My black kit is turning brown. Could you help me figure out his colour?

[Naelin]

This 3 month old buck that was completely black (with a grey undercoat and soles) is now turning a faint brown that is visible only under the correct light. The soles are brown as well. It seems the hairs are banded grey-black-brown.
The dam is a Californian and the sire was a Fauve de Burgogne. All of their kits looked the same.

I plan on breeding him as he was the only one to come unaffected after snuffles took a hold of my growout pen and his dad, so I'd like to figure out his colour to see what can I get from him, but I'm very new to it and not great at it

 

[RabbitsOfTheCreek]

Looks very Sable to me

 

[MsTemeraire]

He could be sable, if the red parent carried the shaded gene, c(chl). Sables go through a lot of colour changes as they mature, especially before and during a moult.

 

[Naelin]

He could be sable, if the red parent carried the shaded gene, c(chl). Sables go through a lot of colour changes as they mature, especially before and during a moult.

Could the sable have been carried by the Cali dam instead? her coat is the whitest white on the body while the points used to be black in winter and are now a mix of grey and muddy brown with some black. I see some examples of seal point that look very similar to Himalayan

 

[MsTemeraire]

Could the sable have been carried by the Cali dam instead? her coat is the whitest white on the body while the points used to be black in winter and are now a mix of grey and muddy brown with some black. I see some examples of seal point that look very similar to Himalayan

Shaded is dominant to the Himalayan gene, c(h), which is what Calis have, so no, they can't carry it.

Seal Point/Sable Point is somewhat different to Siamese Sable; even though it looks like a dark-eyed Himi/Cali, it's actually a combination of the shaded gene c(chl) and black Tort. The shaded gene strips the orange out of the Tort coat, leaving just the dark shading on the points.

 

[Naelin]

Shaded is dominant to the Himalayan gene, c(h), which is what Calis have, so no, they can't carry it.

Seal Point/Sable Point is somewhat different to Siamese Sable; even though it looks like a dark-eyed Himi/Cali, it's actually a combination of the shaded gene c(chl) and black Tort. The shaded gene strips the orange out of the Tort coat, leaving just the dark shading on the points.

Thanks a lot. So if I'm doing the letters right that would give me:

Sire: aa bb Cc(chl) D_ ee
Dam: aa B_ c(h)_ D_ E_
Kit: aa Bb c(chl)_ D_ Ee

Would this be correct? Both parents are purebreed from a reputable breeder, so would I be right to assume that the Cali dam is aaBB c(h)c(h) DD EE?
I cannot find any information on the potential colour gene variations of Fauve de Bourgogne so I need to make some guesses...
EDIT: I just inputted that assumed genes for the dam in the colour calculator from omnicalculators and that gives me 50/50% black self and black sable, but one of the kits that died a day old had light grey skin instead of black, so I think I'm still missing something...

 

[Alaska Satin]

This 3 month old buck that was completely black (with a grey undercoat and soles) is now turning a faint brown that is visible only under the correct light. The soles are brown as well. It seems the hairs are banded grey-black-brown.
The dam is a Californian and the sire was a Fauve de Burgogne. All of their kits looked the same.

I plan on breeding him as he was the only one to come unaffected after snuffles took a hold of my growout pen and his dad, so I'd like to figure out his colour to see what can I get from him, but I'm very new to it and not great at it

View attachment 43607

View attachment 43608View attachment 43609

I agree, that current color looks pretty sable-y, except that from what I've seen in my stock, sable doesn't start dark and become lighter, rather it starts pale and gets darker as the rabbit ages. There is a series of photos showing the development of sable color from kit to about 6 months of age on this thread:
https://rabbittalk.com/threads/chinchilla-rex-at-last.36724/#post-355913

Your little buck also doesn't have the distinct shading that is usually apparent on a sable, especially on the feet, but sables do go through some crazy patterns during molt. He can't be a seal, since that comes from having two copies of the sable allele <c(chl)c(chl)>, and as @MsTemeraire points out, the Cal doe can't carry it since sable is dominant to the himi allele <c(h)>.

Since himi <c(h)> is almost the most recessive C allele, you know the doe is either <c(h)c(h)> or <c(h)c>. The sire is a full-color variety, so he's <C_>, which would be <C c(chl)> if he carries sable. So if your little buck is a sable, he'll be either sable carrying himi <c(chl) c(h)> or possibly sable carrying REW <c(chl) c>, depending on what the Cal doe has in second place at her second C locus.

You could try breeding him back to the Cal doe. If you got any full-color rabbits at all, you'll know he's not sable (because this would mean he was a full-color rabbit since <C> can't hide behind any other C allele). If he's sable, you would most likely get a combination of sables, himis and/or REWs.

 

[Mckatie]

A picture of CCs kits at 7 months old they were born lìght and the shading grew in. Same with Cracked Pepper. But half the fun is the unexpected. Cracked Pepper (buck) just sired his first litter with steel tipped doe and the kits came out as 3 chocolate, 3 broken black ,and 2 broken chocolate. Like Alaska showed in her sable photos they changed colour quickly the first week. I was super excited thinking I was getting broken blue, and blue. If I had remembered that thread I would have known better. Still fun colours though.

 

[Mckatie]

I agree, that current color looks pretty sable-y, except that from what I've seen in my stock, sable doesn't start dark and become lighter, rather it starts pale and gets darker as the rabbit ages. There is a series of photos showing the development of sable color from kit to about 6 months of age on this thread:
https://rabbittalk.com/threads/chinchilla-rex-at-last.36724/#post-355913

Your little buck also doesn't have the distinct shading that is usually apparent on a sable, especially on the feet, but sables do go through some crazy patterns during molt. He can't be a seal, since that comes from having two copies of the sable allele <c(chl)c(chl)>, and as @MsTemeraire points out, the Cal doe can't carry it since sable is dominant to the himi allele <c(h)>.

Since himi <c(h)> is almost the most recessive C allele, you know the doe is either <c(h)c(h)> or <c(h)c>. The sire is a full-color variety, so he's <C_>, which would be <C c(chl)> if he carries sable. So if your little buck is a sable, he'll be either sable carrying himi <c(chl) c(h)> or possibly sable carrying REW <c(chl) c>, depending on what the Cal doe has in second place at her second C locus.

You could try breeding him back to the Cal doe. If you got any full-color rabbits at all, you'll know he's not sable (because this would mean he was a full-color rabbit since <C> can't hide behind any other C allele). If he's sable, you would most likely get a combination of sables, himis and/or REWs.

What would that mean pertaining to the "Chocolate " kits of Cracked Pepper? Is he not a broken sable or broken siamese sable? Someone said he was a tri...but I've never heard that term used with a New Zealand. Although we had a good time debating CC's colouring.

 

[Alaska Satin]

A picture of CCs kits at 7 months old they were born lìght and the shading grew in. Same with Cracked Pepper. But half the fun is the unexpected. Cracked Pepper (buck) just sired his first litter with steel tipped doe and the kits came out as 3 chocolate, 3 broken black ,and 2 broken chocolate. Like Alaska showed in her sable photos they changed colour quickly the first week. I was super excited thinking I was getting broken blue, and blue. If I had remembered that thread I would have known better. Still fun colours though.

What would that mean pertaining to the "Chocolate " kits of Cracked Pepper? Is he not a broken sable or broken siamese sable? Someone said he was a tri...but I've never heard that term used with a New Zealand. Although we had a good time debating CC's colouring.

Cracked Pepper - I'm assuming he's the broken one looking into the camera - looks like a broken sable point, which would be <aaB_c(chl)_D_eeEnen>. (Sable point is sometimes called siamese sable, but I prefer sable point because it helps indicate that it's a non-extension color.)

The term tri or tricolor means a broken harlequin, no matter what the breed. So, a tri will be white with spots in black+orange, blue+fawn, chocolate+orange, or lilac+fawn. Since C.P. has no yellow-derived color in his spots, you know he's either a chin- or a sable-based color. The two shades that appear on Cracked Pepper are courtesy of the variations in shading due to the sable allele, and to the pointed effect of two non-extension alleles.

I'd call the two lighter rabbits (to the left of the red rabbit) sable points as well. There can be a great variation in body color on non-extension sables, but a normal sable will have quite a bit darker body than those two, with less dramatic points.

As for the kits, I don't actually feel 100% sure those are chocolates - meaning self chocolates - from those pictures. They certainly could be - that recessive chocolate allele <b> could easily be carried by both C.P. and the steel doe. But it kind of looks like they have shading in the second photo, especially around the lower hindquarters of the solids and on the top left broken. I would not expect a self chocolate to have any variations in shade at all (other than possibly paler areas where the fur is thinner, like the lips, nape or belly on a very young kit). I understand that what I'm seeing could be just an effect of lighting or some other photographic factor, so it's your call on whether what I'm calling shading is real or not. And of course it is possible to have chocolate sables <aabbc(chl)_D_Ee>, too.

I'm not sure if I'm clear on which litter you're referring to, but if the kits above started out looking like blues, that would also suggest they might be sables (darker than the sable points you're used to seeing). While you might expect C.P. to produce more sable points with a doe that was a non-extension color, like red or sable point, on the other hand you'd expect him to produce normal sables <aaB_c(chl)_D_Ee> with a doe that was not non-extension (like steel). He could also produce sable agouti, also known as sable chinchilla, which is not really a chinchilla <c(chd)> but rather <AaB_c(chl)_D_Ee>. I wonder about that bottom kit, which seems to have the light inner ears of an agouti...though that could be due to the broken pattern instead.

You might find out that your broken blacks aren't actually blacks, either. It's trickier with brokens, and I'm not sure which are the broken blacks, but it looks to me like at least two of the kits have light inner ears. Also, steels start out looking black and don't develop the steel ticking until a little later (though steels don't usually have light inner ears). Finally, if you get that steel allele <E(S)> together with two self alleles <aa> you'll have self steels, which do indeed look black but will not breed true - as soon as you throw an otter <a(t)> or agouti <A> back into the mix, steels or steeled otters/martens will pop out.

I'd love it if you'd post more photos of this litter in another week or two!

 

[Mckatie]

Cracked Pepper - I'm assuming he's the broken one looking into the camera - looks like a broken sable point, which would be <aaB_c(chl)_D_eeEnen>. (Sable point is sometimes called siamese sable, but I prefer sable point because it helps indicate that it's a non-extension color.)

The term tri or tricolor means a broken harlequin, no matter what the breed. So, a tri will be white with spots in black+orange, blue+fawn, chocolate+orange, or lilac+fawn. Since C.P. has no yellow-derived color in his spots, you know he's either a chin- or a sable-based color. The two shades that appear on Cracked Pepper are courtesy of the variations in shading due to the sable allele, and to the pointed effect of two non-extension alleles.

I'd call the two lighter rabbits (to the left of the red rabbit) sable points as well. There can be a great variation in body color on non-extension sables, but a normal sable will have quite a bit darker body than those two, with less dramatic points.

As for the kits, I don't actually feel 100% sure those are chocolates - meaing self chocolates - from those pictures. They certainly could be - that recessive chocolate allele <b> could easily be carried by both C.P. and the steel doe. But it kind of looks like they have shading in the second photo, especially around the lower hindquarters of the solids and on the top left broken. I would not expect a self chocolate to have any variations in shade at all (other than possibly paler areas where the fur is thinner, like the lips, nape or belly on a very young kit). I understand that what I'm seeing could be just an effect of lighting or some other photographic factor, so it's your call on whether what I'm calling shading is real or not. And of course it is possible to have chocolate sables <aaB_c(chl)_D_Ee>, too.
View attachment 43644
I'm not sure if I'm clear on which litter you're referring to, but if the kits above started out looking like blues, that would also suggest they might be sables (darker than the sable points you're used to seeing). While you might expect C.P. to produce more sable points with a doe that was a non-extension color, like red or sable point, on the other hand you'd expect him to produce normal sables <aaB_c(chl)_D_Ee> with a doe that was not non-extension (like steel). He could also produce sable agouti, also known as sable chinchilla, which is not really a chinchilla <c(chd)> but rather <AaB_c(chl)_D_Ee>. I wonder about that bottom kit, which seems to have the light inner ears of an agouti...though that could be due to the broken pattern instead.

You might find out that your broken blacks aren't actually blacks, either. It's trickier with brokens, and I'm not sure which are the broken blacks, but it looks to me like at least two of the kits have light inner ears. Also, steels start out looking black and don't develop the steel ticking until a little later (though steels don't usually have light inner ears). Finally, if you get that steel allele <E(S)> together with two self alleles <aa> you'll have self steels, which do indeed look black but will not breed true - as soon as you throw an otter <a(t)> or agouti <A> back into the mix, steels or steeled otters/martens will pop out.

I'd love it if you'd post more photos of this litter in another week or two!

Alaska, I love the depth of your knowledge and your eloquent, straight forwardness. You always give me something to think about, something new to learn. Thank you.

I did put sable point on the pedigrees for the does as well as broken sable point for Cracked Pepper. It did throw me that someone would call him a tri. I have tri in my rex line. I posted their babies photos here 8 +months ago so when we discussed smoked pearl vs sable point; and sallander vs sable point for their sire CC.

The mother is Chocolate Truffle, we also chatted about her previously. She always threw black,rew and maybe a chocolate with CC. I say maybe because Chocolatte grew out of the "chocolate " phase,grew darker and tipped out just like his "black" brother Poe. The other"chocolate" could have molted out as well.

Fortunately, for me, my rabbits are not bred for shows outside of 4H, but kept as pets, or meat producers. Which just means I can have a lot of fun with colours. I bred CP, Bobby(broken black from 2nd litter) (to 2 Rew) and Sam (rew from 2nd litter) (to Velvet)so I'm expecting a lot of variety. Added to that I bred Smoke (Frosty) to a rew. And CP to Mouse (frosty).
Which makes it interesting and fun for me, and hopefully a lot of dog food.
I will take more photos. The "chocolate" had lighter but solid colored bellies at a couple days old.

 

[Mckatie]

P.s there is a "sheen" to the coats of the "chocolate" which due your timely reminder of the "C" properties;have me expecting another change.

 

[Naelin]

My previous comment got kind of hidden because it fell on the mod queue, but I've been working a bit more on decoding the genes and I'm just stumped at the E locus, I fail to understand it.
So far I've gotten this:

Ton (Sire)	Chocolate Orange?	A		b	b	C	c(chl)	D		e	e
Saturno (Dam)	Black Himalayan	a	a	B		c(h)	c(h)/c	D		E
Ran (The kit)	Sable Agouti Siamese?	A	a	B	b	c(chl)	c(h)/c	D			e

I understand the red buck was ee because he was red, and I understand black himalayans are E_ because... that seems to be what calculators say. But I just can't wrap my mind on how to identify what this kit is just by looking at it. His hairs are grey-black-brown. Is that what people mean when they say "gold-tipped", and his belly is brown instead of white, does this make him steel? Or does he have non-extension and his brown belly means he is somehow aa instead of Aa?

As an extra note, before I had to cull the sire he had one more litter with this doe. One of the kits has this same mystery colour and a stillborn had grey skin, so in total they had 6 black self, 2 sables and one something-with-paler-skin (plus some more dark-skinned stillborns), if this helps at all.