Feeding Animals Grain, vs hay, produce, morality?

[michaels4gardens]

There are new diseases, and pests resulting from GMO crops, -- that we can only guess about extent of the damage that can be caused.
I hope it is not like the flu vaccine they gave everyone just before the 1918 "spanish flu" pandemic.

 

[Zass]

There are new diseases, and pests resulting from GMO crops, -- that we can only guess about extent of the damage that can be caused.
I hope it is not like the flu vaccine they gave everyone just before the 1918 "spanish flu" pandemic.

Imagine if most of the US is planted to just few GMO grain varieties, both the grain, and the grain fed meat supply could fail.

Now...that's a nightmare waiting to happen.

 

[michaels4gardens]

The main problem I have with most GMO , corn, grain, soy beans-- is they contaminate everyones seeds for miles around.
That is a poison we have no idea how far, or how fast it will spread.and can only find out in time what the real damage is--
we already know it is the end for many open pollinated varieties--

 

[skysthelimit]

I love liver, chicken and beef. Little onions ad gravy made from the juices.
I would hazard a guess and say intestines are about as healthy as sausage. My great grandmother lived till she was 90 something, chitterlings and lard and corn and gristle. But she also lived on a farm most of her life, and got plenty of exercise.

 

[michaels4gardens]

I love liver, chicken and beef. Little onions ad gravy made from the juices.
I would hazard a guess and say intestines are about as healthy as sausage. My great grandmother lived till she was 90 something, chitterlings and lard and corn and gristle. But she also lived on a farm most of her life, and got plenty of exercise.

Grandma, "probly" ate greens , and lots of veggies, also

 

[skysthelimit]

I love liver, chicken and beef. Little onions ad gravy made from the juices.
I would hazard a guess and say intestines are about as healthy as sausage. My great grandmother lived till she was 90 something, chitterlings and lard and corn and gristle. But she also lived on a farm most of her life, and got plenty of exercise.

Grandma, "probly" ate greens , and lots of veggies, also

Well that's a given too, but as stereotypes have some truth, a large portion of most southern black families diets is things fried in grease, things with fat backs, usually from pig, cause beef was/is expensive. Not the best cuts, not the lean stuff. And root crops like sweet potato. Some okra (battered and fried still), and green beans. Collards for roughage. But there is still always more pig on my plate at family gatherings than there is veggies.

 

[michaels4gardens]

I was raised on a ranch in Montana, we were very poor, I was the oldest of 9 kids, it was my job to provide meat for the family-- I raised rabbits, and chickens, a pig now and then, and hunted a lot- --One time I had found nothing to bring home and went back out to work in the field, out there I found a porcupine and killed it with a wrench that was on the tractor, I skinned and cleaned it and took it in the house, -- Mom asked me what it was, -- I told her what it was, -she said "can we eat that"? I said yes, -so-- she put it in a big roasting pan, and filled it up the rest of the way with potato, carrots, etc. cooked it and put it on the table-- my siblings devoured it and said it was the best-- when told what it was [after dinner] my brother just asked if I could find any more of them. Mom would not eat any of it-- she just put a few potatoes, and carrots on her plate, -- sat quietly at the table watching the show, and shaking her head.
----now days I don't eat very much meat, if I have some once or twice a week I am just fine.

 

[skysthelimit]

I need meat in some form. I would never be happy as a vegetarian

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

I need meat in some form. I would never be happy as a vegetarian

My health is better, pain levels lower, when I get plenty of good, RED meat in my diet.

 

[michaels4gardens]

And-- for me-- I need some meat in my diet, but-- I do better with very little "red meat" and moderate amounts of rabbit, fish, and chicken. [once or twice/ week] --and a steak , once or twice / month -- so-- since pork is not "red" does it count as red meat?? or-- is it "the Other White meat" ? -I do notice that if I have no meat at all I get hungry for meat by the end of the week.

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

Meat is what is known as a 'complete protein', meaning it contains all the amino acids needed to produce all the different amino acid chains that build our bodies. Fish is NOT a complete protein source, nor is any group of vegetative plants. Red meats contain the B vitamins and enzymes that help them get absorbed. The darker meat of poultry has SOME of those B vitamins and enzymes, but not enough to be a sole source of protein.
Many people also believe that the iron found in certain plants, for example, spinach, is readily used by our bodies. Not so! The oxalic acid in many greens tie up the iron so that it cannot be properly separated and absorbed in the intestines,( the oxalic acids, though, love to enter our bodies, and for some people, set up housekeeping as kidney stones) The iron in red blood is the best way to get the Heme iron we need to build blood and other tissues. Fish have a glycerine based/enhanced blood supply- not too good about releasing iron.
While pork is not a 'red' meat, any blood in it will contain Heme iron and some B vitamins.

 

[skysthelimit]

Well, darn, that's not goo to here. Meat is expensive, I thought I was doing myself some good by eating more green leafies. Collards are like weeds here and I grow arugula and spinach every year.

I'm not sure where pork falls on the spectrum.

 

[Zass]

Some amount of meat does seem to be good for the body. The real question IMO is what kind of "meat" is it?

Keep in mind most of the studies that claim negative health effects include things like "hotdogs" as "meat".

I don't think products like hotdogs or bologna, venison backstrap, fast food hamburgers, rabbit thighs, or nice lean grassfed steaks, or nitrate-loaded pork products should ever all be studied as "just meat".

They are far too different.

 

[zee]

opcorn: You guys ROCK! I'm learning soo much on this thread!

 

[Dood]

Fish is NOT a complete protein source

I am curious where you got this information from. It is my understanding that fish is not deficient in any essential amino acid and is a "complete protein"

nor is any group of vegetative plants

Generally true - quinoa and even oatmeal are considered complete but you'd need to eat about a pound of the dry grains to meet daily needs Most plant products are incomplete on an individual basis but this is why it is recommended people eat a variety of fruits and vegetables and their seeds.

All plants have protein, just not as concentrated as animal products and often not in the correct amino acid levels or ratios that are recommended for people BUT matching foods high in one essential amino acid to supplement another that is lacking (ie potatoes or rice with beans) will together create a "complete protein"

Since adults generally only need 50grams (1.8 ounces) of protein a day most Americans get more than enough IF they are eating a variety of minimally processed plant foods and they don't have to have meat every day, or at all if they choose a properly balanced vegan diet.

 

[skysthelimit]

Keep in mind most of the studies that claim negative health effects include things like "hotdogs" as "meat".

hot dogs are gross. won't eat one if it can be avoided.

 

[michaels4gardens]

in my reasearch "Vegan" societies failed by the end of the second generation, -- [various theory about why abound]-
however societies that added a little meat and most importantly animal fat, [like some island cultures] did very well and were very healthy-- it is said by some-- that eating Taro root and Taro leaf, will sustain you for many years,[some claim "indefinatly"] as long as some animal fat is eaten with it. -and since I love taro root, and Taro leaf-- I am biased--in favor of their claims.

 

[Dood]

Please elaborate on the "vegan societies" you are refering to.

I know of no vegans before the 18th century but vegetarianism has been around for over 2000 years with no ill effects to their societies and in many cases they thrived and became the dominant lifestyle.

 

[michaels4gardens]

It seems to me the word vegan was/is a "made up " word recently added to our language [in the last couple hundred years].- since vegetarian is a word that means " diet of vegetables/ vegetation" - as often happens, -- people with agendas want to change the meaning of a word to suit their agenda/ or to make a distinction for them selves and their style.-----
------ I was trying to find some history books I have/had -but they are either burried deep or didn't survive my last move-any way--[as I remember-]-- In India some early groups tried to take the Vegetarian thing to the extreem that absoutly no animal products of any kind were used, and[ if I remember right] they also banned the use of animal manure from their food crops, -- any way-- the just of it was,- that they did not do well, and moved back into more "traditional" ways, just banning the killing of animals for food, but not the use of products from animals "freely given" with out harm to the animal. Modern society made the label "vegetarian" to apply to those people-- when their philosophy was about not hurting animals, and not really so much about an "exact diet" [[any way that is the main idea , from what I read]] [the book also had a section that talked about long term fasting and rubbing butter on the skin to help sustain them]
I once talked to a Hawaiian elder who explained his "Taro -not rice" Diet objections to me, a part of that discussion was a history lesson [from his prospective] about their culture. He said it was important traditionally to use animal fat/ and or fatty meat, in making the Lau-lau and luau, [taro leaf foods] and in other traditional plant based food preparation, because they had found that people would eventually get sick with out it, [I believe it had to do with vit B] - he said that there was almost no "sickness", and no "degenerative disease" before modern societies came to help them and provide foods for his people, -- he said all the health problems his people have are caused by the introduction of white rice, white flour, white sugar.[and the "easy" lifestyle]-- [sorry "Dood" I know this skirts your question]

 

[Dood]

and the "easy" lifestyle

This is his people's down fall, not potatoes, flour and rice.

A lack of moral fortitude to "just say no" to the easy and fast foods, and farming techniques, that are harming all humans, not just indigenous ones, is IMHO the biggest problem of the Western world.