Why I cannot advocate "pet" related rabbit websites...

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DogCatMom":1idayobt said:
Rabbit Handling/Temperament:
I've also read many tales of woe here about scratched arms from simply reaching into cages to change water/feed dishes. These scratching/biting rabbits aren't even being picked up; they're simply being served. Should they then all be sacrificed?! What genetic bottle-necks that would create! :shock: Or should rabbit-keepers perhaps wear protective gear, gear which I've seen available for sale and which wouldn't be that difficult to make from scrap leather or canvas? esp. when the scratchers are those does who "want to be bred" or "have just been bred" or are otherwise "hormonal." It doesn't seem right that a breeding doe would be put down for scratching her human when she's acting like a rabbit and protecting her space. It seems more reasonable that the human would protect him/herself with protective arm guards (vambraces) or leather gloves with long cuffs.

Not buying this at all.
I had two female, unaltered rabbits as pets. Neither ever got "hormonal" and tried to bite me at any time. I have maybe 20 does and 4 different breeds at the moment. Only two does ever attacked or scratched me while putting my hand in the cage. I've had young does, adolescent does, hormonal does, pregnant does, nursing does. Some say it's a hormonal thing, but I'm not seeing that. It's not always a rearing issue either, because this has happened with a doe I raised from birth. Her mother was like that as well.
I've only had two bucks do this in the past 3 years. They were adults, had been bred. I wouldn't call them hormonal. Raised from birth or very close. One has adult offspring, which aren't particular nice rabbits so far.
It's best to eliminate that from my lines as quick as possible, since I have so many other does and bucks that are calm and affectionate.

I have yet to have a spraying buck.

As far as vets, I have a limit on how much I'll spent on any animal. I don't make those kind of routine visits to health officials even for myself.

Pet websites, not just HRS specifically, are pet websites, so we are just not going to agree. Not all are bad, but many don't just offer suggestions, they spout their info like it's the gospel truth. As a breeder, I cannot run my rabbitry as if I have 40 pet rabbits, it wouldn't be time or cost effective. I don't like the way they slam breeders, and they do. I could easily live with them if they didn't do that.
 
A simple solution to a complex problem: I don't sell pet rabbits!

I stopped this several years ago. Far too many problems for so little amount of money.
Bless those of you that do fill this need. You've more patience than me.

grumpy.
 
DogCatMom":3jnygcu4 said:
(Ready for flames.) It's discouraging to find the same close-minded attitudes here at RT that I fled from at the "other" rabbit forums (fora?).

Examples from RT, paraphrased to be short:
"Vets are terrible/a waste of money/just out for money/will kill your rabbit(s)."
"Feeding your rabbit 4-6 cups of fruit/vegs a day is...[stupid/will kill it]."
"Pet rabbit owners think they have to sterilize [rabbits] immediately."

Examples from other rabbit forums:
--"Rabbits living on wire get sore hocks." (as if it's 100% cause and effect)
--"Rabbits must live indoors." (most people cannot fit more than 6 to 8 rabbits into a house, let alone babies. OOPS! I forgot! NO BABIES ALLOWED!)
--"Rabbits MUST have a minimum of 3 to 4 hours EACH DAY of exercise outside their enclosure." :roll:
--And, of course, the personal attacks I witnessed (yes, even from mods) against a couple of people who innocently asked questions about cages, breeding, and/or raising meat rabbits. I PM'd these people and told them about RT.

OK. Let's look at some "hot" topics:

Spay/Neuter:
Unless you've been raised with breed-able animals, jumping right in with intact animals is pretty intimidating/scary. Being in a military family, I wasn't raised with pets--we occasionally had a cat--so my lifetime experience with breed-able animals of any species is pretty limited.
--My college boyfriend and I took in a female cat in an Atlanta winter (ice storm and all) who turned out to be pregnant. We helped with the baby kittens, but MammaCat delivered them when we were both at classes/work.
--It took me 5 years of living with Bernese Mtn. Dogs to even feel comfortable about the possibility of an intact female or male in my house, but of course since I'm active in Rescue, my doggies are (by Rescue policy) usually neutered/spayed before they take up permanent residence.
--I've never had a rabbit before. I started researching rabbits last summer, hoping to acquire a fiber rabbit. What with one thing and another, I ended up with an American Chinchilla male (neutered by Animal Control) who was part of a confiscation due to lack of shade, water, and other humane necessities (a back-yard meat operation inside city limits--contrary to the law *sigh*).

I've read plenty on RT about intact males spraying urine in their owners' faces, spraying on the walls, etc. Not something I want to deal with, for sure not in the house! Does biting me as I feed them because they want to be bred? Also not something I want to deal with, although being bitten by a rabbit can't possibly be as bad as some of the "grazes" and "nips" I've received from rescue dogs (deep bruising that takes three or more weeks to go away). In any case, the urine spraying and the "wanna be bred" biting sound like terrific arguments in favor of spay/neutering rabbits, at least to me. And, for such a surgery, I'd like a medically trained, rabbit-savvy veterinarian to perform it. Not myself; not even an experienced breeder/mentor. Rabbits are known to be especially sensitive to anesthesia, even in the hands of rabbit ("Exotics") certified vets, so I've already written down the names of three such within a 20-minute drive of my house. I'm glad they're there, frankly.

I've read some heart-wrenching experiences here at RT from breeders who sent home pet rabbits and then learned that the new "owners"
--didn't keep the male(s) and female(s) separated or
--gave them away/sold them to people even less well informed or
--couldn't give any account of what happened to the rabbits :(

But it also seems that (at least some) breeders *also* want pet rabbit owners NOT to spay/neuter. What, then, when children mess up Mom's/Dad's careful rotation of males/females in the play yard? Unplanned babies. :(

It seems that there's just no pleasing some people on this point. :(

Feeding Rabbits:
I feed my own rabbit minimal pellets--maybe one-third the amount recommended for a 12-lb rabbit--because I also feed him 4 cups (liberally measured) of plant foods each day (2 cups per day for every 5 lb of rabbit). These plant foods may be foraged from my garden and roses/blackberries or "gathered" from the produce store; they encompass herbs, leafy vegetables, root veggies (small amounts; one 1/2-inch [1-cm] slice of a sweet potato a day, for example), and branches. He also gets tree branches for chewing and orchard grass hay.

He's lived here since September 28, 2013. I can't claim any long-term health results for him yet, but his weight four weeks ago was within 0.05 lb (23 grams) of what he weighed when I brought him home and had him weighed at the vet's office.

The House Rabbit Handbook (5th ed.) has 3 detailed pages on "Diet Plans for Healthy Rabbits." The plans are broken down by age: The Young Diet (birth to 1 year) and The Adult Diet. The second and third pages provide special dietary plans for rabbit-keepers who want to provide extended care to pet rabbits with long-term illness (e.g., kidney disease) or other problems (e.g., need to gain/lose weight).

The only way to counter the incorrect (in this one case) information attributed to HRS is to quote the book directly. I hope I'm not violating copyright by providing this quote from p. 59:

"The Young Diet
"Take extra care with weanlings, under seven weeks old, to keep their food clean....Watch for sensitivity to a particular food by adding only one new food at a time.

"Table 3. Beginner Diets: Babies and 'Teenagers'
"Birth to 2 weeks: Mother's milk.
"2-4 weeks: Mother's milk, nibbles of alfalfa hay, pellets, well-washed greens--introduced one at a time (Orphans: baby food starter, see page 85)
"4-7 weeks: Mother's milk, unlimited alfalfa hay and pellets (for kids and mom), clean veggies/fruit--add one at a time.
"7 weeks-7 months: Unlimited alfalfa hay and pellets, additional veggies/fruit--one at a time.
"7 months-1 year: Introduce grass and oat hays, gradually eliminate alfalfa, gradually limit pellets, expand variety of fresh produce."

Neither in this Diet section nor elsewhere in this book does HRS say that 8-week-old babies should be fed 4 to 6 cups of fruits/veggies per day, unlimited hay, and minimal pellets, as alleged earlier on this thread. I don't know where that information originated, but it wasn't The House Rabbit Handbook.

Rabbit Handling/Temperament:
I've also read many tales of woe here about scratched arms from simply reaching into cages to change water/feed dishes. These scratching/biting rabbits aren't even being picked up; they're simply being served. Should they then all be sacrificed?! What genetic bottle-necks that would create! :shock: Or should rabbit-keepers perhaps wear protective gear, gear which I've seen available for sale and which wouldn't be that difficult to make from scrap leather or canvas? esp. when the scratchers are those does who "want to be bred" or "have just been bred" or are otherwise "hormonal." It doesn't seem right that a breeding doe would be put down for scratching her human when she's acting like a rabbit and protecting her space. It seems more reasonable that the human would protect him/herself with protective arm guards (vambraces) or leather gloves with long cuffs.

Children/Large Rabbits:
I won't address the children/large rabbits aspect in detail. My rabbit, although 12 lb, isn't what I consider "large," and I have no small children in my life right now.... However, there does seem to be a bit of logic in a Very Large rabbit: s/he would be too large for any young child to even entertain the idea of picking up! :) (Thinking here of a 20-lb Flemish Giant, esp. when stretched out in "lounging" position.)

Thus my thoughts.

Sorry DogCatMom, I certainly don't mean to be discouraging or scare you off from RT.

Let me just clarify a few things.

1. Spay/Neuter
It's not that I don't think rabbit should EVER be spayed/neutered, it's just that 90% of the time they don't really need it.
I know of at least 3 or 4 people who's rabbits died when they were spayed/neutered, and I only know 1 or 2 that have successfully had this surgery done on their rabbits. With those kind of odds, I don't usually recommend spaying/neutering unless it has to be done.
Maybe it is just because out here where we live most of the vets are " Country vets" that are really only familiar large livestock. although, one person I know who lost their rabbit did use an "exotic" vet...............

The only reason a rabbit would really need to be spayed/neutered is: (a) It has a chance of being around the opposite gender. Of course in that case sterilizing is necessary to prevent unwanted litters. (b) Behavioral issues like spraying, broodiness, etc. This is rare in my experience. Out of the 40+ different bucks we have owned over the years, only two were consistent sprayers. I have not had ANY does that bite or scratch just because they "want to get bred". Plus, usually rabbits only develop these issues if they used in a breeding program. If they are kept by themselves, or with the same gender, it is usually not a problem.

So when someone comes to me and asks if they should spay/neuter their new bunny right away, I will tell them the truth. It is a risky procedure in rabbits, and it should only be done when necessary. I always advise them to wait until the rabbit is over 6 months of age to see if they will have any behavioral issues.
90% of them don't, and thus they never need to put their rabbit through that very dangerous procedure.

When people buy pets, I always advise them to either just get one rabbit, or get two of the same gender, so they don't have to worry about unwanted litters.
I totally understand if someone wants to get their rabbit spayed/neutered for one of these reasons. I just want them to understand the risks, so they only do this if it is absolutely necessary.
I've met one to many little girls with broken hearts, because their beloved pet rabbit died on the operating table. I won't recommend anyone spay or neuter their rabbit without very careful consideration.


2. Diet
Most people don't buy the HRS book, they just read the websites. I've never read that book, but I am very glad to hear that they advocate slowly introducing rabbits to a high veggie/fruit diet.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of pet/house rabbit websites that recommend feed rabbits tons of veggies, and don't mention anything about not feeding these to young rabbits, or introducing it slowly to ones that are not used to it.
This one for instance.

http://www.indianahrs.org/rabbit-care/g ... ables.aspx
It does not say anything about not feed veggies to baby rabbits.

And this one.
http://www.houserabbitga.com/?page_id=79
This one also doesn't mention anything about not feeding this diet to babies.

http://rabbit.org/suggested-vegetables- ... bbit-diet/
This one says greens should make up "75% of the fresh portion of your rabbit’s diet", and the article says nothing about not feeding that to babies.

http://www.crittercures.com/blog/2010/0 ... abbit.html
This one is written by a vet! She says rabbits need "2 to 4 cups of fresh vegetables every day" "Rabbit pellets are high in fat and are kind of like junk food to rabbits", and the article says nothing about not feeding veggies to baby rabbits.

Maybe people just need to do their research more. But the fact is that if someone where to skim through these or similar sites, they would come away thinking that they need to feed their new rabbit mostly veggies, and hardly any pellets.
I'm tired of correcting this misinformation, or hearing from people who have lost or made their rabbit sick by doing this.

3. Rabbit handling/Temperament
b]Rabbit Handling/Temperament:[/b]
I've also read many tales of woe here about scratched arms from simply reaching into cages to change water/feed dishes. These scratching/biting rabbits aren't even being picked up; they're simply being served. Should they then all be sacrificed?!
Ok, out of all the 60+ rabbits in my barn right now, none of them scratch or bite like that.
I have had couple rabbits that were really aggressive, and we culled them. We don't use extremely aggressive rabbits that bite or scratch in our breeding program.
I think it was more just the temperament of those rabbits, and had nothing to do with hormones, and more individual personality/genetics.

4. Children/large rabbits
I actually do agree with them on this. A lot of small breeds like Netherlands or Holland lops do tend to have higher strung personalities than larger breeds.

So I don't disagree with everything HRS and pet sites say. I actually agree with them on a quite few things. But I will never recommend their websites or books, because a lot of the information IS incorrect, or biased.

Getting back to the original post, the topic was "Why I cannot advocate "pet" related rabbit websites.

I cannot advocate them because their suggestions for diet can be misleading if not read very thoroughly.
I cannot advocate them because they recommend ALL rabbits must be spayed/neutered, regardless of potential health risks, even if it is not really necessary.
I cannot advocate them because they paint anyone who breeds rabbits, especially meat rabbits, or shows rabbits, to be a terrible person.
I cannot advocate them because they recommend always keeping a rabbit on a solid floor, something which can actually be harmful to the rabbit if not done correctly.
I cannot advocate them because they tend to go beyond simply advocating for humane treatment of rabbits, and advocate for animal "rights".
The last one is really the biggest reason.
 
Paraphrasing is not the whole picture, doesn't take the WHOLE paragraph/discussion in or show the entire meaning. Some or most doesn't equate to all...

Now on the other, I cannot plus most pet sites for the reasons already listed in the other posts. However, I do point people to them for potty training help as they seem to know more than most other places. Pet only sales are coming to a stop this year when I do have ones to sell, unless some one buys a show/brood and then calls them their "pet" I'm done. I just don't want to deal with people that think they can feed the rabbit whatever the site lists because the site lists it as "okay" any more.
 
I've also read many tales of woe here about scratched arms from simply reaching into cages to change water/feed dishes. These scratching/biting rabbits aren't even being picked up; they're simply being served. Should they then all be sacrificed?! What genetic bottle-necks that would create!

This is simply not true. I don't believe that breeding does are within your realm of experience.

From my experience, most rabbits never bite or scratch. Even hormonal does.
I don't work with "pet types", except my unaltered V-lop doe. She never ever bites or scratches. Her version of "acting hormonal" is pulling a bit of fur for mock nest building every so often.

None of my meat does "act hormonal" in the form of biting or scratching either. It wouldn't be NATURAL to THEM to act that way. They just don't feel threatened by me.
I only retain NATURALLY docile animals. There is no shortage of them. It would not drastically reduce the gene pool to remove the few aggressive animals that turn up. Rabbits have big litters, there is plenty of good blood to chose from.

Remember, rabbits started wild. What would we have today if breeders just wore heavy gloves and allowed them to "act like WILD rabbits?"

The reason ANY rabbit is a good pet and doesn't behave like a wild animal is because domestic rabbits have been carefully chosen for those tendencies. It's a breeders responsibility to continue choosing animals that have traits that allow them to enjoy their lives alongside humans.

It's not the neutering that makes them into companion animals. Imagine an neutered wild rabbit as a pet?
 
KKRabbitry":1zqz2bgn said:
DogCatMom":1zqz2bgn said:
(Ready for flames.) It's discouraging to find the same close-minded attitudes here at RT that I fled from at the "other" rabbit forums (fora?).

Examples from RT, paraphrased to be short:
"Vets are terrible/a waste of money/just out for money/will kill your rabbit(s)."
"Feeding your rabbit 4-6 cups of fruit/vegs a day is...[stupid/will kill it]."
"Pet rabbit owners think they have to sterilize [rabbits] immediately."

Examples from other rabbit forums:
--"Rabbits living on wire get sore hocks." (as if it's 100% cause and effect)
--"Rabbits must live indoors." (most people cannot fit more than 6 to 8 rabbits into a house, let alone babies. OOPS! I forgot! NO BABIES ALLOWED!)
--"Rabbits MUST have a minimum of 3 to 4 hours EACH DAY of exercise outside their enclosure." :roll:
--And, of course, the personal attacks I witnessed (yes, even from mods) against a couple of people who innocently asked questions about cages, breeding, and/or raising meat rabbits. I PM'd these people and told them about RT.

[snip]

Thus my thoughts.

Sorry DogCatMom, I certainly don't mean to be discouraging or scare you off from RT.

Let me just clarify a few things.

1. Spay/Neuter
It's not that I don't think rabbit should EVER be spayed/neutered, it's just that 90% of the time they don't really need it.
I know of at least 3 or 4 people who's rabbits died when they were spayed/neutered, and I only know 1 or 2 that have successfully had this surgery done on their rabbits. With those kind of odds, I don't usually recommend spaying/neutering unless it has to be done.
Maybe it is just because out here where we live most of the vets are " Country vets" that are really only familiar large livestock. although, one person I know who lost their rabbit did use an "exotic" vet...............

The only reason a rabbit would really need to be spayed/neutered is: (a) It has a chance of being around the opposite gender. Of course in that case sterilizing is necessary to prevent unwanted litters. (b) Behavioral issues like spraying, broodiness, etc. This is rare in my experience. Out of the 40+ different bucks we have owned over the years, only two were consistent sprayers. I have not had ANY does that bite or scratch just because they "want to get bred". Plus, usually rabbits only develop these issues if they used in a breeding program. If they are kept by themselves, or with the same gender, it is usually not a problem.

So when someone comes to me and asks if they should spay/neuter their new bunny right away, I will tell them the truth. It is a risky procedure in rabbits, and it should only be done when necessary. I always advise them to wait until the rabbit is over 6 months of age to see if they will have any behavioral issues.
90% of them don't, and thus they never need to put their rabbit through that very dangerous procedure.

First, thank you for your thoughtful reply.

Agreed w/regard to the surgery; however, this is a far cry from the "pile on" posts of last night that "vets are terrible." Rabbits--and cats, with which I have a LOT of experience--are more sensitive to anesthesia than are dogs, rabbits even more so than cats. Any surgery at all needs to be given serious consideration and *not* simply treated as a check-off item on a list. I've contested the "ALL rabbits must be spayed/neutered" dictum on pet rabbit sites myself, asking for scientific studies, and the best anyone can give me is some study from the 1950s. Unimpressive and unpersuasive.

KKRabbitry":1zqz2bgn said:
2. Diet
Most people don't buy the HRS book, they just read the websites. I've never read that book, but I am very glad to hear that they advocate slowly introducing rabbits to a high veggie/fruit diet.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of pet/house rabbit websites that recommend feed rabbits tons of veggies, and don't mention anything about not feeding these to young rabbits, or introducing it slowly to ones that are not used to it.
This one for instance.

http://www.indianahrs.org/rabbit-care/g ... ables.aspx
It does not say anything about not feed veggies to baby rabbits.
True, although http://www.indianahrs.org/rabbit-care/f ... s-hay.aspx discusses how to select hay and nutritious (vs. junky) pellets. Very little mention of baby rabbits, though, even on the Hay/Pellets page. :(

KKRabbitry":1zqz2bgn said:
And this one.
http://www.houserabbitga.com/?page_id=79
This one also doesn't mention anything about not feeding this diet to babies.
But it does on the prior page: http://www.houserabbitga.com/?page_id=35. To my mind, the more egregious statement on the "What to Feed" page I've provided is the "no oatmeal" rule. What??? :shock: Maybe the author means quick oatmeal or something, but rolled oats + hay seem to be a sovereign remedy for many bunny "tummy" ailments.

KKRabbitry":1zqz2bgn said:
http://rabbit.org/suggested-vegetables-and-fruits-for-a-rabbit-diet/
This one says greens should make up "75% of the fresh portion of your rabbit’s diet", and the article says nothing about not feeding that to babies.
The "Diet FAQ" page provides the same guidelines I quoted from the HRS book last night: http://rabbit.org/faq-diet/ . I think a lot of these "veggie pages" are intended to be read *after* someone reads the general page on Food, something like Food ==> What kind of foods?

KKRabbitry":1zqz2bgn said:
http://www.crittercures.com/blog/2010/09/what-should-i-feed-my-pet-rabbit.html
This one is written by a vet! She says rabbits need "2 to 4 cups of fresh vegetables every day" "Rabbit pellets are high in fat and are kind of like junk food to rabbits", and the article says nothing about not feeding veggies to baby rabbits.
She seems to have written this one for people with a very short reading attention span. *sigh* In her first paragraph, she says that many rabbits are fed a pellet-only diet, and introducing them to hay can be difficult due to the higher fat content of the pellets. In the context of "pellets vs. hay," well, yes, I can see that a rabbit might look upon pellets as much more tasty than hay and thus as...junk food. And many commercial pellets at pet stores (this one, for example) do have junk added to them. :angry:

KKRabbitry":1zqz2bgn said:
Maybe people just need to do their research more.
Agreed: TONS more research and, dare I suggest it, basic planning?! That's why so many rabbits are in rescue! (Dogs and cats, too....)

KKRabbitry":1zqz2bgn said:
But the fact is that if someone where to skim through these or similar sites, they would come away thinking that they need to feed their new rabbit mostly veggies, and hardly any pellets.
I'm tired of correcting this misinformation, or hearing from people who have lost or made their rabbit sick by doing this.
I understand that feeling; I've been correcting people's misunderstandings of the needs of Bernese Mtn. Dogs and other large breeds for 15 years, plus (to a much lesser extent) those of cats, for most of my adult life. It does get old, but I keep thinking, "I may be helping a future dog/cat avoid a terrible situation." It's not much, but it helps keep me going.

KKRabbitry":1zqz2bgn said:
3. Rabbit handling/Temperament
b]Rabbit Handling/Temperament:[/b]
I've also read many tales of woe here about scratched arms from simply reaching into cages to change water/feed dishes. These scratching/biting rabbits aren't even being picked up; they're simply being served. Should they then all be sacrificed?!
Ok, out of all the 60+ rabbits in my barn right now, none of them scratch or bite like that.
I have had couple rabbits that were really aggressive, and we culled them. We don't use extremely aggressive rabbits that bite or scratch in our breeding program.
I think it was more just the temperament of those rabbits, and had nothing to do with hormones, and more individual personality/genetics.

I only have the experiences of members of RT to go by, but there are enough reports of "my doe [scratched/bit/tried to bite/attacked] me" that it seems, on the whole, not to be a rare behavior. Not everyday behavior, but not all that rare, either. I'm happy for you that you have such well-behaved bunnies! :)

KKRabbitry":1zqz2bgn said:
4. Children/large rabbits
I actually do agree with them on this. A lot of small breeds like Netherlands or Holland lops do tend to have higher strung personalities than larger breeds.

There's one photo--I can't remember whether it was in one of the rabbit books or online--where a Flemish Giant is lying on the floor next to a Sheltie. Their bodies are the same length. Would a child try to pick up an adult Sheltie? (I hope not!) The FG's size would give pause to that idea, too. One hopes....

KKRabbitry":1zqz2bgn said:
So I don't disagree with everything HRS and pet sites say. I actually agree with them on a quite few things. But I will never recommend their websites or books, because a lot of the information IS incorrect, or biased.

They do get some things right in spite of their strident philosophies; but their practices spring from a generous impulse which is, unfortunately, incompletely informed.

KKRabbitry":1zqz2bgn said:
Getting back to the original post, the topic was "Why I cannot advocate "pet" related rabbit websites.

I cannot advocate them because their suggestions for diet can be misleading if not read very thoroughly.
Almost every time I take my dog(s) to the dog park, I spend considerable time in what I call "public education" discussions on diet, exercise, grooming, behavior, and health of my breed. I've done it for 15 years. Last Friday I had a 45-minute conversation with one woman at Point Isabel; Sunday, a 20-minute conversation with a man. There are very few websites which provide the amount of detail an experienced handler (or breeder, in the case of rabbits) can provide. Research-level reading, which is what I did before bringing a bunny home is--I agree--sadly lacking among people in general.

KKRabbitry":1zqz2bgn said:
I cannot advocate them because they recommend ALL rabbits must be spayed/neutered, regardless of potential health risks, even if it is not really necessary.
Agree.

KKRabbitry":1zqz2bgn said:
I cannot advocate them because they paint anyone who breeds rabbits, especially meat rabbits, or shows rabbits, to be a terrible person.
Agree. I recommended these particular people to RT when I saw them attacked on other forums.

KKRabbitry":1zqz2bgn said:
I cannot advocate them because they recommend always keeping a rabbit on a solid floor, something which can actually be harmful to the rabbit if not done correctly.
I've copied this from http://rabbit.org (the HRS website) under "Housing":

HRS":1zqz2bgn said:
Rabbits were not designed to live on wire floors–they’re hard on their feet (which have no pads like those of cats or dogs). If you must use a cage with a wire floor, you need to provide your rabbit with a resting board or rug for her to sit on, otherwise she will spend all of her time in her litterbox. But this is not idea[l].

You can find cages with slatted plastic floors, which are more comfortable, or you can use a solid floor. As long as your rabbit has a litterbox in the corner that he chooses as his bathroom, there shouldn’t be much of a mess to clean up. But ex-pens or other types of situations are much easier to find, are roomier, and are friendlier for both your rabbit and yourself.

I ask myself what on earth Angora rabbits are supposed to do??? Sit in their own long coat in a litter box with hay and "whatever"? Lie down in hay??? And let's not overlook HRS's statement about "hard on their feet," as if rabbits have no protective fur on their feet/legs....

So we agree here too, pretty much.

KKRabbitry":1zqz2bgn said:
I cannot advocate them because they tend to go beyond simply advocating for humane treatment of rabbits, and advocate for animal "rights".
The last one is really the biggest reason.
This is *the* divisive question of our time in animal rescue/rehab circles: re-defining Animal Welfare now that the term "animal rights" has almost displaced it. I don't want to derail this thread by discussing the legal standing at law or lack thereof of animals, but when I find a perfectly serious article starting off with "HRS’s most ardent rabbit guardians accept an un-spoken philosophy that live animals are more important than our household furnishings" and continuing with "We expect to replace our material possessions as we indulge our bunnies. But the reality is that many people don’t share our values. They surrender their rabbits to shelters because they don’t want their homes destroyed. For seasoned rabbit people, there is no tough choice between the bunny and the couch (bunny wins)" (complete article here), it sounds pretty much...ah...bass ackwards, if you know what I mean.

As decent, caring, ethical people, we have responsibilities to provide our animals with clean and safe housing, proper nutrition, required medical care (however defined--bottom line, don't make animals suffer unnecessarily), and other basics, e.g., grooming (nails, coat) as necessary for health. This is Animal Welfare, and responsible people practice it. An amazing number of people who holler about "Animal Rights" don't even take care of animals or provide them basic housing / nutrition / medical care / grooming--they just attack the rest of us for doing so and thereby "exploiting" animals which have been domesticated for hundreds, sometimes thousands, of years. :angry:

Thanks again. :)
 
DogCatMom,
Thank you, also, for a thoughtful and polite reply!
I love that we can discuss these things on RT like civilized people and actually get somewhere ;)

It sounds like we all have the best interest of our rabbits and animals in mind, even most of the HRS folks, we just disagree on how to go about it.
All we can do is continue to be open minded, continue to learn, share our knowledge with others when we can, and encourage everyone to do their research, and ask questions.
I know when I first got into rabbits it was so confusing learning information online, everyone said something different. In the end we met a few wonderful rabbit breeders that took me in under their wing, and mentored me through those first few years. Couldn't have done it without them.

I understand that feeling; I've been correcting people's misunderstandings of the needs of Bernese Mtn. Dogs and other large breeds for 15 years, plus (to a much lesser extent) those of cats, for most of my adult life. It does get old, but I keep thinking, "I may be helping a future dog/cat avoid a terrible situation." It's not much, but it helps keep me going.

I think it's great that you take time to share your knowledge of dogs/cats, even in person!
That is really the exact way I feel about rabbits, and that's why I get involved in discussion like this. :-D

Thanks for participating in this great discussion!

__________ Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:14 pm __________

this is actually the new standard for dealing with malocclusions. I've heard it often on the pet rabbit boards and queried it, and it seems that rabbits adapt to it fairly well but need to be fed for the first bit after the surgery.

They do better than the occasional tooth trimming.

I figure if it helps the rabbit it is better than me rescuing bunnies with malocclusion that get trimmed once or month or fewer... leaving the rabbit to slowly starve the rest of the time because it can't get food into it's mouth or chew because the front teeth prevent it. I've gotten one too many skinny as a bone rabbit in with bad teeth....

Thanks, ladysown, for pointing that out.
I had never heard of it before I met the person who's bunny died.

Still not convinced, but I will do some more research on that one..............
 
luvabunny":20yswh4d said:
I'm not saying I do or don't advocate "pet" rabbit sites, however, I'm on the outs here in saying I don't totally disagree with the originally posted flyer.

I also don't entirely disagree with the fact that some people will do any and everything to keep their "pet" rabbit alive. To most people, when you want something to get well, you take it to the doctor, or in an animals case, the vet. That's the way these people are wired, and nothing is going to change them.

I totally agree with numbers 3, 5, 6 and 8. Everyone knows rabbits WILL fight if put together, and there are very few rabbits under 5 lbs I would recommend for kids. I've also had it personally happen that a tame, well handled, show rabbit kicked hard enough to break it's own back, and while I've never personally had a rabbit for 10 years, I assume a well cared for, healthy house rabbit could live that long.

Everyone is a newbie at some point and while I do recommend advice from an experienced breeder over a vet in some things, the fact remains that many people get their "pets" from pet or farm stores and don't actually know any experienced breeders. Personally, I would rather those with issues contact a vet and not let their animals suffer. The main issue with that are those unscrupulous vets who see dollar signs above actual care. Again, those who continue to rely solely on vets and do not educated themselves are not going to change and neither are the unscrupulous vets.

Yes, I agree rabbits are livestock and as such, I have no issue with culling, eating, and treating them as livestock, however, those who see them as pets only will never view them as livestock, and again, nothing is going to change their minds.

Everything the house rabbit people claim is not true and some of it is downright false, but not all of it is wrong either. While I don't agree with all of it, and there are a few zealots who ruin everything, there are a few good pointers to help those who absolutely have no clue.

Luvabunny, I don't mean I don't advocate rabbits as pets....I think they can make great pets. It's the pet-related "rabbit care" sites that I have issues with.

And I have compassion for folks that love their pet and don't want it to die. I don't have compassion for vet offices that prey on that love and bilk people out of THOUSANDS of dollars.

I did say that not everything was wrong about the poster. I agree, they do fight...it's the whole "non bonded" thing, as if bonding is a magic spell to make rabbits not fight. It is very difficult to bond rabbits not raised together. And they aren't advocating over 5lb rabbits. (I agree with you that the dwarf breeds are probably not the best for kids) They are advocating GIANT breeds. Saying that all rabbits kick and scratch when picked up is a bit of a stretch....maybe if they are picked up incorrectly...

What I am saying is that they put this stuff out like it is GOSPEL TRUTH and people swallow it without ever attempting to learn if it really IS true or not. It does pet owner's a disservice.
 
KKRabbitry":thshh5fv said:
Getting back to the original post, the topic was "Why I cannot advocate "pet" related rabbit websites.

I cannot advocate them because their suggestions for diet can be misleading if not read very thoroughly.
I cannot advocate them because they recommend ALL rabbits must be spayed/neutered, regardless of potential health risks, even if it is not really necessary.
I cannot advocate them because they paint anyone who breeds rabbits, especially meat rabbits, or shows rabbits, to be a terrible person.
I cannot advocate them because they recommend always keeping a rabbit on a solid floor, something which can actually be harmful to the rabbit if not done correctly.
I cannot advocate them because they tend to go beyond simply advocating for humane treatment of rabbits, and advocate for animal "rights".
The last one is really the biggest reason.

Thank you KKRabbitry, that is exactly what I meant. This post wasn't a bash against pet owners, Vets, or the HRS. It was in response to the HUNDREDS of pet related sites that are full of faulty information.
 
DogCatMom":c2l85d4w said:
I only have the experiences of members of RT to go by, but there are enough reports of "my doe [scratched/bit/tried to bite/attacked] me" that it seems, on the whole, not to be a rare behavior. Not everyday behavior, but not all that rare, either. I'm happy for you that you have such well-behaved bunnies! :)
Just keep in mind that we have nearly 2700 members, many of which are quite active, so a few posts per month of rabbit biting/scratching is pretty tiny. :)
 
In general: EVERY website has a slant, an agenda, based on its creator/users' beliefs, experiences, histories. This is not new. Polarization of people with similar and contrasting views on a subject- also not new. I tend to seek out sites where views of all spectrums are at least tolerated, if not encouraged. These sites allow one to expand their knowledge base and discuss alternatives that might not have been proposed on sites with a lock down attitude.

In specific: the lock down attitude is my main concern with many of the "pet" related sites. You see a lot of ALWAYS and NEVER. You don't see a lot of discussion of ways to do things outside of the "norm". There is generally ONE accepted and expected way to do each thing, one way to feed, one way to house, one way to handle injuries. If someone dares to mention an alternative, they are shouted down and berated for not following the pack. Once someone new has read through a handful of threads on one of these sites, their learning stops dead.

Stop and think about it for a minute. How many times have you gone to one of the "pet" sites, read a thread on housing rabbits and thought, "Wow, I never would have thought of that?". Now, take a look at some of the threads here and ask yourself the same question. So many come to mind. Which site has the potential to teach you more? Do any of us really know every single thing we need to know about rabbits? Will any of us never be surprised by something and need advice? Will any of us never need to try something "different" because of our circumstances? I know how I would answer. And a lot of the "pet" sites would not be where I would turn to.
 
I have to agree with Marinea. I did look at many upon many "pet" sites when I was looking for new hutch designs and the best way to house my rabbits. This was all before I got any rabbits. Anyway all of the sites said that NO rabbit should be kept in a cage, that they where all too small for even the smallest rabbits. That you should instead rabbit proof your house and allow the rabbit to be free roaming. I have both small children and herding dogs, so not an ideal situation for house bunnies.

I ended up coming to this site because of grumpy's posts about his rabbit barn. I liked the fact that I found so many ways to build hutches and cages from this site and the fact that it had different sections for different TYPES of rabbit people. It's also great because you do get several views from many different aspects of raising rabbits that I feel I am getting a better education then if I had stayed on a "pet" site.

So I guess I want to say, "Thank you" to RT for being here and allowing those like myself to actually LEARN about rabbits and not be bottle necked into such strict "rules" of how to keep rabbits.
 
OneAcreFarm":1qco1l7s said:
What I am saying is that they put this stuff out like it is GOSPEL TRUTH and people swallow it without ever attempting to learn if it really IS true or not. It does pet owner's a disservice.


Exactly. That bothers me. Some of us on RT have pretty firm beliefs about rabbits, but we do respect each others opinions, though there are some things we universally agree should/ should not be done.

When I got my first rabbit, I knew nothing about "breeders," did not even know there were rabbits shows, or breeds beyond hollands and mini Rex. I do remember seeing the first Lionheads. The internet was just beginning to become popular, the only real source of info was books on rabbit care in pet stores. Now if you grew up in the country with 4H and farms, then you can see it differently, but living in the city and just getting into the computer age, that was what there was. You can imagine the information I got from those books. I ran back and forth to the vet, until i learned to do some basic things for myself to keep my animals happy.
 
squidpop":18w21lrf said:
I used to work for a publishing company on a kids magazine and the challenge for the editors was to cut the information down into bite size chunks- so kids could digest it but also to fit more illustrations on the page- so on kids publications things get dummied down so much the info is isn't very valid. I think smaller rabbits like dutch and mini lops are good for kids if you can find ones that are calmer because not as much to clean up- their water bottles don't go empty as fast you don't have to forage for as much greens- there's not as much poo and pee and smell.
Also depends on the kid. I have a friend that we gave a rabbit to. I knew it was the perfect match for her and her, lets say high energy kids. When they were over, holding different ones, most of the rabbits were running up the kids and mom's shoulder. One I knew was super ladied back and I honestly wondered if she was a little slow. Was sitting still and chittering happily, no matter, the high pitched laughter or bopping around, while waiting for their turn to hold it. I've seen them together several times since. She's all grown up now, I can still see it was the perfect match. She's half Polish, half Himalayan dwarf btw.

__________ Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:11 pm __________

skysthelimit":18w21lrf said:
DogCatMom":18w21lrf said:
Rabbit Handling/Temperament:
I've also read many tales of woe here about scratched arms from simply reaching into cages to change water/feed dishes. These scratching/biting rabbits aren't even being picked up; they're simply being served. Should they then all be sacrificed?! What genetic bottle-necks that would create! :shock: Or should rabbit-keepers perhaps wear protective gear, gear which I've seen available for sale and which wouldn't be that difficult to make from scrap leather or canvas? esp. when the scratchers are those does who "want to be bred" or "have just been bred" or are otherwise "hormonal." It doesn't seem right that a breeding doe would be put down for scratching her human when she's acting like a rabbit and protecting her space. It seems more reasonable that the human would protect him/herself with protective arm guards (vambraces) or leather gloves with long cuffs.

Not buying this at all.
I had two female, unaltered rabbits as pets. Neither ever got "hormonal" and tried to bite me at any time. I have maybe 20 does and 4 different breeds at the moment. Only two does ever attacked or scratched me while putting my hand in the cage. I've had young does, adolescent does, hormonal does, pregnant does, nursing does. Some say it's a hormonal thing, but I'm not seeing that. It's not always a rearing issue either, because this has happened with a doe I raised from birth. Her mother was like that as well.
I've only had two bucks do this in the past 3 years. They were adults, had been bred. I wouldn't call them hormonal. Raised from birth or very close. One has adult offspring, which aren't particular nice rabbits so far.
It's best to eliminate that from my lines as quick as possible, since I have so many other does and bucks that are calm and affectionate.

I have yet to have a spraying buck.

I have never been bitten or scratched by a doe either, who is "hormonal". I've had ones that were protective when it came to the other does, but not us people. My daughter and I do a lot of handling of does and babies. I think that's why we haven had a problem.
As for the first post: It is sad if a person can not figure out a way to care for an animal so they just put them down. I would think most rabbit owners care enough to figure it out and not just toss it.

We have one buck who I've said since he was a couple of weeks old that he thinks he's a wild rabbit. Now that he's reached maturity he's a rumbler. He can not be with any other male. It goes beyond the normal, which I allow. Some chasing, nipping and mounting, because that's the only why they'll work out the issue. He's relentless. We're gonna have to fix him, in order to keep him, the way we keep rabbits together. Hopefully that will work. I really like him and he's beautiful. I don't want to sell or give him away because he's not everyone's cup of tea for a pet rabbit. I wouldn't want him to just be locked up all the time because he's got that wild streak.

__________ Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:15 pm __________

Sagebrush":18w21lrf said:
I have to agree with Marinea. I did look at many upon many "pet" sites when I was looking for new hutch designs and the best way to house my rabbits. This was all before I got any rabbits. Anyway all of the sites said that NO rabbit should be kept in a cage, that they where all too small for even the smallest rabbits. That you should instead rabbit proof your house and allow the rabbit to be free roaming. I have both small children and herding dogs, so not an ideal situation for house bunnies.

I ended up coming to this site because of grumpy's posts about his rabbit barn. I liked the fact that I found so many ways to build hutches and cages from this site and the fact that it had different sections for different TYPES of rabbit people. It's also great because you do get several views from many different aspects of raising rabbits that I feel I am getting a better education then if I had stayed on a "pet" site.

So I guess I want to say, "Thank you" to RT for being here and allowing those like myself to actually LEARN about rabbits and not be bottle necked into such strict "rules" of how to keep rabbits.

It's been my observation that even if you don't have a hutch, cage, carrier, box or whatever a rabbit will find it's own favorite hide away(s). It's not mean to have a cage it gives them security. They're not people. Sometimes people see animal's emotional needs as their own would be. <br /><br /> __________ Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:26 pm __________ <br /><br /> I came across one recently that claimed they guy who runs it is the foremost in Rabbit care. Right away on the first page was false assertions. Comparing rabbits kept inside to rabbits kept outside. There were two columns, the one with the list of rabbits kept outside was things like, ignored, lonely, lack of exercise, malnutrition, shorter life span, higher rates of cancer, ungroomed ect. As if, if you keep your rabbit(s) outside all of these apply. The column for rabbits who are kept inside, of course had all the good flip side of a well cared for rabbit. It side had things about how, rabbits are our friends and all this. It took a lot in me not to tell this guy off.
 
DogCatMom wrote:
Rabbit Handling/Temperament:
I've also read many tales of woe here about scratched arms from simply reaching into cages to change water/feed dishes. These scratching/biting rabbits aren't even being picked up; they're simply being served. Should they then all be sacrificed?! What genetic bottle-necks that would create! :shock: Or should rabbit-keepers perhaps wear protective gear, gear which I've seen available for sale and which wouldn't be that difficult to make from scrap leather or canvas? esp. when the scratchers are those does who "want to be bred" or "have just been bred" or are otherwise "hormonal." It doesn't seem right that a breeding doe would be put down for scratching her human when she's acting like a rabbit and protecting her space. It seems more reasonable that the human would protect him/herself with protective arm guards (vambraces) or leather gloves with long cuffs.

Yes, I am one of those that had a female that was aggressive with her. She would go for blood if I opened her cage. It was our NZW Alice. We bred her and she continued to be aggressive with me. Actually she got worse after having her first litter. She would lunge at me and try to scratch or bite me. Now with Bob she was sweet as pie. Bob watched me and saw I did nothing to trigger it. I did nothing that should have resulted in the aggression I was getting. We could not figure it out.

I was the only one going out to feed and water the rabbits for two weeks. I made a big show of giving treats to the rabbits around Alice. I petted them and gave them treats. I made sure she saw I had one for her everyday. I would open her cage and if she got aggressive No treat. If she allowed me to do what I needed to do and did not get aggressive I gave her a treat. After two weeks it apparently clicked. She is no longer aggressive with me. Alice allows me to pet her, handle any babies she has, reach in her cage, etc... No aggression unless her head butting my hand for petting is considered aggressive. Then she is the most aggressive doe we have. Hans is then the most aggressive buck we have. You have to pet him or he will tear his cage apart.

For the Spay / Neuter issue. I believe people need to do what they feel is best. 3 of my cats are fixed. 1 because he was a brat until we got him fixed. The other 2 were adopted from the SPCA. The other 2 cats are not, but no chance of kittens from the boys and they have not sprayed once. The Miles puppy is intact. Most of my animals are not fixed. Some need it for health reasons, some need it for behavior issues. Some are fine as is. We do it on a case by case situation. Not a one size fits all.

I honestly try to do the best I can by the animals in my care. I fail sometimes, but I try to learn from my failures and avoid them in the future. I am not a big fan of doctors or lawyers, but sometimes they are needed. Sometimes they are the best to deal with an issue. I don't expect everybody to be able to fix their computer, their car, plumbing, electrical, etc... Just because I and my husband can, does not mean everybody can. Some people are best directed to a vet or electrician or computer specialist....
 
Yes, I am one of those that had a female that was aggressive with her. She would go for blood if I opened her cage. It was our NZW Alice. We bred her and she continued to be aggressive with me. Actually she got worse after having her first litter. She would lunge at me and try to scratch or bite me. Now with Bob she was sweet as pie. Bob watched me and saw I did nothing to trigger it. I did nothing that should have resulted in the aggression I was getting. We could not figure it out

I had one of these turn up. A good doe was given to me, and she spastically attacked me for no reason every time I came near her. Couldn't fill the food dish. First litter, aggression...second litter, I was still getting bit trying to fill the feed bowl. At this point I decided I couldn't keep her, but...there was something about her that told me it wasn't her that was the problem, it was ME. ( I suspect this doe just felt she could bully me!)

So...I returned her to her breeder, since she was an excellent mother.

A year later? Never one ounce of aggression, never a nip. She's been a perfect sweetheart ever since.
In other words, it didn't it have anything to do with hormones.
I'll admit...I'm sweet to all my girls, treating and handling them very gently. I can see how a bossy tempered doe would see me as a pushover. It isn't the kind of pet that I would want to produce though, and I have enough sweet does to want nothing to do with one who thinks she can push me around!
 
Fernie":2tyugfg1 said:
All of Alice's babies have been lovers. Our NZB doe was that way too. But she passed away after loosing her entire first litter.

Do you think in her case it was more of an individual personality quirk than it is a hereditary trait than?
That bossy doe of mine, well, her kits were harder to handle since it was a huge hassle to try and mess with them until after they were weaned!

I did notice that the very nervous SF doe I bought was also teaching her kits to be afraid of us, but once separated from their mother they would calm down and learn to love attention just like all of the rest of the juniors.

Still, I would have never given an aggressive rabbit to anyone other than the breeder who produced her, with a full explanation of the problem I was having. In general, I just don't have time to mess with animals who make me bleed.
 
I don't go to pet websites. My rabbits are here for production.
They have to earn their keep.
I do have my favorites though and every once in awhile I think a
about bringing one in the house for a pet. BUT...the hubby would
not like it, and we have a dog who would be constantly sniffing the
bunny. So it won't work here.

I do sell some bunnies for pets. So I like to have calm easy going
personalities for the breeding adults. If I find one that has issues,
I do give them chances for me, to figure out the problem. I recently
sold 2 adult does that were totally grumpy for me. Both were bred.
The new owner is very happy with them.

Recently one doe did bite me. My fault, not her's. I put her in with
another doe while I was doing things in her cage. Wrong move.
They were going at it, when I put my hand in to grab the one I wanted.
She is fine all by herself, and due any day now.

I read online to learn things. This site has like minded people to bounce
ideas off of. I am very thankful I found my human herd :)
 
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