How do buyers react to line-breeding?

[Zass]

ahhhh, line breeding! I've seen the good, the bad, and the very ugly side of that in rabbits!

I've known some breeders to breed back a show rabbits to different rabbits and then line breed to see what they are made of. It can show the positive and the negative in the bloodline which is what a lot of people want to know when they breed show bunnies.

Other people don't care because they are going in the pot anyway.

for me I test my lines to see if there is any weakness in the body and to see what color I'll get. All my choco. chinchillas are line bred for their color (not by me) but they have no health issues so I feel safe to breed to other none related rabbits to better the body.

Celice, if you still have the pics, you could make a photo thread to highlight how it can go wrong.

 

[Celice]

ahhhh, line breeding! I've seen the good, the bad, and the very ugly side of that in rabbits!

I've known some breeders to breed back a show rabbits to different rabbits and then line breed to see what they are made of. It can show the positive and the negative in the bloodline which is what a lot of people want to know when they breed show bunnies.

Other people don't care because they are going in the pot anyway.

for me I test my lines to see if there is any weakness in the body and to see what color I'll get. All my choco. chinchillas are line bred for their color (not by me) but they have no health issues so I feel safe to breed to other none related rabbits to better the body.

Celice, if you still have the pics, you could make a photo thread to highlight how it can go wrong.

I did but it looks like they got deleted! It was BAD! do you remember the mutant chinchilla buck I had to butcher a couple of years ago?

 

[Zass]

I did but it looks like they got deleted! It was BAD! do you remember the mutant chinchilla buck I had to butcher a couple of years ago?

I don't think anyone could forget something like that.

 

[Celice]

I don't think anyone could forget something like that.

Yeah, felt really bad for that one. But good thing is I've never seen another like it, but I think that one bunny pulled the short straw in genetics.

 

[ottersatin]

The posts above have made me feel sorry that I bothered to post
anything about "Line-breeding"!
If you are not breeding for any other reason than filling a Stew Pot,
then there is no necessity for bothering with taking the time to
gain the knowledge as to what may constitute a reliable step
in improving the strengths of the members of your herd.
It matters not what genetics are in the background/make up of
a Rabbit bred for nothing but to provide a good substantial meal.
I breed my Rabbits so that they may be both, show worthy and
provide a substantial meal should that become their end use.
Ottersatin. ldtimer:

 

[Celice]

The posts above have made me feel sorry that I bothered to post
anything about "Line-breeding"!
If you are not breeding for any other reason than filling a Stew Pot,
then there is no necessity for bothering with taking the time to
gain the knowledge as to what may constitute a reliable step
in improving the strengths of the members of your herd.
It matters not what genetics are in the background/make up of
a Rabbit bred for nothing but to provide a good substantial meal.
I breed my Rabbits so that they may be both, show worthy and
provide a substantial meal should that become their end use.
Ottersatin. ldtimer:

It's actually a good thing to bring up! Some of the newbies at rabbits may not know anything about it and it's good they learn now then later when something BAD happens.

the buck I was talking about came from another breeder that was just breeding to breed and gave a few to me to put in the pot and this really horrible buck was in that few. His face was rounded and lower jaw extended up over over his nose, the teeth were curved back and over his face. His back legs were the same length as the front ones and his back was really stiff. I butchered him first he was having the hardest time breathing and it makes me wonder how he lived so long.

This is what happens when you breed mother to daughter to father to brother over and over with no new blood coming in. it shows the very nasty in genes and no mater how much I told the guy not to do it he didn't seem to care.

For SAFE linebreeding It's best to breed ONCE to a cousin or uncle but that's IT. I know some other people do more but after seeing that buck I try to stay away from linebreeding. And it's best that for the good of the herd to keep it to a minimum at least that's my opinion.

 

[Dood]

Line and inbreeding is fine as long as you mercilessly cull/kill any offspring with defects AND often their relatives.

There is a world of difference between killing who ever is the slowest for the stew pot and SELECTIVELY killing the rabbits with the slower growth rate or poor confirmation or scraggly fur or crappy mothering instincts or etc... etc... etc... for the stew pot and keeping the BEST as future breeders.

In my experience the pet buyers often like the "different" looking kits - like the ND who is the only kit in the litter who doesn't have an apple shaped head or the MLop with one ear up and one down :groooan: and if they decide to have a litter with their friends "odd" looking bunny (by show or production standards) you get all sorts of ugly :x

 

[JenerationX]

In my experience the pet buyers often like the "different" looking kits - like the ND who is the only kit in the litter who doesn't have an apple shaped head or the MLop with one ear up and one down :groooan: and if they decide to have a litter with their friends "odd" looking bunny (by show or production standards) you get all sorts of ugly :x

So... this attraction I seem to be developing for very lightly marked brokens and/or charlies (not sure I get the difference yet).... :lol:

It'll be years before I'd even consider breeding, if ever though.

 

[Zass]

The posts above have made me feel sorry that I bothered to post
anything about "Line-breeding"!
If you are not breeding for any other reason than filling a Stew Pot,
then there is no necessity for bothering with taking the time to
gain the knowledge as to what may constitute a reliable step
in improving the strengths of the members of your herd.
It matters not what genetics are in the background/make up of
a Rabbit bred for nothing but to provide a good substantial meal.
I breed my Rabbits so that they may be both, show worthy and
provide a substantial meal should that become their end use.
Ottersatin. ldtimer:

I don't know about anyone else, but I really appreciated reading what you had to say about it.

I was simply thinking that both sides of the story are important.

Celice has seen (and photographed) how poorly done inbreeding can manifest, and that could be an important warning for those who would like to inbreed or line breed, but aren't willing to do the research, or terminally cull.

I wasn't thinking that meat breeders needed it, since they already know how to cull anything weird that crops up. They will, inevitably, take responsibility for what they have produced.

It's the people who produce pets, and proudly proclaim that they will find homes for every single animal that they produce who could probably make use if the worst-case-scenario visual.

I tend to think that genetic deformities are quite rare, especially in purebred lines where generations of breeders have gone through the hard work of identifying carriers of abnormalities and removing them from the gene pool.

For those of us who are really interested in health and medicine, it can be worthwhile just to observe and discuss something as unusual as that. <-my ulterior motive

 

[Dood]

Maloculussions were a HUGE problem in ND in the 80's and most of the bunnies who needed their teeth trimmed by the vets I worked for in the 90's were ND, Holland Lops and other small breeds or mixes, but that might just be due to them being more popular or having owners who would pay someone to trim them rather than doing it themselves or culling the bunny :shrug:

I didn't see many spay legged rabbits, there were a couple with glaucoma (really nasty cases that were left too long and were brought in for euthanasia ) which is genetic in some cases.

Split penis seems to still be prevalent but I don't think it's more common in the pet bloodlines so maybe it's not as genetic as commonly believed - or a serious enough fault to cull for :mrgreen:

 

[Rainey]

Line and inbreeding is fine as long as you mercilessly cull/kill any offspring with defects AND often their relatives.

There is a world of difference between killing who ever is the slowest for the stew pot and SELECTIVELY killing the rabbits with the slower growth rate or poor confirmation or scraggly fur or crappy mothering instincts or etc... etc... etc... for the stew pot and keeping the BEST as future breeders.x

Although we've raised other animals (goats, pigs, chickens) for years, we haven't bred anything until we started with rabbits this year. We're growing for meat, for ourselves, not to sell. We started with 2 NZW does and a SF buck. We've saved 2 does from litters born this year to breed next season. One doe we started with was culled because her first litter was 7 and the next 6 with 2 doa so only 4 live. The other doe had 8 each of 3 litters and all lived thrived until butchering. But she bit the hands that fed her more than once so had to go.
We planned to breed the 2 does (and may keep a third from the litter born in October) back to the SF buck. Not because he is an outstanding specimen but because the does bred to him caught each time, he is healthy and friendly. His faults are narrow shoulders and he's underweight for a SF. But if we culled all the relatives when we culled the does, we'd have nothing left but that buck. Starting over I'm not confident that we'd be in any better shape. So what do we need to know about breeding besides "breed the best and eat the rest"? The discussions of breeding in the older books are very negative about breeding close relatives. On RT line-breeding seems quite common. If I'm looking for health and good meat production and good dispositions but not trying to develop some color for pelts does it matter to know about recessive genes etc? Any recommendations for what someone with my goals should read about breeding?

 

[Prisma]

Line/inbreeding is the only way to see the good, bad, and ugly of a given pool. I line/inbreed heavily, I cull any thing that cannot live a normal life with no additional help. The best show breeders do this, I don't know of any that completely breed outside their lines all the time, its the only way to get conformity and solidify good traits into a line. I used to think it was bad, avoided it as much as possible and refused to buy any thing that was; now I prefer to do the complete opposite. I want to know what ugly mess that beautiful typed Holland or Mini Rex is hiding, if it produces some thing that doesn't produce a normal life living rabbit and it does it consistently instead of just a rare fluke; its a definite line problem and that line should not be bred further imo. My first lionheads seemed fine, after a 2 generations of cousins breeding back, a few popped up out of a dozen or so litters with bad teeth. Decided to do nothing but heavy brother to sister etc breeding. After another 2-3 breedings out (would have to look back to see for sure) entire litters were coming out with issues with teeth, etc....consistently SO it was the line itself that was no good and should be terminated. I terminally culled all of them except for a few pets I kept until they died and never bred that line again AND avoid any I see with any of them listed like the plague. 2 years of work down the drain and nothing to show for it. I had to start completely over. If I'd chosen not to, I'd perpetuated horrible teeth and other issues. Even humans in some parts of the world have line/inbred and done well until introducing outside blood. IF I'm remembering correctly, long ago Egyptians were one of those.

 

[Dood]

"The best" is relative to your goals so pick something to work on, get it going consistantly then focus on another trait.

You must keep excellent records on growth rate, weights, fertility, etc.... and be willing to replace your breeding stock frequently - like every 6 months - with "better" up and coming youngsters

My original trio were VERY inbred (full and half siblings, cousins and second cousins back 5 generations ) - thankfully they had terrific temperament and production qualities but were definitely not show quality their shoulders still need work :roll: but it's not that important to me so I'm not trying to improve them ... yet :mrgreen:

I am currently working on growth rate on a forage, grain and hay diet in my purebreds and disease resistance in my mutts.

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

Some food for thought. Inbreeding definition: http://i.word.com/imedical/inbreeding
Line breeding definition: http://i.word.com/imedical/linebreeding
Out breeding definition: http://i.word.com/imedical/outbreeding


I am still learning this too. But my understanding currently is this..
Line breeding is breeding related animals and keeping the "inbreeding co-efficient" at 50%. You breed all ya like but make sure none will be more than 50/50 genes from each parent. Like those simple red/blue linebreeding diagrams. That means no parent/offspring breeding though since that would be 25/75 genes.
Inbreeding is pretty line breeding plus experimenting with closer breedings and higher gene ratios. Like parent/offspring breedings etc.
Outbreeding could be very good once you carefully breed your line. The key being to find another line as good as or better than yours that you are confident has been breeding out the same unwanted things as you and breeding for the same wanted things as you. I think a good example of this is guppies.. Guppy breeders suggest you have two seperate lines of your guppies. Line #1 is only bred itself and line #2 is only bred to itself. After you are getting what you want with both lines you try some outbreeding between your two lines. <br /><br /> -- Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:52 pm -- <br /><br /> Egyptian royalty only married among egyptian royalty. There was a recent study of Tuts remains and it said he very most likely had club foot and would have a hard time even walking. The picture remake of what they thought he would have looked like was odd. I wanna say i recall possible cleft lip and other teeth issues etc as well.
The egyptians believed the royalty were the best and should only intermarry but that idea was never reassessed with all the health issues. Probably alot because they didnt associate the health problems etc to their actual lineage -> ergo their genes.

 

[ottersatin]

Just a note if I may,
when you are trying to improve your herd:
Never breed two animals with the same fault together.
Always shoot for improvement with every breeding.
When trying to improve, breed a rabbit with a strong shoulder and a
weak hindquarter to another with a weak shoulder and a strong
weak hindquarter if you must. You are seeking offspring with
the best of both partners. With perseverance you WILL attain your goal.
All things come in time with persistence!
Ottersatin. ldtimer: