How dominant is dark points? - updated pics

[GypsyTinker]

I guess it is from Cali / Himalayans, the dark nose, ears, feet and tail..

I have kits like this from two black FG/Meat Mutts. It seems to be a pervasive trait across a lot of breeds.

Is it very dominant and what if I wanted to avoid it?

 

[Dood]

California and himilayan marked rabbits ALWAYS have red eyes. They are 'pointed' REW and it is recessive so can hide for many generations.

Brown eyed rabbits with points are a different gene on the same C-locus and also recessive but not as recessive as himi or REW.

There are 5 genes on the C-locus in the following order of most to least dominant

C.....normal marked
cchd...dark shaded AKA chinchilla
cchl...light shaded found in sable points
ch....himilayan found in the California breed
c....ruby/red eyed white

We need some pictures or a more detailed description to figure out what your dealing with.

 

[GypsyTinker]

I started with these two rabbits. A free, solid black, "Flemish Giant" who was a pet. He is full grown at like 8.5 pounds... not so giant. But he is a lovable and prolific guy. His name is Buddy. The 9 pound rooster is Chipmunk.

Here he is with Charlotte. She is a Meat Mutt I got from a local farm. They said she is some Cali some Flemish Giant. Her sire is MASSIVE and like silvery agouti-ish.. .I'm new to this fur color/genetics thing. Charlotte is an amazing mother and lets you know if you are late with the feed.

Here are some of the resultant kits:

All of the white ones have points and pink eyes. A touch of blue-ish in the iris, but basically red/pink eyes.

I don't find the points appealing and might like to avoid them. Mostly curious about it as a learning example with breeding my line.

In this litter of 8, I have 4 white/points(1 doe), 1 silvery doe, 1 dark agouti?, 1 black, 1 smokey black (blue-ish). So getting 4 of them got my attention. I expected 4 black and the rest mixed. Their previous litter only had 1 pointed out of 6.

Any help on actual appropriate terms would be appreciated as well

Edit - Continued...


So I have purchased two NZW from a breeder of high repute and known lines. Meet Handsome Hank:

...and Dorothy. She has lost one litter on a terribly cold night. She didn't build a good nest or pull out hair. I learned from it. We'll see if she did.

I plan to breed the young litter's buck with dorothy and then breed hank with the does in that litter. Thus making 3/4 NZW, 1/8 Buddy, 1/8 Charlotte. I just want to make sure I carry the proper traits on from the pool I have.

 

[Dood]

The white ones definately look like the have the himilayan gene.

This means the black buck and doe have a normal colour gene on the C-locus and probably the doe carries a hidden himilayan and the buck has a himilayan or REW.

The brown colour is called chestnut or agouti and the darker brown ones are chestnuts who have a steel gene.

The silver/grey colour is called chinchilla and I am very surprised he is from the same litter as the white ones. You should not have been able to get himi and chin colours in the same litter from your two black rabbits. Is there another buck on the property who could be the father?

 

[GypsyTinker]

Yes, she is from the same litter, that is Two Tone Tanya She stood out on the first day and had a pink underside and dark back.

I edited my above post, trying not to spam up the board.

Thank you so much for this info, I don't understand what REW is at all.

 

[Dood]

REW = ruby/red eyed white

Well I am very confused since you got chinchilla and himilayan from two black rabbits. Are you sure there is no way that another buck could have bred her?

 

[Nyctra]

Maybe the black rabbits aren't really black, but steel?
Just a thought.. >.>

 

[GypsyTinker]

Buddy is 100% the Sire. He is pretty darn black. He was the only buck I owned at the time.

Charlotte (the Dam) has brownish patches of longer hair on her flanks and skirt, she isn't totally black (See 2nd pic in above post). OH! I believe she has some chinchilla blood as well. So she is FG, Cali, Chinchilla, mostly if that helps... Her Sire is a 12 pound chinchilla colored FG.

One of the black kits is very smoky colored.

A couple more pics:

A good shot of the eye.

36 days old and the largest just hit 1 kilo today. 2.2 pounds.

 

[Dood]

Maybe the black rabbits aren't really black, but steel?
Just a thought.. >.>

This is the only explanation.

The doe must be a super steel and has two copies making her look black when she is actually a chinchilla who carries himilayan.

If you test breed her to your white buck all the kits should be chinchilla or himilayan. Please try this and let me know what you get!!

I have a steel NZ buck who produces dark grey agouti kits when bred to my American Chinchilla does. Not many people breed steel and I am very interested to see if my theory is correct

 

[skysthelimit]

What color are his eyes? If they are mottled, or blue gray, he could be a self chin.

 

[GypsyTinker]

So if I understand correctly... You are thinking that Charlotte is a very dark agouti/Chinchilla carrying the himi gene... so that plus REW will be 50/50 Agouti/himi?

I almost bred her with my white buck today. Weather is turning though. Probably late next week.

What is steel and do you have any example pics that would apply to this?

Thanks so much dood

I think her eyes are brown.

 

[Dood]

What color are his eyes? If they are mottled, or blue gray, he could be a self chin.

If she was a self chin (aa & cch_) none of the kits would be agouti, as the father is a self black (aa & C_) Unless he is the one who is a super steel (A_ & C_ & EsEs)

Oops read that wrong!

Of course!
Good thinking, !!
Yes, that makes sense too!!!

The chinchilla (or dark shaded) gene turns any yellow pigments white but a self rabbit doesn't have any yellow pigments, they are solid black, so the chinchilla gene is hidden under a black coat.

The buck could be 'aa' = self and 'cchd_' = chinchilla

So if you test breed him to your red eye white (REW) doe you should get half chinchilla and half himilayan or REW

 

[GypsyTinker]

Well, I'm pretty lost. There is a lot to learn.

I plan to breed Buddy with Dorothy and Hank with Charlotte, so that will be a REW with each of my mutts. That should clear some things up.

Let me put things this way... I want a light coated line, do I have the potential for that with out it being himi?

 

[Dood]

Once you get kits from the REW crosses, it will help alot in determining whats going on genetically

Here is a website explaining self chin and other C-locus colours.http://rabbitsmarties.com/2011/07/rabbi ... explained/

and I use this one as well - http://www.nockrabbits.com/ticked.html

The steel gene has alot of variation in expression - sometimes they are just a darker brown colour, sometimes they have blacker areas, sometimes they have black heads and points and sometimes they are solid black.

I often get super steels in my NZ crosses and sometimes they develop stray white or yellow hairs as they mature but sometimes they dont and they look just like a self black and can fool even experienced rabbit breeders.

The first pic is of my rabbits. The black on the left is actually a super steel and the one on the far right is self black. You can also see the side by side difference between an agouti with and without steel in the rabbits in the center.

 

[GypsyTinker]

Doh, I edited as you replied again. thanks for the prompt responses!

So I want a light coated line, do I have the potential for that with out it being himi?

 

[Dood]

I dont know what you mean by 'light coated', please elaborate.

 

[GypsyTinker]

Light in color, but not white or himi. Even if they were Chinchilla... is that Agouti with a dilute or something... I have no idea what I'm saying either. I just don't want black rabbits in the heat and I don't really like the points.

If I'm understanding... chinchilla, agouti, chestnut and steel, are ALL agouti?? Also Agouti is dominant so if I kept an agouti from this litter and bred it, I would most likely have a ton of agoutis and maybe some solid?

Or is solid impossible and I've got himi or agouti (steel - chin?). Although I might get some that look solid.

 

[Dood]

Light in color, but not white or himi. Even if they were Chinchilla... is that Agouti with a dilute or something...

Yes, they are agouti with a shaded gene that turns yellow to white.

If I'm understanding... chinchilla, agouti, chestnut and steel, are ALL agouti??

Right again, see, its not too tough.

Also Agouti is dominant so if I kept an agouti from this litter and bred it, I would most likely have a ton of agoutis and maybe some solid?

Yup, and maybe a himi or REW since they could be hiding one of these genes.

Or is solid impossible and I've got himi or agouti (steel - chin?). Although I might get some that look solid.

We dont know if we are dealing with self (solid) or super steel yet, in 31 days well know, but chances are you will occasionally get a black rabbit since self (solid) is recessive and can hide in the agouti colours.

Himi and REW can also hide in other colours because it is recessive, and all your current stock carries these genes and your Red Eyed Whites each carry two of them so you are going to be getting alot of white and himilayan for a few generations and it will be difficult to completely eliminate it from your herd.

 

[GypsyTinker]

Your responses have been very informative. The links too. I also found this http://www.threelittleladiesrabbitry.com/colorgenes.php

I'm starting to figure this out. I'll probably do some charting and as you say, 31 days will figure a lot out

Thanks so much, Dood!

So... I think I'm getting it. If I want light rabbits, I want dd... making for a diluted color. As well as ee for extension of light color? This light color, is that the belly color or white? Extension of dark color being from the points inward, sorta?

Also I would want to weed out the ch and favor cchd.

I really appreciate this schooling

edit:

So guessing on this chin I have: A_ B_ Cchd_ dd E_ ? am I catching on or making a mess?

 

[skysthelimit]

I love the last steel Dood,it's very striking.

Steel is one of those genes I love to hate, it's sneaky.<br /><br />__________ Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:30 pm __________<br /><br />

So guessing on this chin I have: A_ B_ Cchd_ dd E_ ? am I catching on or making a mess?

the dd is a D_, not dilute.

I've been trying to get rid of REW for some time. Unfortunately, my best fur is carried by the REWs.