is best i can do for now.

 

[Zass]

You need wideband genes to make a really good red, with a red belly and paws. It suggests your NZR is already a mix breed to me. Still called a red though I think

Opal is just agouti effected by the dilution(blue) gene, and both parents are obviously carrying it, because you do need two copies of that gene to express it visually.

Agouti is dominant to self(solid) color, and your doe GTS is an agouti. So once again, there is no conclusive evidence your buck is an agouti. He might be black(or who knows what?). Test breeding is all you can do with REWS

REW to REW should produce 100% rews.

 

[grumpy]

I know nothing about color genetics.
But, why use a Florida White buck and reduce the overall size?

 

[Dood]

but am i right in thinkin that if both were lets say blacks under the rew then i would get some rew kits and some black kits possibly?

No, the ONLY possibility is REW since it is the most recessive colour on the C-locus and hides all others.

The nz red isnt very dark red. Her belly and paws are creamy to white colored. Is this technically fawn?

Yes.

So she doesnt have alot of rufus genetically for deeper red?

Possibly. She is definitely missing two recessive wideband genes that make reds look like self ( red all over) instead of agouti (lighter belly, eye and ear rims etc..) and if her saddle / back is a rich dark red then she has the Rufus factors but just missing the widebands.

Since i know the buck carries opal and maybe blue n i will get agoutis

this tells you the buck carries dilute which turns agouti into opal and selfs blue. He does likely carry agouti but not for certain as I think your self "blue" is likely a steel opal and the FW buck doesn't carry self.

 

[Zass]

Hey dood, I get confused about fawns, aren't they a dilute non-extension color in some breeds?

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

your blue is probably a gold tipped blue steel.
(genetically an opal effected by steel, just like a GTS is an agouti effected by steel)
Since it only takes one copy of the steel gene to produce them, it is possible that only one parent is a carrier. Obviously, the GTS doe is one, but your FW buck might not be a carrier at all. You could test by breeding him to an agouti or opal.

and on another note, you should humor me and breed that SF buck to an opal or agouti...and tell me what you get

The gts doe is going to be bred back to the SF buck and i am excitd to see what they have together. He is full pedigree all black sf except one white G.G. grandsire.

Though i am really thinkin on keepin the best doe from this gts x FW litter to breed back to her sire and the SF to see what that gets too.

 

[akane]

Fawn is one of those terms that depends on the breed. For some fawn is a simple nonextension black agouti. What is called red in other breeds. Some it's a dilute red.

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

I know nothing about color genetics.
But, why use a Florida White buck and reduce the overall size?

I am goin on three years with rabbits and just now gettin to have decentmeaty rabbits. I work with what i can get. If i can get nice meaty healthy 4# at 8wk mutts its sure as heck stomps out the 2# at 14wk calis i had!

 

[Dood]

Hey dood, I get confused about fawns, aren't they a dilute non-extension color in some breeds?

Yes.
Some breeds call the colour "orange" :shrug: but I use fawn because chestnut non extension Flemish that ARE NOT DILUTE are called 'fawn' and are the most common source of the colour.

 

[Zass]

your blue is probably a gold tipped blue steel.
(genetically an opal effected by steel, just like a GTS is an agouti effected by steel)
Since it only takes one copy of the steel gene to produce them, it is possible that only one parent is a carrier. Obviously, the GTS doe is one, but your FW buck might not be a carrier at all. You could test by breeding him to an agouti or opal.

and on another note, you should humor me and breed that SF buck to an opal or agouti...and tell me what you get

The gts doe is going to be bred back to the SF buck and i am excitd to see what they have together. He is full pedigree all black sf except one white G.G. grandsire.

Though i am really thinkin on keepin the best doe from this gts x FW litter to breed back to her sire and the SF to see what that gets too.

The GTS doe won't tell me anything about steel and SF, although I'd be interested in knowing if there was even one agouti(not steel) kit in that litter. Since it's obvious at least that she only has one copy of the steel gene.
(compiling research you see) If you bred him to a clean agouti or opal though, and get 100% agouti kits, well...I'd be willing make a drive to your place to trade or buy rabbits!

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

Lol now my brain is possibly goin to genetics overload...

You want agoutis from an SF?
I thought agouti was like the bane of existance for SF breeding?

 

[Dood]

Lol now my brain is possibly goin to genetics overload...

You want agoutis from an SF?
I thought agouti was like the bane of existance for SF breeding?

:rotfl:

opcorn:

 

[grumpy]

I know nothing about color genetics.
But, why use a Florida White buck and reduce the overall size?

I am goin on three years with rabbits and just now gettin to have decentmeaty rabbits. I work with what i can get. If i can get nice meaty healthy 4# at 8wk mutts its sure as heck stomps out the 2# at 14wk calis i had!

:x Go for it!!. I know what it's like buying JUNK!
There's a ton of it out there.

I've considered buying a different colored buck just to
get away from the "all-white" stock I've got. I used to
have a dynamite line of multi-colored meat rabbits.
A fella stopped by and wanted a start of rabbits.
He made me an offer I couldn't refuse.
Two days later....E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G...was gone.

Sure wish I had some of them pretty girls back.

grumpy.

 

[Zass]

No, I want SF genetics that have no steel. I'm playing around with getting that standup coat in other colors as well, so yeah, test bred steel-free SF are interesting as heritage SF, and agouti colored thus steel free 1/2 fox kits are interesting to me as mutts with valuable pelt genetics.

I have no intention of breeding anything INTO SF lines. I just want some steel-free stock to be my own SF rabbits, and some mutts to have fun with.

Getting the steel out of the fox and maintaining the standup coat(in my mutts) is going to be tough, and I wonder if that is exactly why we don't see other types with stand up coats? Just how contaminated are SF lines?
At this point I'm curious as to what # are even black rabbits.
I've yet to test breed a single one that could prove to me it was actually black, and have successfully proven at least one was an agouti.

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

No dood, I want SF genetics that have no steel.

Hm... so if i breed the SF buck to the mutt opal or agouti and get all agouti than the SF **does not** carry steel? .... wouldnt the kits have possibly steel genes hidden in them though from my gts doe? I thought steel is one of those genes that can hide for many many generations and pop up seemingly out of nowhere?<br /><br />__________ Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:51 pm __________<br /><br />

No, I want SF genetics that have no steel. I'm playing around with getting that standup coat in other colors as well, so yeah, test bred steel-free SF are interesting as heritage SF, and agouti colored thus steel free 1/2 fox kits are interesting to me as mutts with valuable pelt genetics.

I have no intention of breeding anything INTO SF lines. I just want some steel-free stock to be my own SF rabbits, and some mutts to have fun with.

Getting the steel out of the fox and maintaining the standup coat(in my mutts) is going to be tough, and I wonder if that is exactly why we don't see other types with stand up coats? Just how contaminated are SF lines?
At this point I'm curious as to what # are even black rabbits.
I've yet to test breed a single one that could prove to me it was actually black, and have successfully proven at least one was an agouti.

Oooooohh

 

[Zass]

Steel cannot hide on certain coat colors. It's not a recessive gene. Only one copy of the steel gene will turn an agouti coat into a visual gold tipped steel.
For example, because your doe was able to throw agouti kits it means she only has one steel gene.
NO visual agouti rabbit can have or hide a single steel gene though, it always shows up.

It can hide in SELF colors for generations . And steel can look like self, and be a pain in the tail to even identify such a rabbit.
SO far one of my pedigreed SF rabbits was an agouti steel pretending to be black. And 3 other unrelated rabbits had steel genes and thus COULD have been. It's hard to turn them up without the right test rabbits, and I don't have an agouti doe who isn't carrying self right now to use.
I can only breed to a tested pure self and hope to see one with ticking. Not the best way to do it.

Err, so LOL, I want black SF who produce agouti mutts when crossed with an agouti mutt! (because agouti is dominant to self, that's how it should go)

If you breed your black SF rabbit to an agouti and get agouti's it means he's actually black, just like he is supposed to be. If you bred him to a clean visual agouti and got steels, well, it means your rabbit could be black, or he could be an agouti steel.

Reworded perhaps to simplify:

iF he throws visual agoutis he's NOT an agouti, LOL, and he doesn't throw agoutis, then he might be an agouti. and agouti is not the right color for a SF :lol:

I guess I could see why people think this steel stuff is confusing. It's not an easy thing to explain :wink:

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

Ok the litter turned out four gts, 2 opal, 2 blue-gts, 1 agouti (kindda suspicious it may have steel though. Wish i could post a pic of it).

The fawn doe didnt take ): bred to the sf buck. Bloody bolts i dont have money to be feedin her! She is on her third strike at 9mos old and had hersnce 8wks old ):<

Gts was bred back to the sf buck. Got her and the two biggest does moved to the colony pen. Turned out the gts are the biggest four and two were bucks. Theyll stay at least until she births. I want to see how it will got amongst them. Probably keep one to replace nz fawn at this point.<br /><br />__________ Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:13 am __________<br /><br />The nzw doe is pulling fur. She is due 21st and i feel plump kits in her and her milk veins are fillin already. I am thinkin though that she is gonna have a smalish litter, 4-6. Gut keeps sayin 4 so will have to see. If she does just have a couple i will probably see how she does for a week and breed her back as long as she is in good condition. Probably to the sf buck. Maybe both bucks just to see.

 

[akane]

I wouldn't give up on a 9month old large breed unless one of your goals is fast maturing rabbits. Some aren't ready to breed until 8months. Especially if they are mutts with a little flemish in them. Winter also isn't the best time to test your young does. Many won't breed in winter so again unless winter breeding is one of your goals they should be given more chances during that time. I'd wait till spring and then give her a last chance.

A nz nonextension agouti should be a red not a fawn. The cream belly and markings does not make it a fawn. It makes it a red without the wideband gene.