Frosty...Sable? Chocolate?

[5dognightfarm]

Just picked up this doe at an auction to screw with my color genetics for fun. She looks like a frosty/ermine to me, what does the base color look like? Chocolate or sable? Can you have a sable frosty?

 

[Mckatie]

Just picked up this doe at an auction to screw with my color genetics for fun. She looks like a frosty/ermine to me, what does the base color look like? Chocolate or sable? Can you have a sable frosty?

View attachment 43858View attachment 43859you could have a chocolate chinchilla or a chocolate frosty(ermine) ... or? it will be interesting to see what the others say. I noticed you like the sables like I do.

@Alaska Satin @MsTemeraire

 

[Alaska Satin]

Just picked up this doe at an auction to screw with my color genetics for fun. She looks like a frosty/ermine to me, what does the base color look like? Chocolate or sable? Can you have a sable frosty?

Thanks for the call-out, @Mckatie

She's pretty. Yeah, I like calling her sable frosty aka sable ermine. You can definitely have both - the sable <c(chl)> is on the C locus, and the ermine/frosty is non-extension <ee> coming from alleles at the E locus. So if she's a sable frosty, she would be <A_B_c(chl)_D_ee>.

I'd go with sable rather than chocolate because the lacing on her ears - where I tend to go for base color reference - does not look at all like chocolate on my screen; it looks sepia.

 

[Mckatie]

Thanks for the call-out, @Mckatie

She's pretty. Yeah, I like calling her sable frosty aka sable ermine. You can definitely have both - the sable <c(chl)> is on the C locus, and the ermine/frosty is non-extension <ee> coming from alleles at the E locus. So if she's a sable frosty, she would be <A_B_c(chl)_D_ee>.

I'd go with sable rather than chocolate because the lacing on her ears - where I tend to go for base color reference - does not look at all like chocolate on my screen; it looks sepia.

I thought the ears were definitely a different colour on my screen as well
But more gray/blue. However, I'm on my phone. Are there many notable differences between chocolate and sable? I posted pictures of the kits (another post) and I thought they might be chocolate sable .
You are welcome!

P.S. so is ermine is detemined by chl with ee?

 

[5dognightfarm]

Thanks for the call-out, @Mckatie

She's pretty. Yeah, I like calling her sable frosty aka sable ermine. You can definitely have both - the sable <c(chl)> is on the C locus, and the ermine/frosty is non-extension <ee> coming from alleles at the E locus. So if she's a sable frosty, she would be <A_B_c(chl)_D_ee>.

I'd go with sable rather than chocolate because the lacing on her ears - where I tend to go for base color reference - does not look at all like chocolate on my screen; it looks sepia.

Awesome, thanks! I also posted another thread with some questions about some other oddballs I picked up...I'm just learning the details of color genetics and I think I started with the hard ones. If you can look at that other thread too, that would be awesome

 

[Alaska Satin]

I thought the ears were definitely a different colour on my screen as well
But more gray/blue. However, I'm on my phone. Are there many notable differences between chocolate and sable? I posted pictures of the kits (another post) and I thought they might be chocolate sable .
You are welcome!

On my screen, the whole the ear does look blue-ish, but if I look only at the tip, it looks sepia...but as you point out, screens each can have their own versions of colors.

The fur tipping on the forehead has that not-quite-black color as well, which could make you think chocolate - but again, the tip doesn't look chocolate.

For me, some colors are recognizable mostly by the process of elimination.

P.S. so is ermine is detemined by chl with ee?

Ermine, as I understand it, is usually considered non-extension chinchilla c(chd)_ + ee. However, it can also be c(chl)_ + ee, which would technically be non-extension sable chinchilla. The wrinkle there is that sable chinchilla isn't genetically a chinchilla: correctly, it's a sable agouti, since if it had a more dominant chinchilla c(chd), the c(chl) would not be expressed.

I suspect this wrinkle came about because because both chinchilla c(chd) and sable c(chl) block yellow-based pigments, which in an agouti means dark bands + pearl bands. In fact the c(chl) nomenclature refers to the sable allele's original moniker - "chinchilla light." It's just that while chinchilla c(chd) generally affects only the yellow pigments, sable c(chl) also affects the expression of the dark bands, mellowing them out from black to sepia. Interestingly, yet lower on the C scale, himalayan c(h) also has this effect on the dark pigment. In breeds that recognize the himalayan variety, this is implicitly acknowledged in many of their standards, which call for color, e.g. "as near black as possible" (Californian), "dark sepia, to appear black" (Satin), or "as dark sepia as possible" (Rex).

I have an ongoing discussion with a friend who breeds Czech Frosties about the issue of ermine being chin- vs sable-based. Czech Frosties are called frosty/ermine, and from what I gather from breeders they're assumed to be non-extension chins; but it seems to my eye their "veil" looks more sepia than black. When you get down to that little of color in the coat, though, it can be pretty hard to discern the difference. Unfortunately, she's less obsessive about genetics than I am and isn't interested in experimentally out-crossing her (very expensive and rare) Czech Frosties to see what's under the covers.

Added: Maybe @MsTemeraire has something to contribute here, as Czech Frosties have been around her side of the pond a lot longer than they've been in the U.S.

 

[Mckatie]

On my screen, the whole the ear does look blue-ish, but if I look only at the tip, it looks sepia...but as you point out, screens each can have their own versions of colors.
View attachment 43863
The fur tipping on the forehead has that not-quite-black color as well, which could make you think chocolate - but again, the tip doesn't look chocolate.

For me, some colors are recognizable mostly by the process of elimination.


Ermine, as I understand it, is usually considered non-extension chinchilla c(chd)_ + ee. However, it can also be c(chl)_ + ee, which would technically be non-extension sable chinchilla. The wrinkle there is that sable chinchilla isn't genetically a chinchilla: correctly, it's a sable agouti, since if it had a more dominant chinchilla c(chd), the c(chl) would not be expressed.

I suspect this wrinkle came about because because both chinchilla c(chd) and sable c(chl) block yellow-based pigments, which in an agouti means dark bands + pearl bands. In fact the c(chl) nomenclature refers to the sable allele's original moniker - "chinchilla light." It's just that while chinchilla c(chd) generally affects only the yellow pigments, sable c(chl) also affects the expression of the dark bands, mellowing them out from black to sepia. Interestingly, yet lower on the C scale, himalayan c(h) also has this effect on the dark pigment. In breeds that recognize the himalayan variety, this is implicitly acknowledged in many of their standards, which call for color, e.g. "as near black as possible" (Californian), "dark sepia, to appear black" (Satin), or "as dark sepia as possible" (Rex).

I have an ongoing discussion with a friend who breeds Czech Frosties about the issue of ermine being chin- vs sable-based. Czech Frosties are called frosty/ermine, and from what I gather from breeders they're assumed to be non-extension chins; but it seems to my eye their "veil" looks more sepia than black. When you get down to that little of color in the coat, though, it can be pretty hard to discern the difference. Unfortunately, she's less obsessive about genetics than I am and isn't interested in experimentally out-crossing her (very expensive and rare) Czech Frosties to see what's under the covers.

That's understandable .

Thanks! I have 3 frosties at my house @ around 7- 8 months. 2 bucks and a doe. I went and looked at their coats and ears. The ears did in fact look sepia on 2. I didn't look at their bellies, but I believe they are white/cream. I do not recall ever seeing a non white belly on my frosties.

I am interested in breeding the one Frostie, Smoke to one or both of my sable point does. There's a lovely chance at variety.

I bred a rew buck,Sam (out of CC and Oreo) to Velvet (a gts) to see if he is broken. Today, she pulled some fur but I feel she is a week ish away...no other reason except I was curious. Plus, all rabbits are either sold or processed. Velvet has thrown black, red,rew,1frostie and possibly 1 chocolate.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Thanks! I have 3 frosties at my house @ around 7- 8 months. 2 bucks and a doe. I went and looked at their coats and ears. The ears did in fact look sepia on 2. I didn't look at their bellies, but I believe they are white/cream. I do not recall ever seeing a non white belly on my frosties.

Frosties, being agouti (whether chinchilla- or sable-based), will have white bellies...however, it seems to me that they should still have a darker undercolor there. Here's the belly of a blue chinchilla, which shows the undercolor of an agouti:


However... I don't know if the non-extension <ee>, which makes an agouti into an orange or a frosty, necessarily eliminates that normal slate agouti undercolor. It prevents the normal extension of dark pigment up the hairshaft, but I'm not sure that turns slate undercolor to cream. Since some oranges/reds are faulted or DQd for slate undercolor, that suggests to me that <ee> doesn't necessarily take care of the undercolor.

Most oranges/reds/creams/fawns/frosties are classified as wideband colors, and as I understand it's the wideband <ww> that removes the slate or gray undercolor of an agouti by doubling the width of the intermediate band. It seems to stretch the middle orange band (or pearl band, in a chinchilla or sable) out in both directions, but I've not done any breeding or reading that separates the effects of <ee> and <ww>, which is not surprising since they co-occur so often.

The SOP of the Czech Frosty, considered a non-extension chinchilla, disqualifies for slate undercolor. But it, too, is called a wideband variety by at least one source:
https://minifluffsrabbitry.weebly.com/rabbit-colors-across-breeds.html

That whole MiniFluffs chart, by the way, might be really interesting to you at this point. It has no photos but it gives a relatively current (2021-2022) consensus on the genotypes associated with different phenotypes across breeds.

I don't know of anyone who has described or contrasted what non-extension colors look like with, versus without, wideband alleles. Maybe @MsTemeraire, @judymac, or @reh have some resources they could offer in this regard.

I would very much like to hear what undercolor you find on your frosties!

I am interested in breeding the one Frostie, Smoke to one or both of my sable point does. There's a lovely chance at variety.

Not sure how much variety you'll get, since they are both non-extension <ee> and neither have alleles that will allow yellow-based pigments to express.

Smoke, a frosty, will be <A_B_c(chd)_D_ee> and sable point is <aaB_c(chl)_D_ee>. All of their kits will be non-extension in shades of black/gray/sepia/possibly blue (if they both carry <d>) or just white (if they both carry <c>). I suppose you may get a chocolate ermine or a chocolate sable point, but all of those will be pretty subtle in their difference. Then again, with your herd, you're getting pretty adept at noticing subtle differences!