Genetics question

[Pinkears1979]

Hi All

I thought id show a little update they are approx 4 weeks old in this photo.
1. Chocolate Harlequin vm - AabbC_D_eje
2. This was the one we thought was tort but although his ears and nose are slightly darker than the other orange everything else is pretty similar. White tummy, white inside ears. The only confusion is they could turn out to be chocolate Agouti/cinnamon but im still waiting for tips to develop.
3. Chocolate self vm - aabbC_DdEe
4. Opal AaBbC_ddE_
5. Similar to 2 but more likely to be an orange.
6. Lynx AabbC_ddE_

 

[MsTemeraire]

No.2 looks very much like it coule be a Chocolate Tort. They can look very similar to Orange at first, but the belly is coloured, sometimes only lightly coloured but definitely not snow white.
This litter was two chocolate torts and an orange.

 

[Pinkears1979]

Its hard to tell what colour the inside of your two chocolate torts are? IS that the only real difference as they seem to have a similar colour tummy and around their eyes?

These 1st 3 photos are of number 2. Although it has a darker nose and ears, the inside of the ears are white, around the eyes, under chin and tummy and around the nostrels and underside of tail.

This is them together their tummys are practically identical. The only difference is the one on the right is vienna marked on the top of its head and maybe a tiny bit on their nose which takes away any possible dark nose. What do you think?

 

[Alaska Satin]

Its hard to tell what colour the inside of your two chocolate torts are? IS that the only real difference as they seem to have a similar colour tummy and around their eyes?

These 1st 3 photos are of number 2. Although it has a darker nose and ears, the inside of the ears are white, around the eyes, under chin and tummy and around the nostrels and underside of tail.

This is them together their tummys are practically identical. The only difference is the one on the right is vienna marked on the top of its head and maybe a tiny bit on their nose which takes away any possible dark nose. What do you think?

Neither of them are torts of any color - torts do not have creamy bellies, ear lining or around the nostrils. Torts are non-extension self blacks, so they have dark/smoky-colored bellies and no agouti trim.

Those bunnies are both oranges (with varying amounts of "smut," which is color left over from the non-extension allele's relative ineffectiveness at eliminating the dark coloration on shorter fur).

 

[MsTemeraire]

Neither of them are torts of any color - torts do not have creamy bellies, ear lining or around the nostrils. Torts are non-extension self blacks, so they have dark/smoky-colored bellies and no agouti trim.

In my own experience, Chocolate Torts do start off looking very similar to Oranges. I've already posted one photo of a litter which contained two Choc Torts and a (choc based) Orange to show how similar they are when young. I kept one of the choc tort bucks and photographed him as he developed. He was shown and placed as a choc tort, and bred as a choc tort. I've since bred other choc torts that started off the same including one from black tort x black tort.

 

[Alaska Satin]

In my own experience, Chocolate Torts do start off looking very similar to Oranges. I've already posted one photo of a litter which contained two Choc Torts and a (choc based) Orange to show how similar they are when young. I kept one of the choc tort bucks and photographed him as he developed. He was shown and placed as a choc tort, and bred as a choc tort. I've since bred other choc torts that started off the same including one from black tort x black tort.

What a pretty bunny! Is it a Britannia Petite? (That's what we'd call it in the US). We don't have that color in Brits here yet - I like it!

Your tort does not have a creamy belly like those of the OP - it's essentially the same color as the rest of the rabbit, which is what you'd expect in a self. A chocolate tort has varying amounts (depending on the individual) of chocolate tipping "left over"on the shorter fur, so chocolate-tipped fur on the belly would look much less obvious than the black tipping on a regular (black) tort. But it still is not creamy like an agouti.

I agree, chocolate-based agouti colors, including orange/red, are tricky to tell apart from black-based agouti colors. We have had many long-term debates over the years about whether several particular Rexes were amber or just a smutty red. (One took a test breeding to finally decide!). But they all have the normal agouti "trim," unlike the torts.

 

[MsTemeraire]

What a pretty bunny! Is it a Britannia Petite? (That's what we'd call it in the US). We don't have that color in Brits here yet - I like it!

Your tort does not have a creamy belly like those of the OP - it's essentially the same color as the rest of the rabbit, which is what you'd expect in a self. A chocolate tort has varying amounts (depending on the individual) of chocolate tipping "left over"on the shorter fur, so chocolate-tipped fur on the belly would look much less obvious than the black tipping on a regular (black) tort. But it still is not creamy like an agouti.

I agree, chocolate-based agouti colors, including orange/red, are tricky to tell apart from black-based agouti colors. We have had many long-term debates over the years about whether several particular Rexes were amber or just a smutty red. (One took a test breeding to finally decide!). But they all have the normal agouti "trim," unlike the torts.

Yes, he's a (UK) Polish, (US) Brit. We have a very wide range of recognised colours here in Poles.

He did have a light belly when young, only slightly coloured in comparison to his Orange sibling.
Choc tort on the left, Orange on the right. Note his white undtertail, too.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Yes, he's a (UK) Polish, (US) Brit. We have a very wide range of recognised colours here in Poles.

He did have a light belly when young, only slightly coloured in comparison to his Orange sibling.
Choc tort on the left, Orange on the right. Note his white undtertail, too.

That's very interesting.

His belly still looks colored compared to the orange, and his undertail doesn't look exactly white, at least on my screen. But I have noticed that my torts (Mini Rex and satin, so presenting a bit differently because of coat differences, and mostly black- or blue-based) have had wildly varying amounts of color in the areas of shorter fur: sometimes the bellies and especially the undertails were such pale gray (especially on the blue torts) that I had to take a second look. But they were never the clearly defined creamy white of an agouti.

Can you tell what varieties his parents and siblings were? Any selfs?