Just picked up this doe at an auction to screw with my color genetics for fun. She looks like a frosty/ermine to me, what does the base color look like? Chocolate or sable? Can you have a sable frosty?
Frosty...Sable? Chocolate?
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Thanks for the call-out, @Mckatie
She's pretty. Yeah, I like calling her sable frosty aka sable ermine. You can definitely have both - the sable <c(chl)> is on the C locus, and the ermine/frosty is non-extension <ee> coming from alleles at the E locus. So if she's a sable frosty, she would be <A_B_c(chl)_D_ee>.
I'd go with sable rather than chocolate because the lacing on her ears - where I tend to go for base color reference - does not look at all like chocolate on my screen; it looks sepia.
I thought the ears were definitely a different colour on my screen as wellThanks for the call-out, @Mckatie
She's pretty. Yeah, I like calling her sable frosty aka sable ermine. You can definitely have both - the sable <c(chl)> is on the C locus, and the ermine/frosty is non-extension <ee> coming from alleles at the E locus. So if she's a sable frosty, she would be <A_B_c(chl)_D_ee>.
I'd go with sable rather than chocolate because the lacing on her ears - where I tend to go for base color reference - does not look at all like chocolate on my screen; it looks sepia.
But more gray/blue. However, I'm on my phone. Are there many notable differences between chocolate and sable? I posted pictures of the kits (another post) and I thought they might be chocolate sable .
You are welcome!P.S. so is ermine is detemined by chl with ee?
Thanks for the call-out, @Mckatie
She's pretty. Yeah, I like calling her sable frosty aka sable ermine. You can definitely have both - the sable <c(chl)> is on the C locus, and the ermine/frosty is non-extension <ee> coming from alleles at the E locus. So if she's a sable frosty, she would be <A_B_c(chl)_D_ee>.
I'd go with sable rather than chocolate because the lacing on her ears - where I tend to go for base color reference - does not look at all like chocolate on my screen; it looks sepia.
Awesome, thanks! I also posted another thread with some questions about some other oddballs I picked up...I'm just learning the details of color genetics and I think I started with the hard ones. If you can look at that other thread too, that would be awesome
On my screen, the whole the ear does look blue-ish, but if I look only at the tip, it looks sepia...but as you point out, screens each can have their own versions of colors.I thought the ears were definitely a different colour on my screen as well
But more gray/blue. However, I'm on my phone. Are there many notable differences between chocolate and sable? I posted pictures of the kits (another post) and I thought they might be chocolate sable .
The fur tipping on the forehead has that not-quite-black color as well, which could make you think chocolate - but again, the tip doesn't look chocolate.
For me, some colors are recognizable mostly by the process of elimination.
Ermine, as I understand it, is usually considered non-extension chinchilla c(chd)_ + ee. However, it can also be c(chl)_ + ee, which would technically be non-extension sable chinchilla. The wrinkle there is that sable chinchilla isn't genetically a chinchilla: correctly, it's a sable agouti, since if it had a more dominant chinchilla c(chd), the c(chl) would not be expressed.
I suspect this wrinkle came about because because both chinchilla c(chd) and sable c(chl) block yellow-based pigments, which in an agouti means dark bands + pearl bands. In fact the c(chl) nomenclature refers to the sable allele's original moniker - "chinchilla light." It's just that while chinchilla c(chd) generally affects only the yellow pigments, sable c(chl) also affects the expression of the dark bands, mellowing them out from black to sepia. Interestingly, yet lower on the C scale, himalayan c(h) also has this effect on the dark pigment. In breeds that recognize the himalayan variety, this is implicitly acknowledged in many of their standards, which call for color, e.g. "as near black as possible" (Californian), "dark sepia, to appear black" (Satin), or "as dark sepia as possible" (Rex).
I have an ongoing discussion with a friend who breeds Czech Frosties about the issue of ermine being chin- vs sable-based. Czech Frosties are called frosty/ermine, and from what I gather from breeders they're assumed to be non-extension chins; but it seems to my eye their "veil" looks more sepia than black. When you get down to that little of color in the coat, though, it can be pretty hard to discern the difference. Unfortunately, she's less obsessive about genetics than I am and isn't interested in experimentally out-crossing her (very expensive and rare) Czech Frosties to see what's under the covers.
Added: Maybe @MsTemeraire has something to contribute here, as Czech Frosties have been around her side of the pond a lot longer than they've been in the U.S.
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That's understandableOn my screen, the whole the ear does look blue-ish, but if I look only at the tip, it looks sepia...but as you point out, screens each can have their own versions of colors.
View attachment 43863
The fur tipping on the forehead has that not-quite-black color as well, which could make you think chocolate - but again, the tip doesn't look chocolate.
For me, some colors are recognizable mostly by the process of elimination.
Ermine, as I understand it, is usually considered non-extension chinchilla c(chd)_ + ee. However, it can also be c(chl)_ + ee, which would technically be non-extension sable chinchilla. The wrinkle there is that sable chinchilla isn't genetically a chinchilla: correctly, it's a sable agouti, since if it had a more dominant chinchilla c(chd), the c(chl) would not be expressed.
I suspect this wrinkle came about because because both chinchilla c(chd) and sable c(chl) block yellow-based pigments, which in an agouti means dark bands + pearl bands. In fact the c(chl) nomenclature refers to the sable allele's original moniker - "chinchilla light." It's just that while chinchilla c(chd) generally affects only the yellow pigments, sable c(chl) also affects the expression of the dark bands, mellowing them out from black to sepia. Interestingly, yet lower on the C scale, himalayan c(h) also has this effect on the dark pigment. In breeds that recognize the himalayan variety, this is implicitly acknowledged in many of their standards, which call for color, e.g. "as near black as possible" (Californian), "dark sepia, to appear black" (Satin), or "as dark sepia as possible" (Rex).
I have an ongoing discussion with a friend who breeds Czech Frosties about the issue of ermine being chin- vs sable-based. Czech Frosties are called frosty/ermine, and from what I gather from breeders they're assumed to be non-extension chins; but it seems to my eye their "veil" looks more sepia than black. When you get down to that little of color in the coat, though, it can be pretty hard to discern the difference. Unfortunately, she's less obsessive about genetics than I am and isn't interested in experimentally out-crossing her (very expensive and rare) Czech Frosties to see what's under the covers.
.Thanks! I have 3 frosties at my house @ around 7- 8 months. 2 bucks and a doe. I went and looked at their coats and ears. The ears did in fact look sepia on 2. I didn't look at their bellies, but I believe they are white/cream. I do not recall ever seeing a non white belly on my frosties.
I am interested in breeding the one Frostie, Smoke to one or both of my sable point does. There's a lovely chance at variety.
I bred a rew buck,Sam (out of CC and Oreo) to Velvet (a gts) to see if he is broken. Today, she pulled some fur but I feel she is a week ish away...no other reason except I was curious. Plus, all rabbits are either sold or processed. Velvet has thrown black, red,rew,1frostie and possibly 1 chocolate.
Frosties, being agouti (whether chinchilla- or sable-based), will have white bellies...however, it seems to me that they should still have a darker undercolor there. Here's the belly of a blue chinchilla, which shows the undercolor of an agouti:
However... I don't know if the non-extension <ee>, which makes an agouti into an orange or a frosty, necessarily eliminates that normal slate agouti undercolor. It prevents the normal extension of dark pigment up the hairshaft, but I'm not sure that turns slate undercolor to cream. Since some oranges/reds are faulted or DQd for slate undercolor, that suggests to me that <ee> doesn't necessarily take care of the undercolor.
Most oranges/reds/creams/fawns/frosties are classified as wideband colors, and as I understand it's the wideband <ww> that removes the slate or gray undercolor of an agouti by doubling the width of the intermediate band. It seems to stretch the middle orange band (or pearl band, in a chinchilla or sable) out in both directions, but I've not done any breeding or reading that separates the effects of <ee> and <ww>, which is not surprising since they co-occur so often.
The SOP of the Czech Frosty, considered a non-extension chinchilla, disqualifies for slate undercolor. But it, too, is called a wideband variety by at least one source:
https://minifluffsrabbitry.weebly.com/rabbit-colors-across-breeds.html
That whole MiniFluffs chart, by the way, might be really interesting to you at this point. It has no photos
but it gives a relatively current (2021-2022) consensus on the genotypes associated with different phenotypes across breeds.I don't know of anyone who has described or contrasted what non-extension colors look like with, versus without, wideband alleles. Maybe @MsTemeraire, @judymac, or @reh have some resources they could offer in this regard.
I would very much like to hear what undercolor you find on your frosties!
Not sure how much variety you'll get, since they are both non-extension <ee> and neither have alleles that will allow yellow-based pigments to express. You'll get frosted and pointed, maybe REW or himi.
Smoke, a frosty, will be <A_B_c(chd)_D_ee> and sable point is <aaB_c(chl)_D_ee>. All of their kits will be non-extension agoutis in shades of white and gray, and possibly some selfs in the same shades. If both parents carry chocolate, you may get a chocolate ermine or a chocolate sable point, and if both carry <c(h)> or <c> you could get himis or REWs, but all of those can be pretty subtle in their differences. Then again, with the genetic make-up of your herd, you're getting pretty adept at noticing subtle differences!
I did have a litter out of a self blue chin doe x chinchilla buck that had chinchilla, squirrel, ermine, silver marten and REW (she had a litter of 13!). Other than the two martens, which were black, it was a study in shaded monochrome elegance. Sadly I did not get a picture of the whole bunch, which is a real bummer, but here are some of them:
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MsTemeraire
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They are classified as "Wideband" by ARBA, but they don't necessarily have the wideband gene, so that is somewhat misleading. Other rabbit associations don't call them this. A normal orange, without ww, has white belly colour with no slate undercolour.
Lovely litter! Thank you for sharing the link!!!Frosties, being agouti (whether chinchilla- or sable-based), will have white bellies...however, it seems to me that they should still have a darker undercolor there. Here's the belly of a blue chinchilla, which shows the undercolor of an agouti:
View attachment 43864
However... I don't know if the non-extension <ee>, which makes an agouti into an orange or a frosty, necessarily eliminates that normal slate agouti undercolor. It prevents the normal extension of dark pigment up the hairshaft, but I'm not sure that turns slate undercolor to cream. Since some oranges/reds are faulted or DQd for slate undercolor, that suggests to me that <ee> doesn't necessarily take care of the undercolor.
Most oranges/reds/creams/fawns/frosties are classified as wideband colors, and as I understand it's the wideband <ww> that removes the slate or gray undercolor of an agouti by doubling the width of the intermediate band. It seems to stretch the middle orange band (or pearl band, in a chinchilla or sable) out in both directions, but I've not done any breeding or reading that separates the effects of <ee> and <ww>, which is not surprising since they co-occur so often.
The SOP of the Czech Frosty, considered a non-extension chinchilla, disqualifies for slate undercolor. But it, too, is called a wideband variety by at least one source:
https://minifluffsrabbitry.weebly.com/rabbit-colors-across-breeds.html
That whole MiniFluffs chart, by the way, might be really interesting to you at this point. It has no photos
I don't know of anyone who has described or contrasted what non-extension colors look like with, versus without, wideband alleles. Maybe @MsTemeraire, @judymac, or @reh have some resources they could offer in this regard.
I would very much like to hear what undercolor you find on your frosties!
Not sure how much variety you'll get, since they are both non-extension <ee> and neither have alleles that will allow yellow-based pigments to express. You'll get frosted and pointed, maybe REW or himi.
Smoke, a frosty, will be <A_B_c(chd)_D_ee> and sable point is <aaB_c(chl)_D_ee>. All of their kits will be non-extension agoutis in shades of white and gray, and possibly some selfs in the same shades. If both parents carry chocolate, you may get a chocolate ermine or a chocolate sable point, and if both carry <c(h)> or <c> you could get himis or REWs, but all of those can be pretty subtle in their differences. Then again, with the genetic make-up of your herd, you're getting pretty adept at noticing subtle differences!
I did have a litter out of a self blue chin doe x chinchilla buck that had chinchilla, squirrel, ermine, silver marten and REW (she had a litter of 13!). Other than the two martens, which were black, it was a study in shaded monochrome elegance. Sadly I did not get a picture of the whole bunch, which is a real bummer, but here are some of them:
View attachment 43865
I think if I cross Smoke and the sables the possibilities I can get are chocolate, rew, sable,lilac and other varieties, whether frosties, hemi, pointed, .... there were a lot of possible subtle colours listed. I enjoy the surprise.
Smoke is out of Smokey Jo and CC litter. Miss Mocha and Frosty Delight are out of CC and Oreo Delight. Both does had nice compact bodies.
SJ carries black,chocolate rew,red,and frostie. (She lives above Kalispell now).
Oreo carried black,rew, chocolate... the broken gene in my line came from her. Plus she gave me the sables.
Since I have a lot of rew does Piglet , Solo,Sweetpea , Chance ,Misty and Garnet and Scarlet ; I decided to breed them to Cracked Pepper (broken sable point),Bobby (broken black)and Smoke . Maybe Graham Cracker (red)down the road. But unless a kit is exceptionally eye catching and/or sold quickly , they will all be processed.
I will take photos of their bellies. Jayda will be here today so I can hold and have her take the pictures.
My ermines/frosties have white undercolor, as do my other non-extension red/fawn rabbits. Here is a black pointed white (aka Himalayan or Californian) on the left and a frostie on the right. My ermines mainly get color on the nose and a little on the rest of the face and ears. No dark undercolor.
Forty years ago, we used to get what we then called "fawn agouti"--the rabbits were born pink, and then grew in a golden coat with dark tipping and a dark undercolor. I suspect they were non-wideband non-extension rabbits with the dreaded dark undercolor and heavy smut. Back then, it was just a normal color, and made a lovely yarn when spun up. We called the clear, no-smut, white undercolor wide-band non-extension rabbits "gold", to differentiate them, and it was a beautiful clear bright palomino gold, no red, not pale, but bright gold. Now that everyone breeds for red, I haven't seen that color in decades. Normal chestnut agouti rabbits are born black with the white agouti markings, and grow in the chestnut banding, even though they otherwise looked similar to the more yellowish "fawn agouti". Both had dark undercolor and dark tipping with typical agouti markings, but the "fawn agouti" was more yellowish than the typical full-extension chestnut.
Forty years ago, we used to get what we then called "fawn agouti"--the rabbits were born pink, and then grew in a golden coat with dark tipping and a dark undercolor. I suspect they were non-wideband non-extension rabbits with the dreaded dark undercolor and heavy smut. Back then, it was just a normal color, and made a lovely yarn when spun up. We called the clear, no-smut, white undercolor wide-band non-extension rabbits "gold", to differentiate them, and it was a beautiful clear bright palomino gold, no red, not pale, but bright gold. Now that everyone breeds for red, I haven't seen that color in decades. Normal chestnut agouti rabbits are born black with the white agouti markings, and grow in the chestnut banding, even though they otherwise looked similar to the more yellowish "fawn agouti". Both had dark undercolor and dark tipping with typical agouti markings, but the "fawn agouti" was more yellowish than the typical full-extension chestnut.
Was the "fawn agouti" maybe a chocolate agouti?
Great thought, but No, chocolate agouti rabbits are born chocolate and develop the banding later. These kits were born pink, and developed black hair tips as well, definitely a black-based agouti.
