Not sure what you are saying here. I'm saying that being unconscious before decapitation would eliminate the issue of pain due to decapitation.
Best Method To Dispatch
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Agreed... I went off on one of my tangents, skipping ahead about three pages worth in the discussion.
I "think" I've come up with a modified captive bolt that would guarantee success 100% of the time.
Some might view it as excessive, but even the 2% failure rate is too much.
My luck, I'd fall right in that 2% and be traumatized forever.
I'll draw a pic of my idea & post it.
To be fair, no method is infallible. 90% of animal suffering at harvest is fear or squeamishness on the part of the dispatcher, but the other 10% is human error. So commit, but accept that you are not perfect, you will sometimes get it wrong, and there is a learning curve.
You will make mistakes.
So do the people who harvest meat that is for sale in stores. There is no magic there, they are still humans who sometimes slip.
The only way to never cause an animal suffering for sure is to probably die...I do not say this lightly or facetiously. Even vegans tend to eat grain harvested by machine and, trust me, that is NEVER bloodless. Life feeds on life.
Ultimately I comfort myself for any errors by remembering that the fox, raccoon, or wolf makes no effort at all to prevent suffering in their meals. That we care makes us human. If it gets easy to kill, something is wrong.
There is a learning curve. If you are new to this, be kind to yourself. Recognize that trying is enough, and you will get better. I think this is what is causing some of the friction here, you are seeking a perfect way and it's not a thing--life and death are inherently messy.
I believe it is worth learning how to do this well, but I also respect those who feel that they cannot do it well, either due to temperament or physical capability, or circumstance. It is not that you harvest your own meat that matters to me. It is that you recognize that things must die to feed you and you are willing to own that and take responsibility for it however you are able. Maybe you only buy local, or you avoid animal products, or you develop a relationship with your local rancher...
Anything but say that someone who kills an animal they have carefully raised is a monster, while casually eating a cheeseburger from McDonald's. That brand of hypocrisy is hard to stomach, for me.
This is the type of stunner I use. Bunny Rancher Ballista Bolt Gun
Honestly, it's a more disturbing looking death than cervical dislocation in my opinion. Rabbits kick more violently after a bolt to the brain than a broken neck, it is possible to mess up the placement, and I honestly prefer to do the cervical dislocation method, on any animal that I can physically manage. However a 13lb adult doe is too strong and large for my 5'6" frame to accurately handle.
stefaniec1
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Remember that I have only once butchered an animal, and that was a chicken, so I would like to ask a question. The cone they use to contain the chicken is also said to relax them and help in letting them bleed out. Is this true? (The cone is after my one-time butchering.)
If it does, could a box built to hold a rabbit serve the same purpose? Hinged about ½ way up the with of the box. Cut a hole in one end big enough to hold the rabbit’s neck but small enough that the head cannot pull out. Open the box, put the rabbit in, and take the ears to hold it there while the top is closed. A wire at the other end is a handle to hang the box.
Then make a frame on which to lay the box. Then using a machete with a hole to form a pivot point and an extension on the handle. (My mother was an aircraft mechanic in WW2; she called it her equalizer. It gave her the power to remove some very tightly fastened nuts.) Lay the box on the frame, grab the ears, and quickly lift the equalizer in a semi-circle. The blade swings down, and the head is removed. Then rehang the box to let the rabbit bleed out. What I envision is a small-scale guillotine.
I have not even bought my first rabbit yet. As I said, this is totally new for me. It is just an idea.
If it does, could a box built to hold a rabbit serve the same purpose? Hinged about ½ way up the with of the box. Cut a hole in one end big enough to hold the rabbit’s neck but small enough that the head cannot pull out. Open the box, put the rabbit in, and take the ears to hold it there while the top is closed. A wire at the other end is a handle to hang the box.
Then make a frame on which to lay the box. Then using a machete with a hole to form a pivot point and an extension on the handle. (My mother was an aircraft mechanic in WW2; she called it her equalizer. It gave her the power to remove some very tightly fastened nuts.) Lay the box on the frame, grab the ears, and quickly lift the equalizer in a semi-circle. The blade swings down, and the head is removed. Then rehang the box to let the rabbit bleed out. What I envision is a small-scale guillotine.
I have not even bought my first rabbit yet. As I said, this is totally new for me. It is just an idea.
Death / killing isn't new to me.
Many years ago when I was still willing to hunt, I had several self imposed rules / laws.
1. There had to be a need beyond hunting. Hunting for sport is criminal.
2. If I couldn't get a clean / clear shot, I couldn't shoot.
3. If I took an animal, every possible scrap that could be used, I used.
I'm human, not a wolf, lion, or other animal predator that doesn't care about my victim(s).
As a human, I'm expected to make mistakes. I've used up my lifetime allotment.
The key here is to instantly stop present & future brain activity.
I'm not concerned what others choose, I have no control over that anyway. I'm concerned over pain & suffering that I may cause.
I believe that it's possible to achieve a 100% success rate. Without trial & error.
What the body does AFTER brain activity has ceased isn't an issue. As long as I know, for a fact, that brain activity has stopped, I can continue with the task.
I agree, mistakes happen. My point is... they don't need to.
That could work however, placing the animal in an unnatural position "could" cause undue stress.
Another possible but unproven issue could be... how long after that does brain activity cease?
First and foremost... Don't take my word or opinion(s) as fact. I don't have a clue what the best method(s) is or are. YET.
There are others here with vast knowledge & experience.
I agree that would probably create a lot of stress and that's one thing I try to completely eliminate. I think the bolt gun (or 22 caliber bullet at close range) or cervical dislocation is probably best. Dislocation is something I haven't tried because I am too afraid I wouldn't use enough strength to do it properly.
As to the chicken in the cone thing, now you are back to beheading while conscious again. When I was a child my great aunt raised chickens and would cut the head off with an ax. The headless chicken would run around for what seemed like forever to me then. Hence the term, "running around like a chicken with it's head cut off". That's real. Then, I have seen a woman cut the jugular on a chicken and it calmly bled out and never knew it was dying. Misjudging, and cutting into the windpipe causes major panic because the chicken can't breathe. Of course, it can't breathe without a head either. I don't raise chickens so for me this is just a philosophical discussion.
I've watched videos by joel salatin with polyface farm butchering chickens in an assembly line type of process. They used several cones so they could process lots of chickens at a time. The chickens were not calm and flopped around after being beheaded. The cones are useful for bleeding once the head is removed but I think there has to be a more humane way to dispatch them first.
on this generalized point we must fundamentally disagree. I have not come close to perfection, and I don't expect it of anyone else. While you may be a killing old hand, my comments were directed also to the community at large, and I maintain that new people should not be made afraid to learn and try.
so I would not recommend this upside down position with a rabbit. Rabbits do NOT become calmer in this position but poultry typically do.
I do however have a small shoebox sized "killbox" that I put a rabbit in when using a captive bolt stunner. It is just a box, nothing fancy, but it has to fit the rabbit almost exactly so that they can't turn around, like a cattle loading chute. I made one out of wood, and another is just a plastic storage bin (different sizes for different sized rabbits).
They back into a corner, and then they will sit there pretty nicely, and I pet them on the forehead a few times with my hand, then with the stunner, then pop, lights out. The box keeps my hands free to do the stunning and petting. After, I hang by the hind legs, cut throat, and drain the blood into a bucket. For the hind legs I just have sliding loops of cord on nails in the wall.
It sounds like you could make your system work on the flat almost as easily...once the rabbit is hung I butcher them hanging, again like a cow. If the box is still around them that may not be so convenient.
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We agree 100% on what others do or don't.
I was speaking of my personal weaknesses / desires for perfection.
Someone talked me into adopting a goat named Steve.
We have plenty of room so I agreed. He was delivered almost instantly!
The very next day there was a huge goat sized dent in the side of my truck. I was livid!
Later that afternoon I saw him standing on top of the cab of our other truck! If that wasn't enough, the hood was all dented from him apparently tap dancing on it!
We "had" two identical trucks, now it's easy to tell them apart because of the damage.
The next morning as soon as my dog turned his back Steve tried to ram him!
That's it! Steve was gonna die!
I actually searched the Internet for the proper method to execute a goat.
The consensus was to hold him down & slit his throat.
Even though I was beyond furious, I couldn't even imagine doing that. Steve got a temporary stay of execution.
I put up notices everywhere I could think of... free goat.
Finally after about three weeks I got a response from a Craigslist ad. The guy wanted pics.
After seeing them he asked why I was giving him away. I told him the truth.
He then said Steve was quite valuable because of his breed and wool.
That was my fastest trip to town ever!
The thought of Steve running around naked most of the time seems a suitable punishment.
I hope he makes some nice sweaters.
We have plenty of room so I agreed. He was delivered almost instantly!
The very next day there was a huge goat sized dent in the side of my truck. I was livid!
Later that afternoon I saw him standing on top of the cab of our other truck! If that wasn't enough, the hood was all dented from him apparently tap dancing on it!
We "had" two identical trucks, now it's easy to tell them apart because of the damage.
The next morning as soon as my dog turned his back Steve tried to ram him!
That's it! Steve was gonna die!
I actually searched the Internet for the proper method to execute a goat.
The consensus was to hold him down & slit his throat.
Even though I was beyond furious, I couldn't even imagine doing that. Steve got a temporary stay of execution.
I put up notices everywhere I could think of... free goat.
Finally after about three weeks I got a response from a Craigslist ad. The guy wanted pics.
After seeing them he asked why I was giving him away. I told him the truth.
He then said Steve was quite valuable because of his breed and wool.
That was my fastest trip to town ever!
The thought of Steve running around naked most of the time seems a suitable punishment.
I hope he makes some nice sweaters.
Not sure how much time & effort you want to put in this but how about placing the rabbit in the box for a few minutes each day... getting him used to the idea that it's no big deal?
Then when the final day comes, he won't be expecting anything more.
Rabbitdad, stefaniec1's idea of a guillotine would be conscious decapitation. I thought that was something you wanted to avoid?
I personally want to avoid that until I KNOW it's painless.
What others do is not only beyond my control, it's none of my business.
Until the day comes when I really do know it all...
Good luck with that!I personally want to avoid that until I KNOW it's painless.
What others do is not only beyond my control, it's none of my business.
Until the day comes when I really do know it all...
the more you handle the easier it is on them for sure--and the harder it will be on you, in some cases. I have an old doe who is my favorite. I know she is just about done having kits, and I don't have space for a retiree. Letting her go will be very hard.
I don't know what the life expectancy is for rabbits but considering she has served you well throughout her entire life, perhaps a quiet, happy retirement is in order.
Don't shoot the messenger, just a thought.
Today I started handling the youngsters. A few put up a little fight at first but quickly calmed down.
It won't be long before they are demanding attention.
It won't be long before they are demanding attention.
I wish I could. she was a craigslist girl who came without a pedigree, a retired 4H doe. I don't know how old she is, but she looks it. She missed on the last breeding, and she gets 2 more chances before she has to do something else. even if she has a small litter I will let her stay, but she's not a kid-pet. she's a working doe who is good at what she does, so I am not sure if I can find a home for her as a pet. I live on 7220 square feet of land, I can't really afford to have a lot of critters who just eat. A doe likely has a working lifespan of about 4 years tops, she's been with me for 2, and she was a proven breeder when I got her. But she can live until she is 9.
Actually....if she will get along with the buck without fussing, they could be cuddle bunnies. He's a low key dude, with 10 square feet all to himself, and he gets lonely. That might work...worth a try. They have been neighbors and like each other more than she likes the rest of the herd. I'll try it and report the outcome.
