How dominant is dark points? - updated pics

[GypsyTinker]

I don't see how the sun can bleach out a little stripe in her forehead... She has looked exactly like this since I got her at 5 months old.

Who knows... these that I think are REW might even be himi...

Guess it's the waiting game....................

 

[Dood]

I don't see how the sun can bleach out a little stripe in her forehead

Steel wont do that either but molting can since it is not an area she can reach very well so these hairs are often not groomed out.

 

[GypsyTinker]

This first picture shows their color most accurately.

 

[Dood]

They look like regular blacks but if they are super steel then they could look black as well.

The lighter, grayish belly and feet are normal in black kits. If they are steel I would suspect a touch of brown around the muzzle and at the back of the neck. It is highly unlikely that the 3 black kits are all double steel and less likely you have two super steels but stranger things have happened.

There is still time to see if they get any brown or grey hairs.

 

[skysthelimit]

Where is the smiley with the dig magnifying glass?

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

That kit looks sable or siamese sable..I think the doe is too. In fact the whole litter in this last picture looks like an American Sable litter.

 

[Dood]

Interesting theory, they are quite rare and the does father was a chinchilla FG so I didn't consider that. Hmmmm

I believe that America Sables come in two shades
Seal is nearly black with two light shaded = A_ B_ cchlcchl D_ E_
Sable is lighter and with one light shaded = A_ B_ cchl_ D_ E_

She had a litter with a REW and there was 3 "black" and the rest REW so she would be "cchl c"

But that won't work since her first litter from a black buck (or he looked black) had chestnut, black, chinchilla and himilayan. If she is "cchl c" there is no way for him to carry black, chin and himilayan.

Wait ... if he is a self chin he could carry chin and himi - aa B_ cchd ch D_ E_

Maybe she is a sable, and all her black kits are really sables as well. But she doesn't seem dark enough from pictures of American Sables I have found on the web, but I am not familiar with the breed. She is dark enough to be a seal but then she could not have REW kits.

Very confusing

 

[GypsyTinker]

The drama continues....They might not be REW...

I think I see a tinge of color coming in on the points of one of them...

Where is the fast forward button on these things!??!

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Where is the fast forward button on these things!??!

:lol:

 

[skysthelimit]

The drama continues....They might not be REW...

I think I see a tinge of color coming in on the points of one of them...

Where is the fast forward button on these things!??!

duh, duh, duh...the plot thickens...

 

[GypsyTinker]

So I took some more pics today.

They are not REW, they are ch!

Thank you all for so much help on this! I'm boggled! :x

In reading on American Sables, it said that they grunt when distressed, this doe grunts about almost anything!

 

[Dood]

Well, they certainly look like they have that smokey brown sable look to them in these pictures. The ears, feet and face 'should' be slightly darker and the body 'should' lighten a little bit with age, but the mom didn't so maybe you have some sort of super dark sable.

If they are himi's then that would make mom "cchl ch" and your black buck could be a black "C cchd/ch/c" or a black self chin who is "cchd ch/c" and the kits from the first litter could indeed be black and not sables.

Wow, how weird to get a super rare breed/colour like that!

 

[GypsyTinker]

Some more pictures of Charlotte, the Dam.

These colors have not changed, as if she was molting... They are very consistent.

So is it possible that she/they are sable? or... cchl? If I understand, the cchl is only somewhat dominant and the gene it is paired with will affect how the cchl is expressed. So... Charlotte may be cchl/ch which would show dark like this, but the grayish kits are cchl/c and show evenly but lighter than black?

What sort of percentages of rabbits have cchl? How rare is it?

Would this mean her FG sire is not cchd but cchl... I need to go back to where I got this rabbit and see the mother again. I knew nothing when I got her... her dame must have been ch, not c... right?

 

[skysthelimit]

Not rare, but not usually found in the larger breeds as a standard color.

 

[GypsyTinker]

Ok, I think it best to just continue this thread, although I'm considering a sort of family tree thread starting from scratch.

To recap a bit. Buddy x Charlotte = Buddy Jr and Serena All 4 of these rabbits look black Charlotte has brown patches that do now seem to be getting more light brown.

Buddy x Charlotte also resulted in chinchilla, pointed, chestnut, black and not quite so black.

So I got two REW NZW named Hank and Dorothy. Breeding them gave me more REW, no surprise

The kits from Charlotte x Hank were all either sable looking or himi with sable looking points.

Serena x Hank resulted in pointed, sable and chestnut. There is also one that I believe is called Ermine! It is pointed, but not white, it's got a slightly darker band on the white hairs! (middle pointed one)

Now... Buddy JR x Dorothy... I got a chestnut and 3 chinchillas that TOTALLY looked BLUE until about day 7 (other than the ears).

Chestnut

Ghost Chinchilla? Chin + Sable or something...? I have no idea!

I'm trying to figure out the genetics on these rabbits so I can control what I get, but all I am getting is more confused

I'm thinking:

Buddy aa B_ C/Cch D
Charlotte Aa B_ Cchl/Cch D_
Dorothy AA B_ cc D_
Hank Aa B_ cc D
Junior aa B_ C/Cchl D_
Serena aa B_ Cchl/Cch D

Confused... HELP!

 

[Secuono]

Charlotte looks to be black that's sun bleached and the lighter brown is old bleached fur that hasn't molted yet. My black mutts 'turn' brown in the sun, then when they are molting, they end up two toned black/brown, brown/chocolate or even chocolate/black.
She looks exactly like my AmChin x SF, other than she doesn't have slight silvering. But the molting is the same.
Pull her coat, the brown spots on her legs and such, the fur should come out and be obvious it's old molted fur that hasn't been groomed out yet.

Molting black rabbits.

 

[GypsyTinker]

That is one possibility, but doesn't explain the light black kits. If she is a black rabbit, it makes most of her offspring impossible. That is the crux of this whole dilemma Oh, also, I know what you mean about the molted hair coming out easily as if it has not been groomed. not the case with this doe, it doesn't pull easily... It just stays like that... it's been getting a bit lighter the past month or two. Could be sun, but could be Siamese sable, from what I understand.

When I bred two black rabbits in the beginning, I thought this would be simple. the first litter proved that she can not be a black rabbit. What is she though? That is the question.

So far Super Steel, Siamese Sable and self chin have all been guesses I have no idea and it really is confusing.


Edit: wow those pics do look like her! I'll try pulling more...

Edit again: Tried pulling that fur again... no go. It's her current proper fur. It has been at least somewhat like that since I got her last summer. the past couple months she has gotten lighter.

 

[Secuono]

I don't know genetics, so I can only help out with the mixes I've had [color combos] and with the molting.

 

[Dood]

I think the chinchilla kits are steel chinchilla AKA silver tipped steel and have attached a picture of some of my steel rabbits next to a black and a normal chinchilla

The steel gene is on the E-locus and is the most dominant of the 4 gene mutations found there.
Es = steel
E = normal
ej = japanese harlequin
e = non-extension (seen in tortoishells, fawns, sable points and frosty/ermine)

 

[GypsyTinker]

Dood! I need more from you If you are willing.

Did you notice above that I got an frosty pointed? What does that mean for Hank x Serena? Is that ee?

I really want to nail down what genotypes I have.

I was thinking the frosty would be a good clue to nail something down.

Normal white with points in background. Foreground is frosted.