Calling all color gurus for STS, American Chinchilla, Silver, Silver Fox, Sable, Sable Chinchilla, and anyone familiar with both Es & si genes.

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Dimplz

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How do I tell the difference between a heavily silvered rabbit and an STS?

What would a heavily silvered sable based STS look like?

Everything I have studied says the silvering gene causes both solid white hairs as well as white ticking. The steel gene causes the base color to be blown up the shaft to the ticking, and usually wipes out agouti trim. I think I saw that it also causes silver ticking? Correct me anytime I get it wrong.

How does the steel gene present on a growing kit versus how the silvering gene(s) present on a growing kit? What changes occur on self vs agouti?

What would the si2or si3 silvering gene do to an American Chinchilla coat that displays wideband? Or a Sable Agouti? Or an STS?

I have three meat mutt genotypes that I have spent 2 years mapping, trying to understand the silvery mutt melting pot.

When I post pictures of them I get varied responses. While two of my three rabbits fit the genotypes described, they seem more silvery than any others I have seen. None of the descriptions list what seems to be heavy silvering.

I would like to see examples from other people who may have pictures of adults, as well as kits who are in the various stages of expressing the steel gene, and pictures of adults as well as kits who are in the changes of expressing the silvering genes.

I am interested in seeing these expressions on Agouti patterned coats, and self patterned coats. If you have any American Chinchillas, Sable Chinchillas, Sables, or Seals who express ticking from the steel gene(Es) or silvering from the silver gene (si) let me see them.

What about American Chinchillas with wideband? You have pictures? I would like to see them as well please.

I need to see examples from others please. And . . . .GO!
 
These kits are off a white doe crossed with black buck who had spots of gold tipping on him. When I would breed this doe to a fawn English lop I would get similar kits but more would have delayed ticking rather than the early ticking of this litter. One thing I learned was that the more "pointed" they look (as in the darker the shading was around the nose) the slower the ticking would come in. Lighter nose... the ticking would be within four weeks, darker nose... ticking would start week six or seven in the front leg armpits and then spreading down toward the back legs and then up over the shoulders. I didn't keep any longer than 10 weeks to see if it would spread over the whole body.

NOTE the first pic says agouti female but I recall being confused with that kit. It was culled early since it was as small weak kit.
 

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These kits are off a white doe crossed with black buck who had spots of gold tipping on him. When I would breed this doe to a fawn English lop I would get similar kits but more would have delayed ticking rather than the early ticking of this litter. One thing I learned was that the more "pointed" they look (as in the darker the shading was around the nose) the slower the ticking would come in. Lighter nose... the ticking would be within four weeks, darker nose... ticking would start week six or seven in the front leg armpits and then spreading down toward the back legs and then up over the shoulders. I didn't keep any longer than 10 weeks to see if it would spread over the whole body.

NOTE the first pic says agouti female but I recall being confused with that kit. It was culled early since it was as small weak kit.
Thank you. Would you happen to have any experience with the silvering gene?
 
I have bred Si3 gene to Es. The Steel /Es will show pretty soon on a baby rabbit but the Si3gene do not express until later in development. The silvering from the Si3 starts out in patches and spread as the animal grow. The pictures attached show Si3( from one parent) expressed on a self black and a couple of Steel from baby to 6 months. It is easiest to see how the Silvering Si develop on the black. On the Steel there is already ticking from the start but you can clearly see how the fur is getting lighter as they grow.
 

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I am at the moment breeding in the Si3 in my herd. To get good result I need to NOT keep Steel genetic. It messes things up, but it is interesting to see how this genetics combination express. I got another 4 Steel baby's from what I thought was a black self. (She is Ese)
Gorgeous kits, but I cannot use them further. This is from 10 days and 3 weeks, very clearly showing that they are Steel. The Si3 has not yet started to show. I can post new pictures as they silver more. It will be interesting to see if these will silver as much as the last litter
 

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THANK YOU!

I have two rabbits that express silvering, but only one expresses the steel gene as well. Recently I bred a heavily silvered Sable Chinchilla to a REW. She had complications, but the two kits who survived are solid sepia colored rabbits. No agouti, no tan, all self. They were twins until about 2 weeks ago. One started getting the heavy silvering, and it spreads more and more each day. Now the sepia color has darkened under the silvering, and she almost looks black under the sulvering.

I am convinced that these two genotypes can look similarish, and believe many breeders are mistaking the silver gene for the steel gene. I know I have misidentified them in my ignorance too.

A_B_cchl_D_EsE = STS

aaB_cchl_D_E_ si3 = Heavily silvered sable.

Phenotypically speaking, they both have a solid fur shaft up the to silver ticking and neither show agouti markings, or agouti trim.
 
Thats the problem with color names. Steel rabbits are NOT silver/gold tipped!
The light color is the narrow middle band on the hair shaft, not the tip.
And silvered rabbits are not tipped either. They have entirely white hairs. Its like white hairs in older humans, the hair follicles have no melanocytes left to color them.
Pull some hairs out and put them one a solid colored paper to investigate.
 
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I know that the silvering gene, not the steel gene, can cause both ticking and solid hair shafts. I know the steel gene, not the silvering gene, causes the base color to be blown up the shaft to the guard hairs, leaving only the ticking and guard hairs.

I know this because I raise both silvers and steels. I even have a rabbit who is both. I also know this because it says so in several genetic books, and confirmed by the ARBA SOP. Silver Foxes with just ticking and Silver Foxes with full white hair shafts are both acceptable by ARBA standards.

I was asking this question because I was confused about the differences. Until I spoke to an ARBA judge and he showed me. I guess I should end this thread since I was able to get the information I was seeking outside of RabbitTalk.
 
I know that the silvering gene, not the steel gene, can cause both ticking and solid hair shafts. I know the steel gene, not the silvering gene, causes the base color to be blown up the shaft to the guard hairs, leaving only the ticking and guard hairs.

I know this because I raise both silvers and steels. I even have a rabbit who is both. I also know this because it says so in several genetic books, and confirmed by the ARBA SOP. Silver Foxes with just ticking and Silver Foxes with full white hair shafts are both acceptable by ARBA standards.

I was asking this question because I was confused about the differences. Until I spoke to an ARBA judge and he showed me. I guess I should end this thread since I was able to get the information I was seeking outside of RabbitTalk.
Leave the thread as it may help others. I breed silvers but had to deal with steel and is getting it out of my lines. It was hard finding information in the beginning.
 
Thats the problem with color names. Steel rabbits are NOT silver/gold tipped!
The light color is the narrow middle band on the hair shaft, not the tip.
Steel rabbits do have gold- (or silver-) tipped hairs, known as ticking, in some breeds quite extensively. One example: the ARBA Netherland Dwarf Standard of Perfection (SOP) calls for steel to have a black surface color "with an even light brown ticking over the head, ears, chest, top and sides of the body, legs, and feet."

And silvered rabbits are not tipped either. They have entirely white hairs. Its like white hairs in older humans, the hair follicles have no melanocytes left to color them.
Pull some hairs out and put them one a solid colored paper to investigate.
Actually silvered rabbits have both white hairs and white-tipped hairs.

The Silver Fox SOP describes silvering as "white or white tipped hairs."

From what I have seen, the disruption of action in the melanin-producing follicles is sequential and progressive, and often not entirely complete, at least in si3si3 Champagne D'Argents. The Champagne SOP is silent on white hairs but says that fur is "to be evenly interspersed with longer jet black hairs" and "undercolor is to be dark slate blue, carried as deep down the shaft as possible." My Champagnes have white hairs, black hairs, and white-tipped black hairs.

Here is a Champagne D'Argent doe (in molt), and a close-up of her fur, which includes both white and white-tipped hairs:Realta 4-30-23.JPGRealta's fur.JPG

Leave the thread as it may help others. I breed silvers but had to deal with steel and is getting it out of my lines. It was hard finding information in the beginning.
I agree, these threads are very helpful since genes don't read genetics books. ;) What plays out in real life isn't always what you'd expect from studying books or the internet. For example, many sources call silvering genes recessive. NOT! Here is Hot Cross Bun, a junior buck which came from a purebred Champagne sire and a purebred black Satin dam. This photo was taken at 12 weeks; he has since continued to silver to the point that at 4 months old now, he just won 1st in his class of Champagne junior bucks:
Hot Cross Bun 6-27-23.JPG
 
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In europe genecodes silver is a dominant gene.
Actually silvered rabbits have both white hairs and white-tipped hairs.
have you looked at single hairs or by blowing into the fur only?
Standard descriptions often are not in sync with realities or genetic possibilities.
If white hairs are very thin they dont look white, because the dark of the other hairs shine through.
This can only seen in single hairs on an even background (white paper f.e.)
 
I agree, these threads are very helpful since genes don't read genetics books. ;) What plays out in real life isn't always what you'd expect from studying books or the internet. For example, many sources call silvering genes recessive. NOT! Here is Hot Cross Bun, a junior buck which came from a purebred Champagne sire and a purebred black Satin dam. This photo was taken at 12 weeks; he has since continued to silver to the point that at 4 months old now, he just won 1st in his class of Champagne junior bucks:
View attachment 36463
I do not show rabbits so this is a curiosity question - How can you show a rabbit that is half Champagne and half Satin as a Champagne?
I am aware that one can get back to "full" breed in several generations. I don't even know enough to know if I am asking the question correctly.
He sure is a beautiful rabbit.
 
I do not show rabbits so this is a curiosity question - How can you show a rabbit that is half Champagne and half Satin as a Champagne?
I am aware that one can get back to "full" breed in several generations. I don't even know enough to know if I am asking the question correctly.
He sure is a beautiful rabbit.
Great question!

In the US, rabbit judges evaluate rabbits according to their conformity to a description of what the perfect example of that breed would be, a description known as the Standard of Perfection (SOP). There are no pedigrees or other papers required to show; rabbits need to fulfill the minimum requirements of the breed standard and have a permanent ear tattoo, and that's it. It is generally assumed that the animals shown are purebred, which tends to be the case because more often than not, purebreds have been heavily selected to reflect their particular standard, but it is not a requirement.

In a nutshell, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, the judge accepts it as a duck. :LOL:

Sometimes, some of us crossbreed to correct deficiencies in one or both breeds. In this case, I am crossbreeding to add the muscle tone, depth and good deep undercolor of my Satins to my Champagnes. I did not expect to get show-quality animals in the first generation, but as it turns out the cross was a big success and both of my juniors won their classes last weekend. One of the judges last weekend - there were three shows - did in fact ask me about crossbreeding, since the silvering was lighter on those two animals than on the other juniors. (He commented that it was an interesting project that obviously had potential.)

I will not represent these animals as purebreds - their pedigrees are clear - and their progeny will not be able to be registered until three generations out. In the future I will probably have to deal with problems such as satinized Champagnes, but in the long run I consider this an effort to improve the breed. While some people are very emphatic about keeping lines "pure," I consider that somewhat artificial since pretty much all breeds started out as crossbreeds, with other breeds or unknown ancestors contributing to their development. I believe that work to improve a breed does sometimes mean outcrossing, since you can't set a characteristic that does not exist in the breed (or the genetic lines you have access to). In Alaska that is the case for a lot of breeds, as it is prohibitively expensive to bring up new rabbits. Not only that, but I really enjoy the challenge of mixing and matching genetics. :)

The ARBA publishes a new SOP every five years, to update the changes the National Clubs have accepted to their breed standards. Many of these changes are the results of crossbreeding, to put a new feature into an old breed (an example is the effort to get the champagne variety accepted in Netherland Dwarfs).
 
Great question!

In the US, rabbit judges evaluate rabbits according to their conformity to a description of what the perfect example of that breed would be, a description known as the Standard of Perfection (SOP). There are no pedigrees or other papers required to show; rabbits need to fulfill the minimum requirements of the breed standard and have a permanent ear tattoo, and that's it. It is generally assumed that the animals shown are purebred, which tends to be the case because more often than not, purebreds have been heavily selected to reflect their particular standard, but it is not a requirement.

In a nutshell, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, the judge accepts it as a duck. :LOL:

Sometimes, some of us crossbreed to correct deficiencies in one or both breeds. In this case, I am crossbreeding to add the muscle tone, depth and good deep undercolor of my Satins to my Champagnes. I did not expect to get show-quality animals in the first generation, but as it turns out the cross was a big success and both of my juniors won their classes last weekend. One of the judges last weekend - there were three shows - did in fact ask me about crossbreeding, since the silvering was lighter on those two animals than on the other juniors. (He commented that it was an interesting project that obviously had potential.)

I will not represent these animals as purebreds - their pedigrees are clear - and their progeny will not be able to be registered until three generations out. In the future I will probably have to deal with problems such as satinized Champagnes, but in the long run I consider this an effort to improve the breed. While some people are very emphatic about keeping lines "pure," I consider that somewhat artificial since pretty much all breeds started out as crossbreeds, with other breeds or unknown ancestors contributing to their development. I believe that work to improve a breed does sometimes mean outcrossing, since you can't set a characteristic that does not exist in the breed (or the genetic lines you have access to). In Alaska that is the case for a lot of breeds, as it is prohibitively expensive to bring up new rabbits. Not only that, but I really enjoy the challenge of mixing and matching genetics. :)

The ARBA publishes a new SOP every five years, to update the changes the National Clubs have accepted to their breed standards. Many of these changes are the results of crossbreeding, to put a new feature into an old breed (an example is the effort to get the champagne variety accepted in Netherland Dwarfs).
Thank you so much!! I see where I got mixed up. I knew dibs and dabs of this but didn't realize that you didn't have to show the pedigree and that the SOP was THE thing that mattered. I mean, I knew that they were judged against it. So many past conversations make more sense to me now.
 
Update on my Steel/Silvers. This is how my first generation crosses with a European Great Silver look at nearly 8 weeks. This may be of interest in this tread.
I will not breed further on the steels but wil breed the Self and Agouti back to their dad to breed towards the standards of Great Silvers
 

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Update on my Steel/Silvers. This is how my first generation crosses with a European Great Silver look at nearly 8 weeks. This may be of interest in this tread.
I will not breed further on the steels but wil breed the Self and Agouti back to their dad to breed towards the standards of Great Silvers
Those are beautiful bunnies! I was hoping you'd update the photos. It's really interesting to see the meeting of silver and steel (although I admit I do not want to see it in my barn :LOL:).

Looking at those ears, I'm guessing the European Great Silver is a giant breed? I can't find any information about them, so without offending any copyrights, can you give us an overview of the breed? Is it an accepted breed or a working standard?

In the U.S, some folks are working on a commercial-sized silvered breed known as Argent do St Hubert. It is similar to the other Argent breeds (Champagne, Brun and Creme) but has an agouti base coat, while the others have self or orange bases. The smaller Silver breed accepts chestnut agouti, but the St Hubert will accept all four agouti base colors of chestnut, chocolate, opal an lynx.
 
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In Europe, as far as I know, the Great Silvers ( example; "Stor Sølv", Norwegian, I have translated direct) are breeding the different base colour under the same breed name "Great Silver" with additional mentioning of what is beneath the silvering(As far as I understand)
In Norway the Agouti based is called wild grey silver. In Norway ( and I would think also elsewhere in Europe)also blue based, brown and yellow are recognized
Here in UK there is effort to have the Agouti based recognized as a breed of its own under the name Grande St Hubert.
Only the black based, Argente d Champagne is recognized as the big variant ATM in UK.
The size in Europe/UK is from 4 to 5,5 kg, so not giant.
If you translate "Great Silver Rabbit" into German( or any European languages ) you can find web sites dedicated to the breed.
 
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