Care Routine for healthy meat rabbits?

[Comet007]

It is interesting… part of living an organic lifestyle is all about the preventatives! Creating optimal health is the first order, and what we eat plays a big part of it. The preventatives are cheaper than medical care after, and way cheaper than losing a bunch of rabbits. Done in bits and pieces without working at finding good lower cost sources for most food items - eating organic would be very expensive. Done the way we do it, it is reasonable in cost and has proven it's worth to me with the positive impact it had on my health. I almost look at it as a hobby - sourcing and prepping food - and when I look at it that way it's an almost free hobby. Well, that was true before we just invested a ton in getting the rabbits!

If I had enough rabbits that I was going through 2 1/2 bags of feed a week, you can bet it would be because I have a way to make them pay for themselves! That's one reason I want to stay small.

 

[michaels4gardens]

for me organic is cheeper--- but-- more work, -- because I grow my own.
I almost never have a sick rabbit when feeding root vegetables , greens, and weeds, with a little hay, if light on greens-- and when I have a rabbit go off feed I toss in a handful of sagebrush, -- so far -- it has never failed.

 

[skysthelimit]

Besides the plague this summer, that could not have been prevented with anything, I only had one or two sick buns a year, does that got some kind of pregnancy toxemia, and two buns that got sick after weaning. Generally I cull anything that showed any signs of weakness, culled it and never kept anything from that line to breed from. That's the most I do with preventatives. I don't have any replacement does from does that have died from pregnancy toxemia. Even the bunny plague this year did not wipe out my entire herd, and I'm left with only the strongest rabbits.

When I was working, I left the house at 6:45 am and got back between 5-5:30, sometimes later. The buns have to be no fuss, there isn't much time for anything else.

 

[Comet007]

I thought I would post this response - primarily for lurkers and/or future readers out there who might be considering different options on raising rabbits. I think that the impression from the negative response to preventatives on here, some might be led to believe that using them (as well as other remedies) is expensive and time consuming, so want to put out there the reality of the cost/time involved.

I could say that I disagree with anyone owning rabbits without having a basic "first aid" kit set up ready to go - but I won't, because to each his/her own, and you might own rabbits for years not needing much at all. For those who do have a basic first aid setup, and use things like Vet-RX or antibiotics or other modern medical items, from what I've seen it's actually more expensive than what I'm using, though mine does require more time for research and acquiring the supplies initially. I'm sure that when you're talking larger scale, there's something to be said for breeding/culling for the fittest rabbits, it's certainly one way to go [and will still be part of my plan]. For some, though, one of the reasons that we want to raise our own food is to tip the scales a bit the other way. I see nothing wrong with spending a few extra minutes a day (or more when I want) with the buns, and if nothing else, the routine herbs they will be getting are the equivalent of giving my kids vegetables for a snack, when they think I'm giving them candy (so far my trio love their herbs, and they had never had any before).

Now that I've bought all the herbs and calculated the actual costs, here are the bulk of them:

-The weekly cost for the echinacea and OACV is coming in at 36 cents per week per rabbit - the first water bottle we gave, we did not add the OACV. The second water bottle I have already noticed that they are drinking quite a bit more water, so there's something to be said for that! [The echinacea will only be given to the adult rabbits, and the kits will only be getting it from 4-8/10 weeks before they are processed.]
-The tummy tonic is coming in at 10 cents per week per rabbit.
-The ear treatment that I will do monthly ended up coming in at 2 cents per month per rabbit because I'm using org. olive oil that I buy in bulk instead of mineral oil as I originally planned.
-The kindling tonic will run $3.08 per litter, and so will be spread out among however many kits are processed/sold. [Even at just 6 surviving kits per litter, netting 2.5 pounds of meat per rabbit, that only adds 20.5 cents per pound. If I end up with 9 rabbits per litter, the cost goes down to 13.7 cents per pound.] All of the ingredients are geared toward birthing recovery and milk production, which should lead to good milk supplies.
-Twice annual worm prevention of grapefruit seed oil and raw pumpkin seeds will cost $1.22 per rabbit - and I will likely reserve this for breeding stock and rabbits that I am growing out to replace breeding stock, or to use if a problem occurs. [If I only get 4 litters per year, with six surviving kits @ 2.5 pounds of meat, that adds 4 cents per pound of meat]
-Other things I have on hand - for a rabbit who is stressed, in pain, get's diarrhea, or other things - the cost is about 5-6 cents per dried 1/2 T serving for the treatment.

I've been giving the buns their herbs and fresh apple branches during my morning visit - I could do it in 2 minutes flat if I didn't want to spend time with them. Frankly, it takes me two minutes to WALK down to their bunny barn and back, so I might as well make it worth my time and stay for a little visit. We fill the hay and pellets at night - that might take 5 minutes if I'm moving slow.

I work from home, and in my case, I wouldn't have chosen to have rabbits if I only had minimal time for them or didn't have the resources to care for them in a manner that I am comfortable with. I love that when I have a good day, I can spend more time with them, and on bad days I can just get the chores done quickly. On a really bad day, I can skip the morning routine entirely and they will still be fine, since they have 64 oz water bottles [2 on cages for a doe with a litter] and 11.5" hay feeders that we stuff very full, and we only give hay & pellets in the evening.

Obviously my way is not for everybody, but for those who don't think it has value - I don't know how anyone can say with 100% certainty that there's no value in it. Without doing a controlled study, even with a history of "healthy enough" rabbits, you don't know if the litters might have been bigger, does might have retained even better condition or bounced back faster or had even better milk supply, kits might have been able to fight off ailments that they were culled for, and possibly even grown just a little faster. If you're trying to do this larger scale on a commercial level, then ok, it's cheaper and you get good results without it. But I don't think that means that anyone knows for sure that it couldn't have improved things even a little for a relatively low cost.

If I were to raise rabbits on a larger commercial scale - my customer base would be looking for something entirely different than a non-organic, more hands off operation. My market would be people who love that they are given organic feed and given herbal treats, and being loved on as they were raised, etc. I've had quite a few conversations with people in the past month who start off horrified that we are going to eat the cute little bunnies, but end up really liking the sound of it. I've already discussed price with a some clients who asked if they could buy some rabbit meat if we have extra - for now I have estimated $10-11 per pound dressed weight, telling them I won't know for sure until I've raised a litter. To these people, they think that sounds pretty good. I think that at that price, I should still be making a reasonable profit that will offset our food costs. (I do know that I can't sell by the pound, but obviously when I price rabbits for sale it will be based on cost to raise them, my estimate of how much meat they will get, and knowing that non-organic rabbit meat around here is about $8/pound - and that's if you can find it in a store.)

If I had come on here and said that I was going to be growing the herbs mentioned and mixing some in with hay, and others to have on hand to use judiciously as needed, I don't think anyone would be so opposed to that. Certainly when someone comes on here and posts that they have a sick bun, I've read responses where people actually suggest some natural remedies. Dried organic herbs are CHEAP and not having them on hand ahead of time would make them expensive. We live 45+ minutes each way from where we could even buy anything, which would then make them very costly - even aside from the old adage "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". With everything else that we will be doing this year, I know right up front that I will not be spending our garden space or my time resources on growing and preserving herbs. This year is about starting the rabbits and starting the vegetable gardening (for us to eat, not the rabbits!)- as well as preserving all the vegetables and fruit, which takes up a LOT of time. Buying the herbs up front is based on knowing this ahead of time and investing in good organic herbs that will stay good for 1 1/2-2 years the way we have them stored. The cost of these herbs is less than the value of the time & space I would have had to spend on them.

None of this is intended to try to sway anyone into changing their way of doing things - I just think that the majority of the information out there leans more toward the minimal approach of even just pellets and water (commercial level) and either minimal hay or sometimes free fed hay. The pellets we can buy do make that possible, and I do understand that.

 

[skysthelimit]

Oh not at all. Never feel what you are doing is more than you need to if you feel the conviction to do it.

But always be ready to take opposing viewpoints when you put yourself out there.

Sometimes people who are starting up feel they need to do a lot of stuff to care for their buns. I remember all the stuff I used to do for the dogs, and still had one bloat and die at 6 years of age. Again with the rabbits. Seems the less I do, the better they are.
Genetics is primary. Sanitation next, and then the other stuff is extra.

Consider too, that for some of us, our turn over rate is VERY high. In my own herd I've been raising, I don't currently have a rabbit over 18 mos old. Oldest was 3. (pet buns was 6). I added a few from my original Rex breeder, a 7 year old Wooly, a 5 year old Rex and 3 year old Rex doe in August. Since I breed first for show, I cannot keep a lot of old stock, I need room for a new show crew every season.
No ones going to grow old here. If they breed well and raise healthy litters, I am not expecting to expand their life past 3 years old.
Certain times a year I have a lot of rabbits. They are clean and well fed, and I'm happy. One good thing about not being solely for meat, is I grow out more kits longer than home meat breeder do, so I have a better idea of what illness lines can have in the long run. If you are culling all your grow outs at 8-12 weeks, how do you really know if what you are doing is working? If I'm culling litters that have had no losses at 4-6 mos, showing and breeding the best, then I have a very good idea if I am doing what it takes to raise healthy rabbits.


Precautions are a good thing.
I bring all my nest boxes in the house, but most people here will tell you that is not necessary. But it helps my peace of mind, so I do it. It's not hard for me to carry them back and forth, up to 3-5 nests at a time. I'd rather do that than be sorry. Some precautions i don't take. It's like my refusal to get a gun, to many here see it as prevention. For me, I find it a bit offensive that everyone is so insistent. I have a totally different belief system, and it's even possible that I could be standing next to someone in church who has a gun in the car. That is not going to change my mind. I'm smart about what I do, nothing has happen so far, and if it does, I'll deal with it then. Carrying a gun will not keep me from getting shot. It may help me protect myself, and then again, it may be the thing that kills me.


Same with preventatives. They may help, they might give a boost to struggling immune systems. Or they may keep the immune system from tackling things on their own, or from building a resistance or mask symptoms, or even create a herd that is dependent on them. They may not stop a drug resistant illness. There is nothing I could have done to prevent a drug resistant strain of cocci from killing my kits this summer, it's happened all over the country. There was ACV in the water, BOSS, flax and probiotics available. I dosed the whole herd with Corrid and scours meds. It stopped when it reached rabbits that were resistant to it. And the adults that did not die, they passed the resistance onto their next litter of kits.

So, I'm back to where I started. I'd rather cull struggling immune systems. I'd rather cull those that have weaning issues. Normally I get 9-12 kits a litter. With no losses. The two with weaning issues initially came from one doe, who got mastitis, after culling her, no sick kits. They grow at the rate they are supposed to, now that I track and breed for faster growing buns.

First aid is for issues that arise. I'm smart about what I do with the rabbits, and I deal with things when they happen. There is a thread for what to have in the first aid kit. I have an herb garden and modern meds stocked away. For me, growing the herbs is cheaper. There are only 3 places in the city to buy dried herbs, and they are not cheap. $4 for half an ounce of Lavender, with who knows what kind of shelf life. Most of the stuff goes unused, and I put it in my pasta sauces instead.

 

[Comet007]

I'm ok with opposing viewpoints, but in a few of my threads [this one and the one about organic feed], the bulk of the feedback has been - don't do that, it's not necessary, it's bad for them, you're being ripped off, etc. At some point, once it's been said already multiple times, it's just not that constructive anymore. It also isn't leaving much that's useful for others who find these threads later, who like myself, want to do and give our best to the livestock we raise - even if that means doing things that others think are unnecessary. I think that I would have met with less resistance if I was going to use small cages and only give pellets and water, not handle the "meat", breed really early, breed-back fast, and cull for every little thing.

I've been reading this forum and many other websites exhaustively for the past month, soaking up all the viewpoints and formulating my own. One thing that I find interesting, is that I've read past posts from the people who've responded in certain ways - and in other threads the response has been a bit different. People have actually recommended or supported things that in these threads they are saying, no, don't do that, it's not necessary or is bad for them.

How will I know if what I'm doing is working? That would be if I am able to meet my goals for my rabbitry. For the breeding stock, it will be in how well they retain/regain conditioning and the litters they produce, and their temperament. I can tell you already that our buck gets a little chummier every day because he gets a little herbal treat every morning. We will be holding back future breeding stock from our litters, so we will have the opportunity to see how they do - I've already told DH that if our two girls don't warm up and start being friendly by the time they raise their first couple litters, I will be holding back some breeding stock sooner than planned and having some lovely rabbit chili, or maybe some nice pulled BBQ. Unless, of course, they make up for their lack of friendliness by producing & caring for good litters! Although… maybe even then, since I can hold back one of their daughter's who would be handled from day one and potentially be friendlier and still produce and care for good litters.

We've pretty much concluded that we will be adding 3-4 hold back cages above the doe cages, and we have a third 30x36 cage that has baby saver wire, so we will have what we need even if we decide to hold back a doe but not cull [eat] the mom until we can evaluate the new doe.

Raising rabbits for show isn't part of my plan - I don't have the time or energy to participate in shows. So my evaluations will be on their suitability for breeding meat stock, and I will be holding back for the best potential meat type and for temperament in my breeding stock. I don't plan to sell rabbits as pets, and even selling breeding trios is pretty low on my list, only because I will feel responsible for the well-being of any rabbits that leave our property. I'd rather all the rabbits be eaten than take a chance that they might be mis-treated or later abandoned altogether. Which is not to say that I think it's wrong to sell pets - just that it's not for me. I am still considering the pros and cons of selling breeding stock, but if I do decide to do that, I will be vetting as carefully as I can before selling any.

Just as with raising children in this world - all the care and prevention that we do is not a guarantee of anything. But I do think, for me, I will know that I've done my level best to set them up for success, and what they do with it is largely out of my hands. If giving them some herbs is setting them up for weak immune systems, then I do wonder why good rabbit pellets have herbs in them - as do some of the fattening agents and diet additions that people use to get a doe "in the mood". Rabbits naturally eat a variety of grasses and herbs in the wild, so it would seem that they instinctively include things in their diets that are of benefit to their system.

My original question stands - it wasn't "am I doing too much for my rabbits", it was and still is: "am I missing anything critical?". It seems the answer to that would be no, but my guess is that there are things that will crop up that I'm not prepared for and will have to adjust as I go along. Just like we've gone from 3 cages to 5, and now planning to have 8-9, and originally we were planning to wait until 9 months for the first breeding, to now watching them starting at 4-5 months, and going from a 42 day breed-back plan to a 28 day breed-back. All based on what I've learned as I've done my research. Doing less of something that's cheap and easy to do isn't really the direction that I am heading.

 

[BlueMoods]

No, you have more lined up than a lot of us have or had when we started. I took the old farmer approach, rely on what I know, experience with other critters, get the rabbits and, observe them to learn more, toss in some trial and error and a lot of reading and get it working for us.

I don't see an issue with giving the herbs to adults but, where I would not give them is kits. I'd be concerned that the herbs may provide some artificial immunity that the kit would otherwise develop naturally and, if the herbs were ever unavailable, the rabbit would then fall ill since it never developed the proper immunity because it didn't have to do so to survive as a kit.

Same with raising kids, over sanitize their world and they end up getting sick more often due to lack of resistance to some very common things. For me clean is good enough most of the time, too much sterilizing and sanitizing just causes more trouble than it prevents. Same for my animals, they have to be able to handle the natural environment here mostly on their own, without loads of immune support. I don't want a bunch of critters that will take ill just because I can't get a certain few herbs or supplements so, I don't give them to start with. If the animal can't make it to adulthood, I don't want it in my herd anyway.

Now support for an older critter that has done well here, and just need a little retirement help to get a few more happy years, well that I will give them, they earned it.

 

[Comet007]

I'm with you on the over-sanitizing things - it was something I never tried to do raising kids. Even in my nail salon, I don't use hand sanitizer (actually not in my house period), and I avoid all antibiotics unless I KNOW they are necessary.

I will be giving the kits smaller amounts of the echinacea, as well as the OACV. They will be getting the OACV in the water supply from the first time they can drink from it - the echinacea is something that I likely won't introduce until they are about 4 weeks old. They will also be getting a bit of ginger root as they are transitioning to pellets, as it can be useful in fending of weaning enteritis - at least I think that's what it's called.

I understand the logic you're using - but by the same logic, then I shouldn't give them the organic pellets - which contain several herbs that also support their system. This is in their pellets:

diatomaceous earth, Redmond conditioner (clay), Redmond salt, organic kelp meal, Zeolite, limestone, hydrolyzed yeast & yeast extract, mineral & vitamin premix, organic garlic, organic thyme, organic anise oil, organic cinnamon, organic anise seed, organic rosemary oil, dried aspergillus niger fermentation product

I can't foresee a time when I wouldn't have their regular herbs or feed on hand - it's far too easy to obtain and I am a highly organized individual. If I were to sell rabbits to someone down the road - they would have to choose whether to continue as I've begun, but at that point the herbs are the least of it, because the rabbits will also be getting the organic pellets and at least transitional hay. If someone wanted to change their diets they would definitely need to do so slowly, which is true no matter what their diet contains.

 

[Marinea]

My hubby and I also have an organic farm. Very small scale, made as simplified as possible as we are getting older. The livestock we raise and their care has also been made as simple as possible. Simple for ease of care and simple to increase income on sold animals.

I think it's great that you have done so much research and established such a detailed plan for your rabbitry. I applaud your commitment and am sure you will do well with it. I, for one, have already learned some things from what you are planning.

My concern is someone coming along, looking to raise rabbits organically, reading this thread, or the one on feed, and deciding against it because they believe there is too much involved in it. There are many ways to raise rabbits, and some folks here have been doing it for years and years, and they try to pass along what they have learned to save people just starting with rabbits from making the same mistakes. It might not always get "said" in the best possible way, but it is said, almost always, with the best of intentions.

 

[BlueMoods]

I think you are doing right for you. I don't have easy access to anything buy Nutreena or Small World brand pellets and, I detest the Small World brand so, I feed Nutreena. Herbs here are either what I can grow or, require a 45 min drive one way to get. Only store closer are the feed store, the truck stop and, Wal Mart (it's Arkansas, Wal Mart is everywhere.)

You have all of the things you can plan for covered, and that's good. Of course any critter is a living, thinking being and, will manage to surprise you but, when the major things are covered, that isn't so bad.

 

[skysthelimit]

Please don't feel attacked. I am just trying to explain why I don't see the need, and inquiring why you feel you need. If this was not a computer, you would see my quizzical face, trying to see where you are headed.

I like to play Devils Advocate, to make sure someone has looked at all the angles. :twisted: Pretty much any new person has gotten the same spiel from me, to provoke thought and for me to understand their reasoning. I am truly interested on why people do what they do.
I have found that research is one thing, experience is something totally different. You will have to put your plan into action to see what really works,for you and your buns.

Advice does change, it depends on who I'm talking to, because after being here a while, you get to know every ones style. And you answer according to what you know about them.

For me, this is the one area of my life I can take my wig off and not be obsessive/compulsive, so I just let it flow.
I am a city dweller. I am single, not family orientated, and I make my life as easy as possible. I have to work outside my home (when I'm working), long hours, not the best pay, I get home later in the evening, I hate to cook. I try to have some fun with my dogs and buns, so I show. I do the best to feed them both as well as possible. I have a routine that's pretty good, to require any more, would mean that I could not afford time or money for either group, and they would have to go. So I strike a balance. Some people can do more than me, some people can do less.
Both rabbits and dogs eat better than I do. Once you know this stuff about me, you don't recommend me to find forage or put my buns on pasture. How would I manage that? Or tell me to get half a cow fresh from a farmer. Where would I go, how would I get it home, whose gonna cook and eat that thing? Then things that seem very practical to you aren't too me, and we come to understand each other better

as do some of the fattening agents and diet additions that people use to get a doe "in the mood". Rabbits naturally eat a variety of grasses and herbs in the wild, so it would seem that they instinctively include things in their diets that are of benefit to their system.

I've never found any of that stuff useful either. I head in the direction of genetics there too. I have too many that do breed to mess with ones that don't. I'm thinking that's natures way of telling me- nope that one doesn't need to pass her genes on.

__________ Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:09 pm __________

Doing less of something that's cheap and easy to do isn't really the direction that I am heading.

I wouldn't consider it cheap and easy. Not as expensive as organic, but a good quality pellet. And less fuss if it needs to be. I spend a lot of time in my rabbitry, but doing other things, like examining rabbits. If they go on a table for all to see, they have to be prepared, and certainly not ignored. And I have wool breeds, which require a higher protein diet than the rest, or at least more food. I don't do chemical supplements, but oats, BOSS and the occasional flax cookie made from scratch. Not easy, but manageable for my time and herd size.

__________ Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:10 pm __________

I don't see an issue with giving the herbs to adults but, where I would not give them is kits. I'd be concerned that the herbs may provide some artificial immunity that the kit would otherwise develop naturally and, if the herbs were ever unavailable, the rabbit would then fall ill since it never developed the proper immunity because it didn't have to do so to survive as a kit.

Pretty much my main point. Just be careful.

__________ Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:11 pm __________

My concern is someone coming along, looking to raise rabbits organically, reading this thread, or the one on feed, and deciding against it because they believe there is too much involved in it. There are many ways to raise rabbits, and some folks here have been doing it for years and years, and they try to pass along what they have learned to save people just starting with rabbits from making the same mistakes. It might not always get "said" in the best possible way, but it is said, almost always, with the best of intentions.

For example, --the Angoras. I blow mine out maybe once a month. Another member every few days. If a new person asked how often, and that member said every few days, with a comb for 40 minutes, feed 18% and papaya every other day, then the new person might be scared off Angoras. But I don't mess with the wool unless it's time to shear or a show, I never use a comb, I feed 16% and I only give hay for wool block. My Angora is my avatar. He is handle every day. If that coat was at all neglected, he would not be showable and would probably have died of wool block by now. Totally confusing, but my lines are different. If that person wants lower maintenance Angoras, then they need to find lines like mines, instead of giving up on Angoras totally.

__________ Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:29 pm __________

. I don't have easy access to anything buy Nutreena or Small World brand pellets and, I detest the Small World brand

You know Small World is just Manna Pro, same company, the basic ingredients the same. TSC here went on a MP strike, they don't stock rabbit food cause no one buys it (they told me that), so it was either there brand at 15% and fillers or Walmart Small World at 16%, with actual Alfalfa and ships to my door. I do not feed anything Purina.

 

[Comet007]

My hubby and I also have an organic farm. Very small scale, made as simplified as possible as we are getting older. The livestock we raise and their care has also been made as simple as possible. Simple for ease of care and simple to increase income on sold animals.

I think it's great that you have done so much research and established such a detailed plan for your rabbitry. I applaud your commitment and am sure you will do well with it. I, for one, have already learned some things from what you are planning.

My concern is someone coming along, looking to raise rabbits organically, reading this thread, or the one on feed, and deciding against it because they believe there is too much involved in it. There are many ways to raise rabbits, and some folks here have been doing it for years and years, and they try to pass along what they have learned to save people just starting with rabbits from making the same mistakes. It might not always get "said" in the best possible way, but it is said, almost always, with the best of intentions.

Thanks - I get that about trying to make this look as simple as possible (and inexpensive) for people who come along later looking to get into this. It's actually the only reason that I typed out either of my last two really long posts. The first long post was to itemize the time and cost - because truly the time and cost portion is tiny in comparison with the cost of organic pellets and hay! I think I pretty clearly demonstrated that the cost and time involved are pretty small. It's not like I'm going to be putting antibiotics in their water, just some mild and healthy ingredients that make me feel good that I will be raising meat that I want to put into my mouth.

There are plenty of voices on the internet for those who want to be minimalistic in their approach, and that's great. I've had to work extra hard to find information because there's almost no voice out there for raising organically and holistically - and then it was enlightening and interesting that there's such opposition to it.

Really I think what's been accomplished in this thread and others of a similar vein is that others who want to raise animals organically and use natural medicines, they may remain lurkers and not participate and ask questions rather than meeting opposition at every turn and being told that they are endangering the health of their future herd by breeding rabbits with no immune system because they want to provide a few herbs. Makes me want to call Modesto Mill and tell them to get those darn herbs out of their feed! Um, not really! Seriously, the first few times someone says it, ok, I take your point, you put it out there to be considered. But at some point, the whole "every way of raising rabbits is fine on this forum" attitude needs to kick in for someone who wants to do more in the same way it does for those who want to do less for their rabbits. <br /><br /> __________ Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:11 pm __________ <br /><br />

Doing less of something that's cheap and easy to do isn't really the direction that I am heading.

I wouldn't consider it cheap and easy. Not as expensive as organic, but a good quality pellet. And less fuss if it needs to be...

I like to play Devils Advocate, to make sure someone has looked at all the angles. :twisted: Pretty much any new person has gotten the same spiel from me, to provoke thought and for me to understand their reasoning. I am truly interested on why people do what they do. Research is one thing, experience is something totally different.

There are a lot of natural people on this forum, and it took me quite some time to explain to them why I don't do what they do. I tried a few things, and it made things harder, more expensive or it just didn't feel like me.

Devil's advocate is one thing, and I play it for myself with pretty much everything that I do so that I know I'm taking everything into account - but I'm sorry to say that you just kept coming back and arguing the same point, or trying to expand on it in the hopes that you'll somehow change my mind. Take a step back - it's no different than you having to justify yourself to the natural people, except now it's you that keep trying to convince me to do it your way or justify why I don't want to. ancake: ancake: ancake:

I guess your version of cheap and easy are different than mine - I laid out the actual costs and time involved in my earlier post for others to view and make their own decisions. I never asked anyone to do things my way, or tried to convince them that it was wrong not to - and I do think that I've spent enough of my time to at least try to explain my views. So it's bizarre to me that you're still on here trying to prove your point and convince me that my way is wrong. At this point, when the inevitable happens and I have a rabbit die - you'll probably say that I killed it with kindness. I put the info out here, from what I've found in my research from other large-scale commercial NZW breeder's who use these same methods, and a few more besides that I've opted not to include in my plan.

Hopefully anyone else who is looking for the information like I was will still be able to glean something useful, for me, I'm on to greener pastures. Thanks everyone for your help in figuring out our bunny barn design and cage set-up!

 

[DogCatMom]

Doing less of something that's cheap and easy to do isn't really the direction that I am heading.

I wouldn't consider it cheap and easy. Not as expensive as organic, but a good quality pellet. And less fuss if it needs to be...

I like to play Devils Advocate, to make sure someone has looked at all the angles. :twisted: Pretty much any new person has gotten the same spiel from me, to provoke thought and for me to understand their reasoning. I am truly interested on why people do what they do. Research is one thing, experience is something totally different.

There are a lot of natural people on this forum, and it took me quite some time to explain to them why I don't do what they do. I tried a few things, and it made things harder, more expensive or it just didn't feel like me.

Devil's advocate is one thing, and I play it for myself with pretty much everything that I do so that I know I'm taking everything into account - but I'm sorry to say that you just kept coming back and arguing the same point, or trying to expand on it in the hopes that you'll somehow change my mind. Take a step back - it's no different than you having to justify yourself to the natural people, except now it's you that keep trying to convince me to do it your way or justify why I don't want to. ancake: ancake: ancake:

I guess your version of cheap and easy are different than mine - I laid out the actual costs and time involved in my earlier post for others to view and make their own decisions. I never asked anyone to do things my way, or tried to convince them that it was wrong not to - and I do think that I've spent enough of my time to at least try to explain my views. So it's bizarre to me that you're still on here trying to prove your point and convince me that my way is wrong. At this point, when the inevitable happens and I have a rabbit die - you'll probably say that I killed it with kindness. I put the info out here, from what I've found in my research from other large-scale commercial NZW breeder's who use these same methods, and a few more besides that I've opted not to include in my plan.

Hopefully anyone else who is looking for the information like I was will still be able to glean something useful, for me, I'm on to greener pastures. Thanks everyone for your help in figuring out our bunny barn design and cage set-up!

You also have an entire un-spec'd list of "sunk costs" that many participants on this thread haven't considered, because they were discussed elsewhere on the forum. These costs are being or will be (one hopes! ) minimized by initiating the program of rabbit-raising, veggie gardening, etc., that you propose. Those costs are the doctor bills and the personal physical pain and lost time you yourself incur when bodily inflammation levels rise. You have discovered, from applying the scientific method to your own life, that when you eat all-organic foods, your inflammation levels decrease and so do your pain levels.

Now that you've reached a point in your life where it's possible to raise meat, in addition to the fish and other aquatic creatures your DH brings home, you're concerned and want to carry out your program in an all-organic, "safe for the buns *and* safe for us" way. From the ground up. It isn't easy, and if I were ever to decide that I like eating rabbit (DH and I tried it once, maybe in November? after I had read this forum for a while; neither of us had a culinary epiphany) and wanted to try and raise them, your program would be a good place for me to start.

I might, in such a scenario, double-check the herbs in the pellets vs. fresh herbs, but that's about it.

I've had to be an organic gardener since college (back in the years when dinosaurs walked the earth, before the Internet, even before cell phones) because of migraines and chemical sensitivities, so I've been answering questions about "why organic?" for...well, for a long time. I just did a stint of five years as a moderator on a gardening forum promulgating mostly organic ways, IPM (integrated pest management, aka least-toxic methods) if it was absolutely required. So I understand some of what you're going through.

FWIW, I think "ya done good."

 

[michaels4gardens]

I have been raising rabbits for almost 50 years, -- I still find these posts interesting.
I grow almost all my own food, and the rabbits food as well, -- but have raised rabbits commercially [over 100 does] and fed pellets.-- I see the down side to both, -- I say-- "go as the spirit moves"-- every situation , every person, and line of rabbits ,are different.
--- I have a learned distrust for commercial pellet rations, and the companys who make them. I have had , and seen a lot of mystery diseases, deaths, and aborted litters, caused by feeding pellets-- it turned out the only thing the "sick" rabbitry's had in common was that they all bought the same brand of pellet made at the same plant. When tested, the pellets contained moldy, or tainted ingredients, -- but-- once that moldy grain / hay is added to a pelleted ration no one can tell it was bad until the animals get sick, -- or it is tested, -- From a feed company's point of view-- they saved/ made a lot of money by selling crapy feed ingredients at top dollar. [Jack Bucke, @ Bucke's feed and grain , Orland Ca. --cost me thousands, by substituting moldy milo for the field corn I ordered, for my farm mix,- once it was ground and mixed, I could not tell the difference, -until I had it tested after a lot of sick animals showed up] - so just be careful--
--- just my 2 cents--