5 deaths in the last 3 months (rabbits fed from greengrocer)

[Bike guy]

I had 5 deaths within the last 3 months, all of them was 1-3 months of babies and no adults. (out of total 30 rabbits) They were all dead lying on their one sides and the other babies were mounted on the corpse. (I don't know why) There were no visible cause of death. Also all rabbits look healthy, their appetite and feces look normal.

I used to feed my rabbits from the nature but this winter I was so busy, so I fed my rabbits from the greengrocers of our local street market. There were no problem and no deaths in the first 3 months of the winter. The most common green I gave them was the leaves of cabbage. (I know the danger of gas, but they didn't eat the stems and midribs and I didn't forced them to eat because I know that stems and midribs of the brassica family might cause gas. When they finish eating leaves, I took the midribs of the cabbages out) So there were no deaths. I also gave them fruits, vegs, carrots and other greens such as parsley, celery, dill etc.

The deaths started 3 months ago, at first I blamed broccoli, because it causes much more gas than cabbage. Then I stopped broccoli but it didn't work. This week I lost 2 babies, which is a record, intervals of the death were usually 3 weeks. So I focused on the foods that I gave this week; I gave too many chards this week, and some cabbage. Chard might cause kidney stone, but it is unlikely; it can't make kidney stone within a week and kill them. Also I gave too many apples, carrots and pears this week.

I know I'm focusing too much on the foods, maybe I'm ignoring the possibility of an epidemic disease but they look pretty healthy and intervals of the deaths are too long for an epidemic disease.

In my opinion there are 2 suspects;
1-Gas
2-Insecticides on the fruits and greens

I do not wash neither greens nor fruits, this is why insecticides might be the suspect.
Washing greens are almost impossible for me, wet greens rot within a few days. But I can wash fruits if it will help (and I will).

What do you think, any clues about cause of deaths?

 

[tambayo]

You remove all old greens every day and replace with fresh? Do you leave any overnight when there is frost? Or given the temperatures there can be high that are in longer then 12 hours or so?

 

[Cindy in SD]

I'd go back to feeding them from nature. And assuming it was not the wrong foods that killed them, but rather agricultural poisons, I'd think twice about eating it myself.

 

[Bike guy]

You remove all old greens every day and replace with fresh? Do you leave any overnight when there is frost? Or given the temperatures there can be high that are in longer then 12 hours or so?

I remove all the leftovers and give them fresh greens twice a day. Temperature is always between 60-80 F because they are indoors. No frost or no hot air at all.

 

[Bike guy]

I'd go back to feeding them from nature. And assuming it was not the wrong foods that killed them, but rather agricultural poisons, I'd think twice about eating it myself.

Unfortunately I have to keep on greengrocers from now on, feeding from nature is really fun for me and a great feast for rabbits but I have no time for foraging nowadays.

If the problem is insecticides I can partially solve this. Maybe washing all the greens for 30 rabbits is impossible for me but washing fruits and vegs (which I already begin) is easy task.

 

[Bike guy]

Today I checked the chards that I fed during the last week closely, the fibers of the chard's stems and midribs are very interesting. They were just like hemp fibers, very strong, just like strong rope. I know this is not normal for an average chard but fibers of this specific chard variety look very dangerous for rabbits. I have another suspect now. This week, which I had 2 deaths, chard made about %60 of the greens that I fed them.

 

[Skai]

I don't know about where you are but according to the Environmental Working Group all greens like chard, spinach, lettuce, kale are loaded with pesticide residue. For some reason, iceberg lettuce can be lethal for rabbits.

 

[rabbet]

Greens -- including lettuce -- are typically fertilized heavily in order to produce. It does not matter if the fertility comes from natural or synthetic sources and the nitrate content is not subject to restrictions, meaning the nitrate content of your organic kale may far, far exceed that of a processed salami. Stress conditions like drought, cold, hot make the problem worse. Greens also pull out heavy metals from polluted ground but that's not as likely as nitrate poisoning. Nitrate poisoning can cause digestive problems but can also cause something like suffocation due to methemoglobinemia. Check and see if the mucous membranes are browny-blue.

It's my personal opinion that the reason so many people hate green salads is that they intuitively know what they're eating is toxic!

 

[Scooter1A]

I don't know about where you are but according to the Environmental Working Group all greens like chard, spinach, lettuce, kale are loaded with pesticide residue. For some reason, iceberg lettuce ca

I had 5 deaths within the last 3 months, all of them was 1-3 months of babies and no adults. (out of total 30 rabbits) They were all dead lying on their one sides and the other babies were mounted on the corpse. (I don't know why) There were no visible cause of death. Also all rabbits look healthy, their appetite and feces look normal.

I used to feed my rabbits from the nature but this winter I was so busy, so I fed my rabbits from the greengrocers of our local street market. There were no problem and no deaths in the first 3 months of the winter. The most common green I gave them was the leaves of cabbage. (I know the danger of gas, but they didn't eat the stems and midribs and I didn't forced them to eat because I know that stems and midribs of the brassica family might cause gas. When they finish eating leaves, I took the midribs of the cabbages out) So there were no deaths. I also gave them fruits, vegs, carrots and other greens such as parsley, celery, dill etc.

The deaths started 3 months ago, at first I blamed broccoli, because it causes much more gas than cabbage. Then I stopped broccoli but it didn't work. This week I lost 2 babies, which is a record, intervals of the death were usually 3 weeks. So I focused on the foods that I gave this week; I gave too many chards this week, and some cabbage. Chard might cause kidney stone, but it is unlikely; it can't make kidney stone within a week and kill them. Also I gave too many apples, carrots and pears this week.

I know I'm focusing too much on the foods, maybe I'm ignoring the possibility of an epidemic disease but they look pretty healthy and intervals of the deaths are too long for an epidemic disease.

In my opinion there are 2 suspects;
1-Gas
2-Insecticides on the fruits and greens

I do not wash neither greens nor fruits, this is why insecticides might be the suspect.
Washing greens are almost impossible for me, wet greens rot within a few days. But I can wash fruits if it will help (and I will).

What do you think, any clues about cause of deaths?

Hello, how are you? Did you look at the organs of the ones that died? Do an autopsy.

 

[Preitler]

Is this the whole diet, or are the veggies additionally to hay? Sounds like a rich diet, and with apples carrots and so on also high in sugar, which can lead to problems like the wrong bacteria growing or yeasts.

Pestizides. heavy metals, etc. - all that wouldn't be allowed in human food in significant amounts, it would make us sick too. I doubt this is an issue. Don't know much about nitrates and rabbits, but right, compared to what rabbits evolved for all produce gets a lot of fertilizer.

I also doubt fibers or stems could be an issue.

 

[Scooter1A]

if you can put them on grass hay. what do people with horses do in turkey? there must be grass hay around for them.

 

[Bike guy]

Hello, how are you? Did you look at the organs of the ones that died? Do an autopsy.

Thank you my friend, I'm fine. I would make an autopsy, but I didn't know what to look for. In case any new death, what should I check?

 

[Bike guy]

Is this the whole diet, or are the veggies additionally to hay? Sounds like a rich diet, and with apples carrots and so on also high in sugar, which can lead to problems like the wrong bacteria growing or yeasts.

if you can put them on grass hay. what do people with horses do in turkey? there must be grass hay around for them.

I give them literally zero hay. The closest hay seller is miles away up in the villages and I have no place to store them. So instead of hay, I gave them cabbages, lettuce, parsley etc. Can this greens replace hay?

I didn't have any issues when I used to forage, they looked much more energetic and healthy.

As for the sugary fruits and carrots, total of this foods per rabbit is nothing more than 2 or 3 tablespoon. I mean each rabbits eat a quarter of apple and 1 or 2 finger size carrot.

 

[Scooter1A]

Thank you my friend, I'm fine. I would make an autopsy, but I didn't know what to look for. In case any new death, what should I check?

i'd look at their what i call the poop tube, the liver for spots. other than that I don't know. If it's a digestion problem then I would expect you would see packed poop. im sure others on here know exactly what to look for. poor babies, sorry for your loss. so frustrating. is it possible someone is scaring them when you aren't around? dogs? cats?

 

[Preitler]

I give them literally zero hay. The closest hay seller is miles away up in the villages and I have no place to store them. So instead of hay, I gave them cabbages, lettuce, parsley etc. Can this greens replace hay?

I didn't have any issues when I used to forage, they looked much more energetic and healthy.

As for the sugary fruits and carrots, total of this foods per rabbit is nothing more than 2 or 3 tablespoon. I mean each rabbits eat a quarter of apple and 1 or 2 finger size carrot.

Veggies were created for human consumption. they are quite rich and not much fiber since we can't digest plants as well as herbivores.
Rabbits evolved on a meager diet, grasses, weeds, bark, and so on - they need the fiber for their digestion, a too rich diet can sometimes cause problems. It's not like veggies are bad for them, I too feed apples, pumpkin, cabbage, Topinambur through winter - as addition to hay, in such small amounts apples and carrots should be ok, I think. Better is green, leafy stuff.

Forage is the same thing as hay - just the fresh, better version, but with the same amount of fiber etc., not edible for us but perfect for rabbits. I too feed forage whenever possible, and I make hay of it for winter.

 

[Scooter1A]

How about pellets? If you can't get hay.

 

[eco2pia]

During your necropsy you could also look for a yellowish liver for toxicity, stomach/intestinal bloat, and you could look for spotty or bloody lungs for respiratory illness. Kidneys should also be checked like liver for paleness and spottiness.

You are not stuck with hay or pellets, but you cannot feed people food only. I would suggest you look for neighbors with gardens and yards and take their weeds, fruit tree prunings, grass etc., and also look at parks and less traveled road side or hedgerow areas. Bramble vines (blackberry, raspberry, rose) are especially well loved, even though they are thorny. So are many types of tree bark, though it may not be as nutritious it will provide fiber.

Unfortunately you will have to learn what is poisonous to rabbits. As a general rule if an ornamental is considered resistant to deer it is not going to be good for rabbits either. Another tip is to learn the latin names of the plants in your area and plug them into a search engine with the word "fodder" or the word "toxicity". There have been many animal studies for alternative fodder sources, which can be old but still useful. Like me!

There are MANY MANY natural feeding threads here on rabbit talk also.

 

[rabbet]

Take a look at their mucous membranes to see if they are browny-blue.

Nitrates have a history of killing (human) babies from manure nitrates leaching into well water on the prairies in Canada. They die of a sudden severe anemia.

 

[arachyd]

Brassicas are still gassy even with parts removed. I would immediately stop feeding that particular type of green. After experiencing my rabbits having widely varying reactions to a tiny bit of cauliflower leaf and losing one of my favorite rabbits in the process I decided I would never feed them any kind of brassica again.

 

[hotzcatz]

rabbits eat really low on the food chain. More leaves and twigs than vegetables, fruits are not usually something they should be eating very much. Grasses are good for them or other high roughage low sugar sort of things. Not sure if you can get enough roughage for them at the grocer? Carrot tops are better than carrot roots.