How dominant is dark points? - updated pics

[Dood]

So guessing on this chin I have: A_ B_ Cchd_ dd E_

I dont think you have any blue (= dd) going on, where did you see that?

Getting non-extension 'ee' can be difficult without starting with fawn(or red or cream) coloured rabbits as they need two copies to see the results and you pretty much have to breed fawn to fawn or you lose it. This gene limits how far black goes up the hair shaft and in most agouti rabbits it is turned a shade of yellow at the outer end but in chinchillas it is turned white so If you add a chinchilla gene to a fawn you get a Frosty (AKA Ermine) which are nearly white and have brown eyes and you said you were not a fan of white.

You have alot of steel kits which is why I though super steel rather than self chin so one or both of your black rabbits carry this gene.

Your buck is supposedly a FG and himilayan and white (REW) are not accepted colours in that breed but chinchilla is so the could be the source, but he is very small for a FG at only 8.5# so he could be a black NZ and white is the most commmon colour so he could carry REW.

Your doe came from Californian lines so I think she is the source of himilayan, and she also came from a chinchilla so she could also be the source of this gene. Well know more once the kits are born.

Genetically
if your buck is a self black = aa B_ Ccch or Cch or Cc D_ Es_ or E_
if your buck is a self chin = aa B_ cchcch Or cchch or cchc D_ Es_ or E_

if your doe is a super steel chin = A_ B_ cchch D_ EsEs
if your doe is a self black =aa B_ Cch D_ Es_ or E_

your REW doe and buck = __ __ cc __ __ but usually they are agouti (A_) and many carry steel (Es_)

 

[skysthelimit]

Doesn't it seem like so many REW NZ's carry steel?

 

[Dood]

Doesn't it seem like so many REW NZ's carry steel?

Yes it does and it makes me wonder about colour genes and growth rate, reproduction, feed conversion and all the other traits that white rabbits are bred for instead of a 'purdy' colour.

Other than being dominant, is there another reason why so many of the REW and Cali's are really agouti steels underneath and never tort, sable point or fawn? Is there some link between these genes and good production traits?

Curiouser and curiouser....

 

[skysthelimit]

Yes I wonder. As much as I dislike REWs, they are usually my fastest growers and the best fur quality, across the Rex, Mini Rex and Jersey Woolys.

 

[GypsyTinker]

Now that you mention the correlation, are there any traits typical to rabbits with the chinchilla gene?

I'm thinking my line might be best to go with steel chinchilla, mixed with my NZWs.

A_B_cchd_D_ES_ ?? Is that right?

Do more dominant genes make for a more hearty animal?

 

[3mina]

Now that you mention the correlation, are there any traits typical to rabbits with the chinchilla gene?

My chinchilla Rex are my best producers all round. I get more litters, that colour grows the fastest for me and they tend to have the best conformation in my herd. I'm working on getting those traits into my other colours. I'm having a real size issue and that's the last thing I want in a meat herd.

 

[Dood]

Do more dominant genes make for a more hearty animal?

Well if the commercially bred REW and Californians are any indication, they do tend to be agouti, and many seem to pop out steel kits was well.

The chinchilla gene was one of the first colour mutations so people have had more time to develop the production qualities was well as keep the grey colour and on top of that the colour is usually introduced from the Standard, American or Giant Chinchilla which all have a meaty frame.

It does seem like newer colours tend to be smaller or don't fit the breed SOF as well but when you cull any kits who aren't the 'right' colour, regardless of other qualities, you are limiting your gene pool and are going to have a harder time improving production traits.

 

[skysthelimit]

My chinchilla Rex are actually the slowest growers in the herd, and they are the smallest of all of my Rex. REW and chestnut agouti are the fasters and largest ones.

I do agree about the color issue, but when showing, it's best to keep your colors clean. That being said, there are so few Standard Rex, that anything gets bred to anything (except chin and otter), so my agoutis pretty much carry everything under the sun. I don't believe I have an AA_ in the bunch.

 

[GypsyTinker]

Ok, so it's been a while and Charlotte (Super Steel?) has had a litter by Hank (REW). As soon as they were born, I remembered that Charlotte's dam was REW, don't know if I mentioned that before, her sire is chin.

Here they are at 7 days. 6 REW and 3 dark which had two tone bodies before the fur came in.

On the dark ones, there is a distinctly lighter spot between the ears and shoulders.

See the light skin on the muzzle and feet, the whole belly was light (pink) and the back was dark, before the fur came in.

There are no Himi, which makes me think that Buddy was the one with that gene, meaning he is certainly not a real Flemish giant. As if his size didn't give that away I won't be breeding him again for a number of reasons, but I'm very grateful to have his bloodline in my rabbits. He is a very prolific rabbit and his son, Buddy Jr., is quite like him. Friendly and prolific. I will breed Jr with Dorothy (REW) for her next litter. This will hopefully give me some good does which I will keep for breeding stock to cross with Hank.

So, I believe these dark kits are A_B_C_D_EsEs... the two tone skin makes me think they are agouti, but they are looking smoky black with a lighter wisp between the ears and shoulders... I imagine this will be changing a lot soon...

So, if they are 3 super steels, that means that Hank might be a super steel too, or at least carries steel? I'm glad there are no Himi

Bonus Popple Pic! 2 of these REW kits (Dorothy x Hank) are 1 pound at 21 days! The largest is 525 grams at day 22. I think the smaller two were conceived on the second day of breeding. As a note, she kindled 9 and 4 made it.

 

[skysthelimit]

If they were agouti, there bellies would have remained white,and they would have ticking in the fur and noticeable white ears, rings around the eyes and in the fur.<br /><br />__________ Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:51 pm __________<br /><br />The gray is the slate gray color of the black undercoat, so they are black, or later on, they could end up being steel.

 

[Dood]

If they were agouti, there bellies would have remained white,

But at birth they did, and it could be the steel gene making the fur darker.

But it is very strange to get 3, the only way is if the REW buck is indeed a super steel.

However, another option is that they are silver tipped steel which is a chinchilla coloured rabbit with at least one steel gene. You will only know as they start to grow more fur. This will confirm that your black doe carries the chinchilla gene.

 

[GypsyTinker]

If there are no Himis in this litter, that confirms that Charlotte has chin, right? She has thrown chin and himi when bred with Buddy.

Just to be sure, Self rabbits have slightly lighter colored fur on the bottom of their feet, right? Also, their hair is not actually solid colored all the way down, right? Mine are ALL lighter if you blow on them.

 

[Dood]

If there are no Himis in this litter, that confirms that Charlotte has chin, right? She has thrown chin and himi when bred with Buddy.

Yes, but if Charlotte is a self black she could carry chin AND himi and we still dont know if she is a self black or not - this litter isn't helping. We need to wait and confirm that these black looking kits are indeed agouti with at least one or two steel genes and only time will tell.

their hair is not actually solid colored all the way down,

Generally true, there some rarer genes (extreme black, wideband, multiple rufus factors) that can affect this but in most mutts the undercoat is a slightly ligher colour than the guard hairs.

However, the steel gene is more common and can make agouti rabbits look like self blacks when newborns.

I have attached a couple pictures of my steels.

My steel chinchilla looked black until 2 weeks old, then she started to grey out and now is lovely dark grey at 7 weeks. She is a replacement doe as she is the best of her litter from my most productive doe, but she had a brother who was also steel chin but was alot darker than her with hardly any grey.

With the chestnut steels it depends, some I can tell at birth they are not true blacks and others it takes a few weeks.

P.S. the chestnut kit carries the japanese harlequin gene so looks a bit mottled

 

[skysthelimit]

If they were agouti, there bellies would have remained white,

But at birth they did, and it could be the steel gene making the fur darker.

But it is very strange to get 3, the only way is if the REW buck is indeed a super steel.

However, another option is that they are silver tipped steel which is a chinchilla coloured rabbit with at least one steel gene. You will only know as they start to grow more fur. This will confirm that your black doe carries the chinchilla gene.

The steel gene would make a white belly and ears turn dark? The only steel agoutis I have seen still had agouti markings. Maybe it depends on the color of the kit. Steel does have incomplete dominance.

 

[GypsyTinker]

Here are a couple shots of Charlotte, let me know what it means

The little blaze on her forehead shows up on many of the kits too.

I think the difference, skysthelimit, is that they may be "Super Steel" which is double Es and is very strong.

 

[Dood]

It doens't help much. That is normal for a self black and a super steel that look black but are actually chestnut with two steel genes.

Super steels can be shown as black rabbits and often are. I once got burned by purchasing a black Netherland Dwarf to get new blood into my seals and siamese sables who turned out to be a super steel and gave me a bunch of chestnuts kits!! I was not a happy camper.

Last month your two black rabbits had chestnut, steel and chinchilla kits and you are absolutely positive the 'black' buck is the father so one of them MUST be a super steel. It is the only way to hide the agouti gene.

We will just need to wait and see what colours these 3 'black' kits turn out to be.

 

[skysthelimit]

This is why I have no love of steel, I have enough issues test breeding REWs, or any other color.

 

[GypsyTinker]

Not to fuss with you Dood, as I hope you know I respect your knowledge, but it seems to me, if we can't tell what Charlotte is as a full grown rabbit, how will we know between now and when these are full grown?

What about the fact that they had two tone skin?? The self black kits from previous litters were easy to tell apart from agouti on day one. The self black kits were black all over at birth. Is that not definitive? Also, the brown that Charlotte shows in that first pic.

 

[skysthelimit]

The brown could just be molt or fade, eventually all of my blacks look like that and never go back. Dilutes fade in the sun too.

Or seal looks like brown in the light, or self chin looks like black in the light.

This could become tricky.

 

[Dood]

Please dont worry about offending me, I like people to question my statements, I do make mistakes and dont mind admitting them.

I work with steel and have for many years, thanks to that super steel buck back in the day and my current steel buck and I know it can be VERY difficult to tell them from self black.

If I had my hands on them I could tell you in a second but as I am relying on pictures I cannot be certain, they really dont do the colours justice and I would rather be safe than sorry.

how will we know between now and when these are full grown?

Because steel rarely has the same effect in rabbits, even in litter mates. I am hoping these kits begin to lighten with age, just like my steel chin did, and that they will not be the black version of super steel but one that is easier to recognize.

What about the fact that they had two tone skin

This is a very good sign that they do indeed carry the agouti gene but again, not all self blacks are pitch black as kits so it could be a trick.

the brown that Charlotte shows in that first pic

It looks alot like sun bleaching, and some blacks are just not as 'rich' looking, especially in mutts.

There is no rush, they are only a few days old, we'll have 8 weeks to figure this puzzle out.