200 Rabbits Seized

[Robin]

I don't think you need to be licensed by USDA unless you sell more than $500 in a year to pet stores, laboratories, or exhibitors (zoos, circus, petting zoo)

Also, the Animal Welfare Act does not apply to animals used for food or fiber.

There may be state or local regulations or licenses we are unaware of though.

 

[tailwagging]

looks like she may have had to have one. she may get out of it if she had her rabbitry before 1991 or that her rabbits were for fiber.

http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stus ... 01_117.htm

 

[akane]

I don't see why everyone is assuming this person is innocent and a good caregiver of her rabbits. Did you read some of the stuff the sheriff said in the article? Not the rescues or alarmist news reporters but the sheriff and vets.

there was a lack of food and water, and the cages were deep in feces

"It was a bad situation," Techmeyer said. "We don't know how many are dead."

Veterinarians were also on hand and described the animals as "aggressively thirsty," reaching desperately for water as it was poured for them.

While yes someone could exaggerate (and the news reporters probably are to an extent) it does sound to me like these rabbits were neglected and left without water which would kill at 84F even if that would normally be an ok temp. Now not having food I wouldn't accept as a reason to do anything except question the person unless the rabbits were pictured to be thin because some breeds or feeding styles do require the rabbit to run out of food shortly before the next feeding. Maybe the feces comments were exaggerated too, I have seen some major rabbit barns in the area with several feet of moldy feces under the cages, but 2 people said these animals had no water, were aggressively thirsty when given water, and there were dead animals. The only person defending her is her neighbor and we have no idea if that person is trustworthy either. Maybe seeing any activity around the shed is enough for her to say the animals are cared for or maybe she grew up on a bad farm where animals were regularly neglected by letting manure pile up in pens and not always checking the food and water. Some people actually think regular deaths from preventable things like not getting out there to fill the water containers on time is a normal part of animal breeding. At minimum someone who was supposed to take care of these rabbits dropped the ball in the past 24hrs and failed to see to the rabbits when they should have or they wouldn't have been so thirsty and there would not be dead bodies left sitting in the cages. If they'd taken care of those things when they should have we probably would not be seeing this on the news and someone would just have a warning to clean their rabbit barn out better.

 

[PulpFaction]

I don't think I've heard of anyone who's lost their animals over an individuals complaint of their farm without deserving it. I have heard of plenty of people who had animal control show up at their door over various animals only to see everyone had food, water, and shelter, and they left to never bother them again. In most cases even if they see something wrong they'll just give you a warning that you need to fix certain things in a given amount of time. It's only when the situation is severe and animals are dying that they actually take them away on the spot. Who knows they may have warned this person before about the lack of water and dying animals in the past already. Animal control has been called 4 times on the people next to us about tying horses to trees with no water and shutting them up in stalls they built that have no ventilation and they still haven't had any animals taken from them. They just give them a warning, all the horses suddenly appear in the tiny pasture with hay and water buckets for about a week, and then they lock/tie them up again and someone else calls to repeat the process.

With the weather in that area that week, I'd be willing to bet many breeders were possibly losing some rabbits. It is unfortunate that things all came together as they did, and this is just one more reason for me to be paranoid about letting people come to my place. Good grief, what would someone have said if they came to do a check while I was at work yesterday and found a rabbit out of water and another dead in the nestbox from a delivery gone terribly wrong. Not to mention the fact that the SAME DAY I discovered that one of two little pullets I had introduced to keep each other company in a brooder cage had gone crazy and picked the other one terribly bloody during the 6 hours I'd been at work. Things happen when you have a lot of animals. It just takes one person coming by at the wrong time to condemn you.

__________ Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:37 pm __________

It bothers me that they called her a hoarder. 200 rabbits is not that many in the grand scheme of things, and you know that a fair amount of that number were probably kits.

Akane is right though, it does take pretty bad conditions for them to actually take your animals.

The case was high profile because it was the first anonymous tip they received on their new "Animal Cruelty Hotline". They were likely under pressure to make the new hotline seem like "Hey, it's working!"

Oh, furthermore, I've since read that the volunteers are asking for donations of food and fresh greens instead of using the feed the breeder used, and are keeping the rabbits TOGETHER in dog kennels instead of wire bottom cages. Frankly, these things sound MUCH worse to me than a rabbit barn with all wire cages, a swamp cooler, and feed that must have been capable of putting rabbits in show condition. Scandalous.

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

is there a link we could use to get closer to the original article?

 

[MaggieJ]

The way I see it, we can't know what happened from hearsay and second hand reports. The event is enough to make us fear the worst - fear that the rabbits were neglected and fear also that animal rights activists have jumped in to "rescue" rabbits that may not have needed rescuing. Fear of what could happen to other breeders or ourselves makes us just a little too likely to jump to conclusions that may not be warranted. I'd want a lot more FACTS and PICTURES for documentation before getting too worked up, one way or the other.

 

[Brody]

I guess I have an aversion to spotlighting people or animal suffering for financial gain. Is it really about the animals or them getting to be heroes?

I am 200 percent with the camp that feels there isn't enough known information to make a judgement about this case - on either side.

Usually hoarding situations are incredibly sad for EVERYONE involved - the police, the owners, the animal agencies and the animals too. Mill situations are generally horrible as the people are aggressive and don't think they are in the wrong. This seems to be in between at the moment - the biggest concern I have is the dead animals and the sherrif's comments- I'd need to know more about them to be comfortable judging

I do want to look at the issue raised in the quotation I've included though. When 200 animals arrive on your doorstep at once and from the typical hoarding situation there is no way you can be prepared. You simply will not have the resources or space or manpower or money you need. Some examples of casesI've been involved with first hand:60 cats; 240 dogs; 100 budgies; 18 rabbits at once -each one of them strained the rescue I was working with to the point of breaking. I hate the media but I was very grateful to them as they helped make sure we had the resources (in a variety of ways) to improvethe animals condition - nothing worse than taking them from a home and having to kee them in worse condition thnn they were. Has media always been needed and used?No - when there is time to plan, or animals intake can be staggered or it is one sad case coming to one rescue usually the internal contacts of that rescue are enough. But for big sudden volume publicity is a needed evil.

I hope the rabbits come out of this ok - and if the woman's advocaates are correct she does as well. I'm ok with not knowing more - but you can sure I won't be judging anybody until there is a lot more reputable information I can access

 

[PulpFaction]

Here's my reasoning for assuming the best of the breeder:

She has been raising and competitively showing angoras, among other breeds, since 1980-something. That's doesn't happen without knowing what you're doing and maintaining some modicum of care for the animals. You can't be competitive with ANY rabbit, or any animal, without good husbandry skills in diet and care. With Angoras, especially, it requires continuous maintenance and care, as I'm sure those of you with Angoras would attest to. You don't go out there and spend time grooming animals up some you can at some point go to a show and NOT provide food and water for them. THat's absurd.

Furthermore, from what I recall without looking up the story again (my connection is terrible here,) she works at a university in labratory sciences and is dialed in with lab animal care. I'm sure many of us dislike thinking too much about lab animals and the use of them could be hotly debated, but the fact remains for many experiments to be successful, the animals must be in good condition. Someone that does this for a living is familiar with these things.

Should she have stayed home from work to refill water bottles on this exceptionally hot day? Should she have found someone that could stop in and check on them? Perhaps. But sometimes the worse things happen with no notice. Those of you that say we don't know enough are right. We don't know if this was a frequent event or a one time thing, but I can tell you the few pictures of rabbits I have seen, they did NOT look to be in poor condition or ill health. We all know rabbits don't eat if they don't have water, and the short haired rabbits that I saw all seemed to be fat and in gleaming condition. (In fact, I actually don't recall seeing any photos of angoras.)

So, that's why I'm outraged. People these days are beginning to equate breeder-hobbyists as hoarders simply because they have numbers of animals that are unfamiliar to them except in the context of dramatic A&E reality shows as we move further from our agricultural roots. It is frightening.

 

[ladysown]

as per meat rabbits board. she's been forced to sign over all rights to her rabbits as they were charging her $5/day for rabbit care including ALL the kits still in the nestbox. She simply couldn't afford that kind of money as a per day charge. 200 rabbits at $5/day gives a $1000/day charge. Ridiculous amount of money to charge for caring for rabbits.

They are in process of spaying and neutering her rabbits. ALL THIS without any conviction. She's lost her rabbits. So regardless of what happens the AR people have already won.

I think the fact that this can happen is the reason why people should loudly and voraciously be complaining. Seriously. For someone to lose their hobby because they can't afford to pay fees to provide care for their rabbits while they fight to prove their innocence? Seriously folks... THAT"S what the problem is here.

Innocent or guilty... she shouldn't lose her animals without having a chance AT ALL.

 

[MaggieJ]

I agree with that wholeheartedly, Ladysown.

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

As do I-- There is a reason for the Anti NAIS and other movements in this country--Big Brother Does NOT have the best interest of people in mind...

 

[ilovehome]

"I hate the media but I was very grateful to them as they helped make sure we had the resources (in a variety of ways) to improvethe animals condition - nothing worse than taking them from a home and having to kee them in worse condition thnn they were. Has media always been needed and used?No - when there is time to plan, or animals intake can be staggered or it is one sad case coming to one rescue usually the internal contacts of that rescue are enough. But for big sudden volume publicity is a needed evil."



The shelter can ask for assistance with out taking the media to the raid with them, or giving interviews at the location.

True altruism does not require a camera or an audience.<br /><br />__________ Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:42 pm __________<br /><br />"They are in process of spaying and neutering her rabbits. ALL THIS without any conviction. She's lost her rabbits. So regardless of what happens the AR people have already won.

I think the fact that this can happen is the reason why people should loudly and voraciously be complaining. Seriously. For someone to lose their hobby because they can't afford to pay fees to provide care for their rabbits while they fight to prove their innocence? Seriously folks... THAT"S what the problem is here.

Innocent or guilty... she shouldn't lose her animals without having a chance AT ALL."


Oh, how totally sad!!!!!! I did not know they could do spay or neuter until after the hearing!

 

[Honorine]

The rabbits in the freezer were supposed to go to a raptor refuge I believe, they may have taken one dead rabbit out of the barn itself. Rabbits do die for sometimes no reason, a dead rabbit or two isn't a sign of neglect to me. It appears that the House Rabbit Society was slinking around her place and may have turned off a water line that went to her swamp cooler, and it was the local chapter of the HRS that has had it in for her for some time. 200 rabbits really is just a drop in the bucket for many show breeders, particularly counting litters- 20 does, 10 kits each equals 200, it adds up quick. Do I have manure and urine in my trays right now? Sure, I stagger when I do the trays, normally stack by stack, so there's always very clean ones and fairly full ones, imagine most rabbit people do the same. Do I think that plastic cat and dog carriers are a good idea? No, too hard to clean, too much work, stackers are far simpler. I think this woman is being railroaded, HRS is behind the entire situation, and no doubt they will now target other breeders. I don't let anyone come here anymore, haven't for years, meet folks at shows, occasionally sell to a pet shop, or pack them up and ship them off to an auction, or quite frankly give them a tap on the head. Its just not worth it dealing with pet people, you never know who you might be dealing with, could be a rabid AR who hates you for being a breeder.

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

or pack them up and ship them off to an auction, or quite frankly give them a tap on the head. Its just not worth it dealing with pet people, you never know who you might be dealing with, could be a rabid AR who hates you for being a breeder.

You have a valid point== I recently sent 16 rabbits off to Wildlife rehab center-- still alive (they euth them , so that they can be fed absolutely fresh!)
I can imagine keeping rabbits in those solid dog crates-- the mess involved would be atrocious!
And hey, if someone shut off the water line-- and that can be shown-- that leads to all kinds of other charges-- such as trespassing, And if the trespasser 'endangered' the animals by interfering with water and cooling-- how does that look in court?

 

[PulpFaction]

I hope she gathers enough evidence to bring a suit against the city (county?) and/or the trespassing AR people. This is so disturbing.

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

I want to know why they just took them? Why did they not write a citation for no water and follow up with 24-48 hrs to see if conditions had "improved"??????? This is what I don't get. Nothing was said as whether there was food on the premises for them, like a bag of pellets of hay etc.???

There was some sort of "raid" here a few years ago about the same number of rabbits, this one a meat operation though. The SPCA said they were in horrendous condition.. the usual: there was; gasp!.. RABBIT POOP in their cages. I saw this on the evening news.. Large WHITE NZ's all stuffed into small wire dog cages, amazingly enough bright white and clean and sleek looking. Pretty amazing that within a few hours all these filthy rabbits were bright white!! Oh I forgot to mention the raid happened about 2 weeks before Easter... and that they were touted as being "good pets". Much like the puppy raid that happened a couple weeks before Christmas..


Annette.. I should mention to you and to others that use Kijiji, that it is populated with these types of extreme ARR"s as well and to be careful with any responses to your adds there...

 

[tailwagging]

yup, or the puppy raids right before valentines.
just think of all that wool in a crate!

 

[Miss M]

Reading the comments on the article posted by the OP is eye-opening. Several people posted who know the lady, and one went in depth about her operation and what the rescue people did. Wow.

 

[hoodat]

This should serve as an object lesson to all of us. Raising rabbits has now become a clandestine operation like growing marijuana.I realize we are all enthusiastic about our bunrabs and would love to talk about them but we have to watch who we talk to. One careless remark and we find the Animal Control at our door confiscating our rabbits as though they were somehow illegal and making up justifications after the fact. It's a disgusting situation but we may as well face up to it. Any of us could be next.

 

[tailwagging]

maybe now breeders of all kinds of animals will join together and fight this, instead looking down others because they raise dogs or cats or what have you. maybe there will be more understanding about not having people come to there place. (sorry small vent)