A few questions on making a Harlequin New Zealand?

[GBov]

So I had an idea the other day, how about seeing if I could breed a Harlequin NZ?

My meat mutt pair ALWAYS have at least one beautifully marked harlequin in each litter and some times two but the growout is rather slow and they aren't very big so the idea of a big harlequin rather took possession of my brain

So to start the project I have kept the last two brightest harlequin does and am going to keep the best one from this litter as well.

Which buck would be best to cross with them? In my NZ bucks I have two reds, a blue, a white and a GTS.

I was told that red was teh best to cross with but as they are almost old enough to breed I want to make sure before I go ahead.

And then with the first litter, do I keep the best doe and breed back to the sire or do I keep a buck and breed back to the mother? Or both? Or what?<br /><br />__________ Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:16 am __________<br /><br />Oh yeh, I also have a broken grey rex buck I could use to help improve the fur if that might be needed later on too.

And is it possible to have a grey harlequin? One of the does I have kept back for this project is marked just like the three color harlequins but is grey and white instead of tiger stripes.

 

[Disney]

I dont know what a GTS is but a red would be your best bet
A Red is basically an agouti tort, and tort is the most recessive allele on the E-locus
Tort (ee) is also recessive to Harlequin (ej)
When you cross a tort with harlequin, you can ONLY get Harlequin kits out of them, (unless the Harlequin carries tort then you will get both Harlequin and tort)

On another note.. the tort gene is called non-extension (ee) which is recessive to full-extension (EE) and Harlequin (ejej)
Full extension is basically a solid colored like: blue, black, chestnut, opal, chin, etc..
The reason why you shouldn't use a full-extension is because they dominate the harlequin gene and hide it, so then you get solid colored kits who carry harlequin (Eej)
I would only use a full-extension rabbit IF he already carries harlequin OR tort, then you will get 50% fullextension kits and 50% harlequin

Whites are difficult because they hide any gene they carry, so you can't know what genotype they are unless you already bred them (several) times before.

If you want to do a back cross, it depends which parent contributed to produce the Harlequin kit.
What color are the parents?

__________ Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:41 am __________

The gray/white you mean would be Magpie.. basically a shaded harlequin who carries a chinchilla gene (either chld of chl)
Do you have any shaded rabbit? Like sable, himi, rew that you could use?

 

[bucknercrestfarm]

Cinnamon rabbits crossed with new zealand white are amazing color google it then look at the pics

 

[GBov]

GTS is gold tipped steel.

I know its not a showable NZ color but my buck is such a chunky friendly beast that I have kept him, despite his not being the black he was SUPPOSED to be when we bought him.

Disney, I will read and re-read and re-re-read you post and maybe I will get it into my head in a form I understand. :lol: You ROCK! You really do!

 

[skysthelimit]

Sounds like a project. The Rex won't be useful to you unless it's non extension, because you need two Rex genes to get Rex fur, and when you cross back to get it, you're gonna lose the non extension.

 

[3mina]

A breeder up here is improving the body type on Harlequins using NZs, I'm looking really hard at replacing my Rex's with them since they really make me smile

 

[Disney]

GTS is gold tipped steel.

I know its not a showable NZ color but my buck is such a chunky friendly beast that I have kept him, despite his not being the black he was SUPPOSED to be when we bought him.

Disney, I will read and re-read and re-re-read you post and maybe I will get it into my head in a form I understand. :lol: You ROCK! You really do!

Honestly, steel is a very complicated gene, and i don't know how it interacts with harlequin.. not many breeders know how it really works. Steel is also the most dominant gene there is (even more dominant than chestnut AND full-extension).
It can hide in selfs and pop out randomly, and would give you a hard time trying to get rid of it if you wanted to. (happened to me)

I can chop it up and explain it more detailed if you want me to, because i understand how crazy it all sounds :book:

 

[skysthelimit]

A breeder up here is improving the body type on Harlequins using NZs, I'm looking really hard at replacing my Rex's with them since they really make me smile

They are very striking aren't they? Since I have the gene in my Rex herd, I hope I can get a combination that will express it.

 

[tm_bunnyloft]

I love my Harlequin X NZ bunnies. Some are white and some are magpie. Magpie is incredible.

 

[3mina]

A breeder up here is improving the body type on Harlequins using NZs, I'm looking really hard at replacing my Rex's with them since they really make me smile

They are very striking aren't they? Since I have the gene in my Rex herd, I hope I can get a combination that will express it.

That would be fun but I know I don't have anything even vaguely close in mine and I'm just not loving the Rex like I could.

 

[GBov]

Sounds like a project. The Rex won't be useful to you unless it's non extension, because you need two Rex genes to get Rex fur, and when you cross back to get it, you're gonna lose the non extension.

I only mentioned the rex as I had heard that they will give a thicker fur if crossed with a non rex. Being spoilt for choice with bucks I dont have to use him and I am having doubts as to his fertility at the moment. He has until Christmas to impress me with his fertility and he will be replaced by an offspring asap after that if he does do the job.<br /><br />__________ Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:19 pm __________<br /><br />

I love my Harlequin X NZ bunnies. Some are white and some are magpie. Magpie is incredible.

My Patches got to live due to her increadable friendlyness and her beauty.

 

[skysthelimit]

A Rex with a non Rex makes normal fur. Perhaps his lack of fertility is just from the heat wave?

Bucks get the boot a lot faster around here. I have more bucks than does, so if I'm not happy with them...

 

[GBov]

Honestly, steel is a very complicated gene, and i don't know how it interacts with harlequin.. not many breeders know how it really works. Steel is also the most dominant gene there is (even more dominant than chestnut AND full-extension).
It can hide in selfs and pop out randomly, and would give you a hard time trying to get rid of it if you wanted to. (happened to me)

I can chop it up and explain it more detailed if you want me to, because i understand how crazy it all sounds :book:

I would love you to chop it up and explain it to me. That way I can cut and paste it into my note section and keep studying it.



This is Goof Ball, the gold tipped steel.

But if he is going to add undesirable traits to my project, he can keep making meat for us and I will use this one when he is old enough.

<br /><br />__________ Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:04 pm __________<br /><br />

A Rex with a non Rex makes normal fur. Perhaps his lack of fertility is just from the heat wave?

Bucks get the boot a lot faster around here. I have more bucks than does, so if I'm not happy with them...

The ONLY reason my two standard rex are getting the length of chance that they are is that they are the only standard rex I have found without a 5 hour round trip added on to the price. They are both 5 year old ex pets and are grumpy unfriendly beasts. Come the colder weather, if they manage a litter, I will see if the grumpyness passes down. If it does, they will all go for dinner and I will bite the bullet and buy some new ones, even with the long drive.

Thanks for setting me straight on rex not helping non rex fur.

 

[skysthelimit]

Steel is not my thing. I hear it's a naughty gene, makes up it's own rules. I have a habit of not dealing with any color that does not appear in my herd, so when I get a surprise, I'm back to the books!

That red should set you up for non extension. He looks so cute

Rex tend to be pretty moody rabbits. Does anyway. Bucks are usually lovers. I'd say put em in the pot if need be!.

 

[GBov]

Steel is not my thing. I hear it's a naughty gene, makes up it's own rules. I have a habit of not dealing with any color that does not appear in my herd, so when I get a surprise, I'm back to the books!

That red should set you up for non extension. He looks so cute

Rex tend to be pretty moody rabbits. Does anyway. Bucks are usually lovers. I'd say put em in the pot if need be!.

The doe starts squeeking and grinding at me as soon as I start to pet her and the buck is so eager for his food he starts snapping and biting at anything he can reach at dinner time. But that fur, that FUR!!! I looooooove that fur lol.

And the red is named Rusty and is so in your face friendly that he is a joy to be around.

I dont mind stand offish rabbits and I love our friendly ones but teh grumpy ones dont get many chances. Our one amchin is skittish as anything and her babies are the same but they grow out so fast and are so chunky that she gets to go with Goof Ball most of the time. She is due with Bowler this time though as he hasn't been put off by the heat so far. I am waiting for this one to get old enough...........



He is from a few litters ago and is by Twitchy (amchin) and Goof Ball. I am going to try fostering that litter onto a calm doe and see if they are calmer but if not, that entire line is going. They are just too jumpy for pleasure.

 

[skysthelimit]

If the does are grouchy I usually counter act with a mellow buck. I had a grouchy litter, and I basically hand raised them, as I do all of my litters, in the house, only out for feedings. A pair of grouchy will make an interesting nature vs nurture study. I've never bred two that has strange ways.

 

[GBov]

If the does are grouchy I usually counter act with a mellow buck. I had a grouchy litter, and I basically hand raised them, as I do all of my litters, in the house, only out for feedings. A pair of grouchy will make an interesting nature vs nurture study. I've never bred two that has strange ways.

Should be intresting indeed.

Am going to put the older red buck with the mother of my three harlequins this week as she is ready to go again, and see what happens. She is a white with gold and black and tan patches and splotches and I wish I could remember the name of her color as its MUCH shorter than her discription :lol:

If it wernt thundering right now I would go take some more pictures but hopefully next month there will be popples to take pictures of.

 

[skysthelimit]

Sounds like a tri color.

I got my reds today, so by December, I'm going to tri to find that hidden harlie gene in my herd.

 

[Disney]

Honestly, steel is a very complicated gene, and i don't know how it interacts with harlequin.. not many breeders know how it really works. Steel is also the most dominant gene there is (even more dominant than chestnut AND full-extension).
It can hide in selfs and pop out randomly, and would give you a hard time trying to get rid of it if you wanted to. (happened to me)

I can chop it up and explain it more detailed if you want me to, because i understand how crazy it all sounds :book:

I would love you to chop it up and explain it to me. That way I can cut and paste it into my note section and keep studying it.

I feel like crying.. i had just been typing here for an hour, trying to explain the A/B/C/D/E series and then suddenly my laptop shuts off The power cable had come out too far, my laptop doesn't charge power so the cable needs to stay plugged in.
I was already down to the Extension gene part.. sigh
And i was hoping Mozilla would restore all of the text when i hit "restore previous internet session" but no.

Obviously i'm not going to do it all again so i'll just do the Extension part.. sorry

The E/e gene controls whether the basic color on the rabbit (black, blue, chocolate, or lilac) is extended all of the way to the end of the hair shaft or whether the basic color stops and another finishes the hair shaft (such as the orange color on the back of a black tort). When a rabbit has full extension, it tends to look the same color all over, such as with a blue rabbit. When there is non-extension, such as with a black tort, the rabbit takes on a shaded look since the shorter hairs on the belly, guard hairs, feet and muzzle get only the basic color (they are not long enough to get the other color that finishes off the longer hairs)

So first there is the Steel gene, who is the most dominant in the E-series, but i'm not going further in on this because i still don't exactly understand how it interacts with other genes.

Now focusing on Full Extension, Harlequin and Tort and how they interact with each other.

Full Extension is indicated with the 'E' allele
A solid black rabbit would be either EE, Eej or Ee, it only needs one E allele to express the black color since it's dominant.
EE = doesnt carry any recessive genes so it's homozygous for full extension
Eej = carries Harlequin
Ee = carries tort
A_B_C-D_Ee = chestnut (agouti) carries non extension and can trow orange kits (A_ee)
At_B_C_D_ee = tort otter :twisted:
aaB_C_D_EE = black (self) doesn't carrying tort

Next comes Harlequin who is either ejej or eje, it only shows itself when the full extension gene is absent, E + ej = Eej and therefor solid black would appear and hide the Harlequin gene.
However Harlequin DOES show when combined with the tort gene.. ej + e = eje and comes out as a Harlequin hiding tort.
ejej = shows Harlequin and doesn't carry anything else
eje = Harlequin carrying tort

And last we have the Non Extension gene, also known as Tort.
Tort is powerless against Full Extension and Harlequin (and Steel ofcourse but i don't know what the rabbit would look like)
Tort can ONLY show itself when it is 'ee' without the dominant E and/or ej gene.
aaB_C_D_ee = tort
A_B_C_D_ee = orange
aa_B_chl_D_ee = sable point (basically a washed out tort, the yellow pigment of a tort is taken out and leaves a sable point)

Ignore the broken gene.. from left to right:
tort ee (the E is absent)
black E_ (he is either EE or Ee or possibly Eej, so we know the E is present)
black aaB_C_D_E_ Enen (Enen stand for the broken gene)
tort aaB_C_D_ee Enen

 

[GBov]

First, I am so sorry your post got eaten!

And second, I have now learned that the Charlie Brown teacher noise can be heard with my eye balls. :shock:

Its going to take me many many many readings to, perhaps, start to understand.

Good thing I am determined!

Tomorrow I am going to start on a couple of new cages and see if Big Red adn Honey can make some pretty babies. Right now she is living with her last litter and I dont have another cage to put her in.

Does anyone EVER have enough cages?<br /><br />__________ Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:08 pm __________<br /><br />And last but not least, those are the cutest buns I have ever seen. Heart melters!