Early kindling, what to do now, if anything.

[mcrvdeb]

First time Rex mom, had 10 kits last night (day 26 since breeding) on the wire, all died. Bred doe 12/30, planned on putting in nest box tomorrow on day 28 (01/28) but noticed she was hay staching yesterday morning. Refilled hay at 3:30pm when she was fed and she promptly started enthusiastically stuffing hay in the corner of the cage. I decided to go ahead and put her nest box in at 4:30pm and placed it in the corner she had been staching the hay. Wasn't too concerned because it was day 26, figured she would have plenty of time to get her nest sorted. Went back down to change out water at 8:30pm and discovered that between 4:30 and probably 7:30, she had kindled 10 kits on the wire in front of the nest box which she hadn't touched. No hay, straw, or fur with the kits. All were cold, none revived with warmth. No fur pulling occurred at all, before or after.

I know for a fact that she was bred on 12/30 because I bred 4 does that day. Nearly didn't breed her because she would never lift for the buck, then decided to try tabletop breeding and I held her for him. Well documented because I had pretty much given up on her for breeding. First successful breeding over 4 months of trying. Now this.

Does this happen often? Never even occurred to me that she might have her kits so early. Is the level of urgency they demonstrate a clue that kindling is imminent? Do I need to do anything for her since all the kits died and she won't be feeding? How likely is it that this would happen in subsequent breeding/kindling? I don't have another doe open to be bred right now along with her, so should I wait until the next round in 4-5 weeks or chance it and breed her again by herself? I had already decided to cull her if she didn't have kits this time, but she did have kits, and now I'm not sure what to do.

Looking for advice from experience. I know there are no absolutes, but I have been struggling with breeding since we started raising rabbits this past Sept. Started with 4 supposedly proven Tamuk, and 2 unproven Rex does (7 and 8 months old). Have only had 2 successful litters, total. I've had great nest building, then no kits twice. No nest building after breeding, twice (buck may have been sterile due to heat). Not ready to give up but would really like to learn from all this and move forward a little more successfully.

 

[RabbitsOfTheCreek]

I always give my Does their nest boxes at least a week before they're due

 

[tambayo]

Going into labor early could be stress related. Any predators or mice around to trigger such?

 

[mcrvdeb]

No predators (electric fencing), no mice (chickens, and champion Jack Russel Terrier rat hunter), or any other stressful incident that I am aware of. I spend quite a bit of time around the rabbits on a daily basis and handle them often, so my presence is probably not a stress. I had cleaned under, around cages last week so I wouldn't have to do it just before everyone kindled later this week. Weather has been perfect for rabbits. Completely at a loss.

 

[judymac]

I am so sorry for your loss, it is so hard to get this far and then lose the kits like this. I don't think this is something you could have anticipated. In my four decades plus of raising rabbits, I've never had one kindle early. But, as my goat vet used to say, "Don't get smug, if you raise animals long enough, you'll eventually see everything". (We were discussing various animal ills, and I proudly mentioned that we never had any of those things in MY herd. She promptly set me straight, and she was right, odd things happen to everyone eventually.)

I do wait until the 28th day to put in the nestbox, my angoras usually kindle on the 32nd day. Were the babies she had well formed? If so, she probably didn't abort early due to some difficulty with the babies. She may simply be a rabbit that delivers early, just as some people do.

Not using nesting material at birth is fairly common in first-time rabbits. I usually give them a second chance to get the hang of things. If you rebreed her, I would put the nestbox in much earlier than normal, maybe the 23rd day or so, and let her make her nest (hopefully) in the nestbox.

If she still fails the second time to make a proper nest, I only give another chance to a doe with some outstanding characteristic(s) that I desperately need in the herd, and then only by breeding at the same time as another doe that I can foster the kits to. Mothering ability is an inheritable trait, but I have had fostered kits go on to become great mothers despite their parentage.

As to whether frantic nestbuilding is a sign of imminent birth--not u sually here. I often have does absolutely frantically running around with hay-stuffed cheeks, only to have them later eat all the hay and forget the entire episode for another week.

There is an up-side to the difficulties you've been having with your breeding. You now know there can be difficulties, you are learning coping strategies, and the few litters you have had can become a good foundation. Breeding towards a line that does well in YOUR situation is key. Just because some other breeder in some other place does well with a certain line does not mean they will do well for you. BUT, when you save the kits that do the best for you in your conditions, and breed them, you will eventually end up with a line that is successful for you

I have purchased GCH rabbits that obviously did well for their breeder, that just couldn't do well in my situation. They thrived on fancy rabbit pellets wonderfully, but refused to eat my mix of local grains, and hated greens and hay. The fancy pellet was not a brand we could even get in my state. But, after babying the GCHs, I now have rabbits two generations later that beg for their hay, and produce kits on just my local feed. I selected the kits that grew the best on my feed, and selected the adult does that raised kits on their own. It takes time, and yes, it can be very frustrating when that special stock you spent a lot of time and money on isn't performing to your standards. But, you can keep the best of what does perform for you, and breed up.

Not every bunny lives up to its potential, not every bunny does well in your situation. But there are good rabbits, too, and they will become the foundation of your rabbitry, and you'll remember them fondly in the years to come.

As to when to breed, for me, I find that the first warm days of spring, usually in the beginning of March here, even the recalcitrant does have an urge to breed. I generally breed does back on the 3rd day after losing their litter, but since you have no available foster doe at this time, it might make a good case for waiting. I would have a tough time deciding which way to go, too.

 

[mcrvdeb]

If she still fails the second time to make a proper nest, I only give another chance to a doe with some outstanding characteristic(s) that I desperately need in the herd, and then only by breeding at the same time as another doe that I can foster the kits to. Mothering ability is an inheritable trait, but I have had fostered kits go on to become great mothers despite their parentage.

As to whether frantic nestbuilding is a sign of imminent birth--not usually here. I often have does absolutely frantically running around with hay-stuffed cheeks, only to have them later eat all the hay and forget the entire episode for another week.

There is an up-side to the difficulties you've been having with your breeding. You now know there can be difficulties, you are learning coping strategies, and the few litters you have had can become a good foundation. Breeding towards a line that does well in YOUR situation is key. Just because some other breeder in some other place does well with a certain line does not mean they will do well for you. BUT, when you save the kits that do the best for you in your conditions, and breed them, you will eventually end up with a line that is successful for you

As to when to breed, for me, I find that the first warm days of spring, usually in the beginning of March here, even the recalcitrant does have an urge to breed. I generally breed does back on the 3rd day after losing their litter, but since you have no available foster doe at this time, it might make a good case for waiting. I would have a tough time deciding which way to go, too.

Thank you for your insights, Judymac!
Kits were well formed, maybe a little small but that is subjective. For no good reason, I had left the nest box in her cage yesterday and this morning she had built a beautiful nest, big bowl with a moderate of amount of pulled fur. Knowing her instincts are there, I will probably give her another chance in my next round of breeding. Will add nest box early! The other three pregnant does are all handling the added nest boxes differently today so it will an interesting study the rest of the week.

Your comment about the "upside" of my difficulties is so true. I was like many others getting into raising rabbits, read ALL the books, watched ALL the videos, etc. and thought I was ready. Ha!! Brought home my first five Tamuks and found I had 5 rabbits that had likely never been handled except for breeding, all with severe ear mite infections and nails that had probably not ever been trimmed (were nearly an inch long in the case of my new buck). Got a handle on everything but the successful breeding part. When I buy future stock, I will be more capable of evaluating the quality and health of the rabbits I am looking at due to this experience, so I figure I am slowly making progress in the right direction.