Why No Otters?

[MamaSheepdog]

I started my herd with two does and two bucks. One buck died before I bred him, so in reality I began with one buck and two does. The buck has a lot of otter in his background, and one doe has a bit. Without going into detail on their placement on the 3 generation pedigrees, here are the colors in my original animal's bloodlines:

"Black Floyd"- Black buck:

1 Black
3 Broken Black
6 Black Otter
1 Broken Black Otter
3 REW

"Feather"- Broken Black doe:

4 Black
2 Broken Black
4 Broken Blue
3 Black Otter
1 REW

Poppy- Opal doe:

5 Opal
4 Lynx
4 Blue
1 Broken Seal

 

[skysthelimit]

unless the rabbit in question is him/herself an otter or an agouti, you won't have any otters. Otter is dominant to self, so if the rabbit is any type of self, it cannot carry an otter gene or it would be an otter.

black cannot carry otter


otter at_B_C_D_E_
Black a_B_

Otter can carry black in the second slot ata_B_, but black cannot carry otter, or it would be an otter.

The only one that could carry otter is the Opal, the agouti, because agouti is dominant, Aat, but since there is blue and lynx in the background, that means she carries self on the other half of the color gene AaB_, so no otter for her.

__________ Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:55 pm __________

I got an otter from a castor that carries self- AaB_, because the otter gene ataB_ dominated the self gene the castor had, ata, except my otter also had the REW gene, so I did not know she was an otter till I bred her.
I bred her to a broken black, that could only have aaB_, and she had 4 kits, 3 otters, 1 black,

So
------ata

Aa-----Aat-----Aa Castor (carrying otter)-------Castor
-------ata-----aa otter (carrying self)--------self

 

[MamaSheepdog]

OH.

 

[skysthelimit]

OH.

I hope that made since. Sable is also the dominant agouti gene in german shepherds, called wolf gray. I wanted sables so bad, and I could not understand if it was the dominant color, why there are not a lot of sable gsds. I did some studying and quickly discovered that since it is dominant and can't hide, like otter and castor, once you discard it, breed away from it, you no longer have it. My breeder wanted to eliminate the castors from her lines, so she gave me her castor, that's all she had to do. She is also eliminating otters, so she's giving me everything that is an otter, she has no castors to hide the gene, so there goes the otter.

I wish I could eliminate REW, but since it hides under everything, I will probably always have it, though I have one two bucks that don't have it.

 

[tm_bunnyloft]

That just answered on of my questions I came up with and hadn't had a chance to ask. THanks.

 

[caroline]

I have otters. I'll trade you 2 otter does for one chocolate [or lilac buck]
I'll even make the drive

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Deal!

But wont I need a buck and a doe just to be safe?

 

[tm_bunnyloft]

If one is Otter you will get Otter. As long as you breed to black, chocolate, blue or lilac. Otter is dominant over self.
I so need to move to Cali.

Or at least that is how I understand it....... :?

 

[caroline]

Deal!

But wont I need a buck and a doe just to be safe?

No. Since otter is dominant to self you just have to breed to a black, blue, chocolate, or lilac buck and you'll have some, or all otter kits. If it's from one of my does it will probably be some because most of my otters carry self too.
Here's Miss Kitty, the beginning of my otter Rex.

 

[tm_bunnyloft]

She so Pretty!!!!!

 

[skysthelimit]

Lovely bun

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Deal!

But wont I need a buck and a doe just to be safe?

No. Since otter is dominant to self you just have to breed to a black, blue, chocolate, or lilac buck and you'll have some, or all otter kits. If it's from one of my does it will probably be some because most of my otters carry self too.

Ah-hah! I think I get it now.

Do you have blue otters too? If I breed a blue buck to a black otter doe, I have the chance of getting blue otters, correct?

Miss Kitty is very pretty.

 

[skysthelimit]

Makes me tingle. Blue otters

 

[3mina]

So THAT'S what that is!
Riddle me this, I have this colour, one with silver instead of tan with the black, 2 chins, blue (?) with tan, 1 self that if I'm understanding what I'm reading is an amber since he's a self (no white or shaded belly), and a red (white belly) Those are the first litter I had from a castor doe I bought bred. The 'amber' is a buck, 1 of the chins and the 'red' were also bucks (I don't have them anymore). So I guess my question is what am I going to get when I breed the amber to the other colours?
I was going to ask what about the castor but I've been getting mostly what looks like castor but without the black overlay, a single black kit, and chins.

 

[skysthelimit]

So THAT'S what that is!
Riddle me this, I have this colour, one with silver instead of tan with the black, 2 chins, blue (?) with tan, 1 self that if I'm understanding what I'm reading is an amber since he's a self (no white or shaded belly), and a red (white belly) Those are the first litter I had from a castor doe I bought bred. The 'amber' is a buck, 1 of the chins and the 'red' were also bucks (I don't have them anymore). So I guess my question is what am I going to get when I breed the amber to the other colours?
I was going to ask what about the castor but I've been getting mostly what looks like castor but without the black overlay, a single black kit, and chins.

sliver instead of tan sounds like a silver martin.
blue with tan is a blue otter or opal.

Amber is agouti, it should have a white belly.
Red is agouti as well, but no white belly.
Amber would be castor without the black overlay.

 

[3mina]

So I got rid of the amber not the red, hmm.....
Just going by colour, breeding the otter, silver martin, opal(?) or chin to the red will give me what possibilities?
Or am I just going to muddle colours?

 

[skysthelimit]

Because the Red is agouti, you will get more castors, chins, otters and martins, which will all carry non extension, and then perhaps get strange colors when they are bred.
Treat the Red like an Agouti for the first generation, after that, you have to hope the non extension gene gets buried.
Opal to Amber will get you more opals and castors, depending on what the opals carries, maybe lynx.

 

[3mina]

I'd be doubling up since they're litter mates. I'm looking at breeding the red back to his dam just to see what I get.

 

[caroline]

Deal!

But wont I need a buck and a doe just to be safe?

No. Since otter is dominant to self you just have to breed to a black, blue, chocolate, or lilac buck and you'll have some, or all otter kits. If it's from one of my does it will probably be some because most of my otters carry self too.

Ah-hah! I think I get it now.

Do you have blue otters too? If I breed a blue buck to a black otter doe, I have the chance of getting blue otters, correct?

Miss Kitty is very pretty.

Miss Kitty does not carry dilute, so no blue from her. I have been trying to get to the "brown" spectrum so wasn't looking for blue, I was hoping for chocolate [as I mentioned in the red/amber thread] and now I'm doubtful that I even HAVE that brown gene in all the "ambers" hat may be reds :x
What I have had out of her is: Black otter, Castor, REW, Chin, Black silver Martin and Seal [actually self-chin] so I've concluded that her genotype is probably ata BB Cc DD EE.

Since I wanted to get the bb colors I wasn't keeping many black otters. In her second litter she had a beautiful black silver martin doe that I kept, even though it's not a recognized color, because she was so nice. She also had some nice castor kits in her first litter and I kept several does and bucks. The does carried the "at" gene, the bucks didn't. So the otters that I have are from Miss Kitty, Her daughters Java, Luscious and Yummy.
I have a flashy looking broken black otter buck out of Miss Kitty's daughter, Luscious

 

[skysthelimit]

That's a nice shoulder.

The judge who holds the COD for silver martins is supposed to present at Nationals this year. I thought about trying to perfect a strain in anticipation, but my chin doe has yet to have any offspring survive to 8 weeks. The last litter succumbed to what appeared to be enteritis, they pretty much wasted away, and this one is the same. They are out in the yard with the meat kits.